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Old 02-27-2017, 04:33 AM   #1
Cromwell
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Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

I finally published an article I've been writing now for a couple of months about UFC and Aikido. It took a couple of months to write because I wanted to honestly express how I feel about the reputation of Aikido in the martial arts world.

Like most of the articles I wrote in the past, some people like it, and some people don't. That's fine with me. That's part of the job, and that is what happens when one voices their thoughts in writing and in public.

I was happy that most of the Aikidoka that was engaged by the article liked and shared it, I guess they agree with me.

With a thick skin, I also read the comments section. Some are valid and some don't even bother reading the article, they just wanted to comment their point of view. That's also fine.

With this article and with this particular subject of UFC and Aikido, I noticed something I believe is worth noting in the comments section. A lot of Aikidokas (if they were practising Aikidoka) don't believe that Aikido will stand a chance as a martial art or even as a self-defence system against violence.

Yes the UFC is arguably and maybe currently one of the toughest places to test a martial artist's skills, that besides the point I am trying to put across. What I noticed are commenters giving three, four, five reasons why Aikido doesn't work as a martial art. Let me say this... you only need one reason for anything not to work, not five.

My concern is this... Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not. I am planning on practicing Aikido (like Osensei did) until I am in my 90s.

Always Good Aikido
Technique, Psychology and Strategy

http://goodaikido.com

http://www.northsydneyaikido.com.au//
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:25 AM   #2
grondahl
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

I think it´s reasonable to understand the limits of your practice. I also think that most of the practitioners that are interested in applications have already either added another martial art to their practice or jumped ship completly.

Btw: I think you need to fact check your article. Ex: sambo was quite common in mma and all basic aikido waza that you will spend 90% of you mat time on is legal in common mma-rules.

Last edited by grondahl : 02-27-2017 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:36 AM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

I think it would be good for aikido people to lose faith in the art and substitute it for knowledge.

Regarding the article... I didn't liked it.
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:04 AM   #4
shuckser
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Aikido takes ages to learn. By the time you've frustrated yourself with the kata long enough to discover the principles as they might apply to a fight, you're old enough to know better than to step into a ring in the first place.
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:13 AM   #5
fatebass21
 
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Understanding the potential weaknesses of something in a particular context or situation is one thing but you both compare aikido to something specific and make generalizations at the same time in your post.

I agree with what Peter states about understanding the limits of your (or any other) practice. That said, its also important not to 'get stuck' and assume that one thing applies to X situation/s.

Are there instances where aikido can be effective as a self-defense system in handling violence? Absolutely
Are there instances where aikido can NOT be effective as a self-defense system in handling violence? Absolutely

No faith lost here...

Chris Sawyer
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:14 AM   #6
fatebass21
 
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Conan Theobald wrote: View Post
Aikido takes ages to learn. By the time you've frustrated yourself with the kata long enough to discover the principles as they might apply to a fight, you're old enough to know better than to step into a ring in the first place.
nice

Chris Sawyer
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:18 AM   #7
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

BTW,

"The current (2016) Russian National Knife Fighting Champion is a Godan (5th Degree Black Belt) in Iwama Ryu"

So being good at this validates aikido? Please ellaborate.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:51 AM   #8
leonagastya
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Like what the other people in this thread have said. I believe that the Aikidoka are not losing faith in their own martial art but instead understand the weaknesses that come with Aikido. For example, as a beginner I can see that Aikido lacks this form of "real life preparation/training" as in my dojo we rarely try to practice Aikido in a street fight situation. Moreover I can see that a lot of the Aikido moves are very complex and require years to master to be able to perform perfectly and effectively. But this is why many other people take another martial art to supplement their Aikido such as BJJ, Judo, etc. as no martial art is perfect.
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Old 02-27-2017, 12:59 PM   #9
GovernorSilver
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

I agree with most of the points of the article.

I would make some tweaks to the "What is MMA" section. Change the heading to "Why I don't like the term Mixed Martial Arts" or something - that might be a better lead into what you think a real Mixed Martial Artist is.

IMO, fighting and self-defense are two different things. The objective of a "fight" is to overcome an opponent for some kind of prize, whether it's a monetary one, your pride, whatever: you're not defending yourself at all here, you're just an aggressor contending with another aggressor. The objective of self-defense is to avoid a fight as much as possible, and if that fails, get out of it ASAP. This is explained in detail here: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/AreMASD.htm
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:20 PM   #10
sorokod
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
BTW,

"The current (2016) Russian National Knife Fighting Champion is a Godan (5th Degree Black Belt) in Iwama Ryu"
At least one of the lady medallists is Iwama Ryu yudansha as well.

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Old 02-28-2017, 01:30 AM   #11
grondahl
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
At least one of the lady medallists is Iwama Ryu yudansha as well.
So Iwama aikido breeds a competitive spirit? Or what are the point of these examples?
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:23 AM   #12
sorokod
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
So Iwama aikido breeds a competitive spirit? Or what are the point of these examples?
Best to contact the relevant club with your question.

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Old 02-28-2017, 05:39 AM   #13
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Maybe OP's point is akidoka can't play sports because they train for "the street" except when they play sports because they train for "the street"... or something like that.
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Old 02-28-2017, 06:25 PM   #14
MrIggy
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Since i have respect for Iwama Aikido i will give a sincere review:

Quote:
The UFC is an international sport, that is practised in a bloody battleground called the octagon.
The UFC is not a gentleman's sport. It is bloody, brutal, and unforgiving. It is a real blood sport."
The UFC is an organization which organizes television and mass events in the "sport" of MMA (mixed martial arts), as you most likely know. I'm not writing this to be a smart ass but the fact is that the mma d**k riders will eat your soul out with this, so be careful with future articles.

Quote:
The rise of the UFC has rendered and painted many traditional martial arts such as kungfu, capoeira, krav-maga, sambo, and Aikido as second rate martial arts. The rise of UFC also disregarded all the weapons arts such as kendo, jodo, and arnis as pointless and not practical.
True for: Aikido (besides the fact that certain techniques used frequently in mma can be seen in Aikido like ude garami aka double wrist lock aka kimura), Capoeira (besides some of the spectacular kick knockouts in mma matches) and Kung fu (Wing Chung, Wu Shu). Bagua, Tai Chi and other internal arts they don't even consider martial arts, rather health systems.

They have "respect" for Systema and Krav Maga as "eclectic systems" for individuals who don't have time to put in the effort to train in the "real martial arts", but nevertheless they consider them as the ones mentioned earlier. In short, Krav Maga==hit to the groin, Systema==Russian Aikido.

Sambo (Combat Sambo), however, is considered a real martial art because off the way it's practiced. Basically a cross-sport between Judo and wrestling, with more emphasis on the wrestling part with leg locks. Not to mention the famous Sambo exponents who won the most "prestigious" mma organizations, Fedor Emelianenko (PRIDE), Oleg Taktarov (UFC 6) and the more current serious aspirant for a UFC title Khabib Nurmagomedov. There is even a trend in the MMA organizations in America of moving in fighters with backgrounds in Sambo and Combat Sambo.

For Kendo and Jodo the overall opinion is "they are ok if you wan't to play samurai". Arnis had much respect as a martial art, because of training groups like the Dog Brothers, but lost much of it when they started doing these types of competitions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRHhC4w7Nw0 .
Quote:
Most Aikidokas are pacifists and don’t want to be in the UFC. Believe it or not, most people that do Aikido, don’t like fighting and don’t like thuggery. We avoid unnecessary violence, especially the ego fights and the drunken fights. Yes we train for self-defence and we spend decades perfecting our martial art Aikido, however, we really are not thugs. Almost all of us are pacifists.
That's the problem. I am not saying we should go out and compete in bloody competitions such as UFC or Vale Tudo but at least in the dojo there should be free sparing and cross sparring/training, not to mention more strength and endurance exercises. Just remember the beginnings of O'Sensei and mostly the words of his son: "My father was not a pacifist.". Even pacifists have to use force to keep the attackers at bay. Off course if you can avoid the confrontation in the first place that would be the best solution but if you can't...

Quote:
Did you know that Aikido has no rules (that’s why we don’t have competition) and we use a lot of small joint techniques? We practice in a controlled manner to avoid injuries and learn in the most effective way. We practise wrist locks, finger locks, neck twists, wrist twists, lock and throw techniques (E.G. Shiho + Koshi Nage) and atemi (shots to glands and pressure points – this includes an atemi to the balls). If you want to know how does an Aikido small joint wrist lock feels like, just ask for a nikyo at your nearest good Aikido dojo.
Shodokan Aikido has competitions, there are benefits from these events whether we like them or not, just like there are side effects. The main issue with Aikido practice is that it's too much controlled aka prearranged and with that type of training it's impossible for most people to get the most effective practice because they never use the training they get to the most effective way. I understand the side effects of the fully realistic training methods but if we are going to practice in a martial art then sometimes the training has to get real but most of all a lot smarter then in the current practice, regardless of style. As for the rules and whatnot. There are enough dangerous, far more dangerous things done in MMA matches and different types of MMA organizations, not to mention the physical and mental preparation of MMA athletes, that render the good old excuse "i am to dangerous for sports fighting" devious, to say the least.

Quote:
Besides the peaceful Aikidokas around the world that practices the art, Aikido is used daily by police, riot squads, the military, SAS, Marines, and Special Units. Aikido is used on the streets. Aikido is used on the battlefield. The martial Aikido is not really for competition (except for Tomiki style, because it is heavily influenced by judo). This ‘no-competition’ concept is one of the unique things about Aikido that people don’t get, there is no sport-type competition.
And how come in most situations, all of the people from those types of units, police, marines etc. can use Aikido to stop a person without causing severe bodily harm while the average Aikidoka, who actually trains full time in Aikido not just as another side skill, can't? Full respect to the exceptions.

Quote:
If Aikido was used severely, the fight will be over quickly with broken joints and bones. (This is not good for the UFC for the sake of ratings). Because of the possible devastating effects, we have a peaceful philosophy as a guideline when to use the martial art of Aikido.
Bones get broken, joints get dismantled, severe knockouts happen all the time in MMA organizations like the UFC. The whole point isn't that it happens, it's how to get it to happen. Regarding the video of the Chinese SWAT team, how many Aikidoka you know would have the nerve to pull off something like that and more importantly, how many do you know that CAN pull if of, out of the thousands (millions from various styles) you know practicing Aikido? That's the most important thing of all in training, to get to the point were you can use your skill fully aware of the consequence but knowing that there isn't a better alternative in that moment and situation. It's called instinct, experience is also a term that might be used but not in the sense i am writing here, which comes from adequate training that most Aikido people simply don't get.

I can understand softer and easier approach for beginners in Aikido, based on my own personal experience, but the feeling of seeing a 1st kyu (brown belt) going at a technique with the same tepidity as a 5th of 4th kyu is just appalling.

Quote:
My fourth answer won’t really make sense to the UFC guys because it is outside what they think are ‘real martial arts’ – the octagon. The Aikidoka is trained with weapons (ken, jo, tanto, and shuriken), loves using weapons, and will use a weapon if confronted with violence, especially if they are defending their friends, family, and love ones.
Again, smarter training is required, especially with the tanto and jo. Shuriken?

Quote:
Most people that asked the question aren’t even martial artists. Almost all that asked are couch potato UFC fans who only watch tv and has never stepped on the ring nor the mat. Having said all of this, we don’t really care if the UFC nor the MMA world gives us the blessing and anoints us with the title of a ‘real martial art’. We really don’t give a shit. We will just keep on training.
I am the first to say that i am not concerned with idiots on youtube, and therefore with UFC couch potato fans. The problem is when that same damn couch potato fan can take on a "trained" Aikidoka. That's were the problem is. The couch potato fan should be ALWAYS dismantled by any Aikidoka, even those who don't aspire to be the next Ueshiba, Shirata, Shioda or whom ever of the legends. They should still be obliged by their training to take that couch potato fan out of any perspective of being a threat of any kind. That's the approach that is missing from today's Aikido.

Quote:
Oh and by the way, Mix Martial Arts is not new, Osensei Ueshiba was technically an MMA practitioner because he has mastered many different types of martial arts, and he fused all them into Aikido. The ancient samurai warriors learned many martial arts to survive a battle. Also, a lot of Aikido practitioners came from karate, judo, and boxing. Most good Aikidoka that I know, practices more than two martial arts. The current (2016) Russian National Knife Fighting Champion is a Godan (5th Degree Black Belt) in Iwama Ryu.
And with whom do you think O'Sensei would train today? Aikido people or MMA people and why?

Ps. I listened to that ten minute part of the Lenny Sly interview, when he said O'Sensei had a tenth degree black belt in Daito ryu is when i decided not to listen to the rest. I wish him all the best but he didn't address the serious issues of Aikido anymore then anybody else does these days. Just the good old populist approach.

Last edited by MrIggy : 02-28-2017 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 02-28-2017, 06:46 PM   #15
rugwithlegs
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

When I went to the blog site, I actually saw no comments?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixe...ial_arts_rules
I read this on banned techniques, and it sounds like a lot of what we do is not allowed. Kaitenage is a strike to the back of the head as is iriminage, iriminage does make contact with the throat, and iriminage and shihinage are documented as being associated with skull and neck injuries described as pile-drivers. We pin the uke face down most of the time and stay upright again so we can strike the back of the head. There is so much more that MMA has rules against than our using wrist locks.

Losing faith? No. Losing interest in the same lines being repeated since the 90s, yes. I am tired of the MMA marketing game.
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Old 03-01-2017, 01:47 AM   #16
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Shuriken? .
Yes, it's not uncommon in the Iwama style.
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Old 03-01-2017, 01:53 AM   #17
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I read this on banned techniques, and it sounds like a lot of what we do is not allowed. .
Aikido techniques are legal in Vale Tudo.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:44 AM   #18
MrIggy
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Yes, it's not uncommon in the Iwama style.
Interesting.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:59 AM   #19
grondahl
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Interesting.
Saito Morihiro were a long time practitioner of Negishi ryu shuriken-jutsu.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:17 PM   #20
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Saito Morihiro were a long time practitioner of Negishi ryu shuriken-jutsu.
I know of one other aikido exponent who used to practice this art. He was Chiba Shihan's father-in-law (M Sekiya) and when he came here, we practiced in my old house using a dart board. When Morihiro Saito visited London, many things went wrong, but one thing that went right was the shuriken practice in the evening, again with a dart board. M Sekiya was there and their style was completely different.

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Old 03-01-2017, 06:07 PM   #21
jurasketu
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
There is so much more that MMA has rules against than our using wrist locks.
Yes. Exactly...

And APPARENTLY you aren't allowed to use a knife or other object to harm the opponent.

The matches take place on a mat with a soft ring so that participates don't take serious damage from being slammed or dragged across a hard or rough surface.

Try doing Aikido in a kitchen. It gets messy.

Ultimately, MMA is a sporting match for entertainment. The rules help protect the athletes from serious injuries (even though they still suffer injuries).

I think people (including many Aikidoka) tend to think of "technique" as Aikido. Technique is mostly standard jujitsu. Aikido is the moving around bit... Blending with energy or something another...

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:57 PM   #22
MrIggy
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Saito Morihiro were a long time practitioner of Negishi ryu shuriken-jutsu.
Interesting, thanks for the info.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:03 AM   #23
phitruong
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

i wondered if you can substitute glock-jutsu or smith&wesson-jutsu for shuriken-jutsu to complement your aikido. i am always curious of the vents on both side of the hakama. would it slow down the quick draw?

oh ya! about losing faith. i don't have any faith in any martial arts to begin with, so there is nothing to lose. marital art is a different story though, even if you begin with nothing, you could still losing alot.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:38 PM   #24
Currawong
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i wondered if you can substitute glock-jutsu or smith&wesson-jutsu for shuriken-jutsu to complement your aikido. i am always curious of the vents on both side of the hakama. would it slow down the quick draw?

oh ya! about losing faith. i don't have any faith in any martial arts to begin with, so there is nothing to lose. marital art is a different story though, even if you begin with nothing, you could still losing alot.
It's funny you should bring this up. I think the problem is that it comes down to what we are practicing for and the kind of person we might encounter in a real fight not being like we are. The following article came up in my FB feed, probably via Bernie Lau, which I think parallels the problems we face, but for police firearms training:

http://handguncombatives.blogspot.jp...ke-you-do.html

Quote:
Do you truly understand the individual you may fight? Violence is part of our society whether you want it or not. Bad guys will bring it to you… do you understand how they think? Many armed citizens and cops like to think they do…maybe they have even attended a lecture on the subject…but in reality they don't. I have attended lectures on this subject taught by "professionals" who have never spent time with a felon, merely studies literature on the subject and became an "expert". It's like the students who attended a bunch of shooting schools and then becomes an instructor, they understand how to shoot but they don't know shit about fighting! In both cases, you end up with the wrong information to prepare with.

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Old 03-08-2017, 05:20 AM   #25
Gonzalo
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Re: Is the Aikidoka losing faith in their own martial art? I hope not.

Aikidoka loosing faith?? Are they really walking the "do"?

Is the "do"of Aikido going to an mma ring and prove to be the strongest, and bloodiest mother.....r of all times?

Thank God it is not!! So, i don't understand that loosing faith thing!,..
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