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Old 02-09-2006, 07:52 AM   #26
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Your not taking me on a filthy Shudothugs mat Sean!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:20 AM   #27
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
I always thought all British gentlemen were good sportsmen and I still believe in British fairness, especially in aikido and there especially on the mat.
If only it were so Dirk!
Although we are a pretty fair and tolerant people by nature, much of the old school 'good sportsmanship' has long since vanished. You only have to watch the antics of some of our grossly overpaid and spoiled footballers to understand this.

As for aikido, the UK as someone has already mentioned has about 50 different organisations. Last year I did attend a huge celebration in honour of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and 50 years of British Aikido, and it all seemed pretty healthy to me!

Cheers,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:23 AM   #28
Amelia Smith
 
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Dojo: Martha's Vineyard Aikido Club
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Re: Banned from the dojo

OK, it sounds like Sean is being banned from this seminar for petty political reasons, and like no one is going to learn much from it. I've heard of other instances of people being banned, or students of one dojo not being allowed to train at another dojo because of personal/political splits (recent and historical). It seems to be a kind of test of loyalty.

However, I think that when people are being consistently violent, dangerous, out of control, or very disrespectful, they should be asked to leave. They should be spoken to about their problemb behaviour and given a chance to change, but if they don't, and are making training dangerous or demeaning for other students (and driving those students off the mat) I would not want them in a class with me.

Does the banned person learn anything? Probably not, but the other students have a right to a respectful and reasonably safe training environment. I also think that banning someone from the mat should be reserved for fairly extreme cases. Maybe aikido is for everyone, but it can't always be for everyone at once on the same mat, if interpersonal problems threaten to explode into violence.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:28 AM   #29
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
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Posts: 916
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Re: Banned from the dojo

'Last year I did attend a huge celebration in honour of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and 50 years of British Aikido, and it all seemed pretty healthy to me!'

I heard some things that were less than brilliant about that event. But hey, horses for courses.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-09-2006, 03:34 PM   #30
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Re: Banned from the dojo

My feeling is that if you get booted and you feel it was unjust or unwise, those people no longer deserve your time. Find people who appreciate you.
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Old 02-09-2006, 05:35 PM   #31
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Sean you should ask your sensei if you could serve as his otomo, and uke for the seminar... this would give a legitimate reason for your presence and might give close minded people a good lesson... the politics of this situation still elude me... but i feel politics have no place in aikido, although people tend to ignore this...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-09-2006, 06:16 PM   #32
tenshinaikidoka
 
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Dojo: Tri-City Aikido Richland, Wa.
Location: Pasco, Wa
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Re: Banned from the dojo

I too have come across this issue. I am training and have wanted to train in another orginazation/system/style (something created for my profession), however, I was denied due to the Sensei I train under. It really had nothing to do with me (at least I hope not) as I have never trained with any of the people I requested instruction by, it was mearly a reflection upon the Sensei I trained under and the issues between the orginazation and sensei. So, right or wrong, I had to continue on with what I do and had to regretfully not train under a style I thought would benefit me and a style I was hoping to benefit. It is sad that politics play a part in these things and good students/instructors are really the victim IMHO! But hey, it isn't just in martial arts or Aikido, it is in life that these issues play out as well!

Perhaps one day, we can all get along, but until then, we train!!!
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:29 AM   #33
Peter Seth
Dojo: Zanshin. Sunderland University
Location: Sunderland
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England
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Re: Banned from the dojo

A very interesting thread?? but the aiki way is to find 'the balance' and that can be elusive with only one side to measure and make judgement on. I don't actually think that sean was 'banned' I think the conclusion was that it would be 'prudent' if he did not actually train. I am sure there would be no objection to him attending the seminar per se.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:12 AM   #34
ian
 
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Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Quote:
Sean Cassidy wrote:
As for just going along, I'm a great believer in you do what you are told. I joined the association I'm with now because I wish to train in their style of Aikido...
The people who run this course have a habit of banning people, yes they also like kicking people out of they association.
It is very honourable of you Sean. But... the Samurai were a bunch of idiots who often killed themselves when their completely selfish master died.

I HAVE respect for people equally as humans. However SHOWING respect is different. You can think your instructor is the biggest arse in the world, but you can SHOW respect simply for the purpose of learning the techniques/aikido.

Unfortuantely people with big egos believe that a show of respect IS respect. Once you've got everything you want from that club, you can go where you want and owe them nothing!

I'm definately of the school of steal everything you can from your aikido instructors (in terms of training!) - if you admire them as people or they become friends, all the better. Your main obligation in training, is to learn. Your obligations to friends is different.

(i.e. follow their rules if you feel it benefits you, and you don't sacrifice too much of yourself or you don't feel you can appeal to their 'better' nature).

P.S. I don't think banning someone is useful unless you feel they are a threat to the rest of the students (or maybe even are using the techniques for bad ends) - and in that case it should be warning followed by a permanent ban.

Banning someone from attending 'because of the atmosphere' is bizzare. Personally, if someone were to ban me for such reasons, I would feel that they were a very weak personality and were not willing to stand-up for me. Maybe there should be some reflection on this matter for that person.

Last edited by ian : 02-10-2006 at 08:17 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:21 AM   #35
Peter Seth
Dojo: Zanshin. Sunderland University
Location: Sunderland
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 124
England
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Edwin, I fear politics are not the issue at all - I think there are more personal issues involved with more than one person affected by attitudes and behaviour. I have been involved in martial arts for over 45 years - aikido 30, and am as easy going as an old shoe in my dealings with people, I have a great deal of respect for all people who practice their art with respect for the individual, for both 'small aikido' - (physical practice), but most importantly 'big aikido' - (life), with true 'aiki' spirit. I would not dream of assuming that anyone else was would be afraid that my aikido had 'outstripped' theirs. Aikido is a personal thing and should not be 'matched or compared' - just enjoyed and shared, at whatever level.
Aikido should be an enjoyable, lifelong experience - but - sometimes certain attitudes caste a shadow which affect that enjoyment.
I think I have a good reputation as being a friendly, moderate, fair and upbeat individual - all I can say is that it takes a lot to upset me - BUT - along with one or two of my colleagues - its happened!

Aikido is about learning to live life in harmony with 'the world' and all its energies - not trying to control or manipulate things to your needs. Nuf said
Wishing all the best to everyone - sean included
Pete
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:36 AM   #36
Geoff Aisbitt
Dojo: Kobukan Aikido Association
Location: Penshaw
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6
United Kingdom
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Hi Guys,

I read this posting 3 days ago, and have just now managed the time to answer.
I belong to the association that Sean (CLAIMS) he has ben banned from attending the dojo.

Seans, Sensei has been invited to teach a course for our association, Seans Sensei was also approached about our association not allowing Sean to train on the tatami, the word BANNED has never been mentioned. Seans Sensei said, probably what most fair minded people would say, in that it is our association, and our association took the decision for the good and benifit of Aikido in regards Sean will not be allowed to train on the course, he can and I will offer the invite now, attend the course as a spectator and wath what his Sensei teaches if he wishes to do so.

Reference one of Seans claims that we also kick people out of association he is also true, that's what rules and regulations are for, break them and suffer the outcome.

However Sean left our association of his own doing, it is things that he has done since leaving our association that warrents our association not allowing him on the mat.

All the best to you all wherever you may be.

Geoff
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Old 02-12-2006, 10:16 AM   #37
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Quote:
Brandon Needham wrote:
Perhaps one day, we can all get along, but until then, we train!!!

I bet that would make O'Sensei proud.
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Old 02-12-2006, 10:43 AM   #38
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Hi Geoff,

My names Nick Simpson, I've trained with you once or twice (at peters class on a thursday and on kobukan courses in the past). Im one of Seans and Sensei Riley's students.

I just want to bring to your attention that Sean was just providing some background to his question. The issue of him not coming onto your matt is not the question/issue here.

The question was roughly:

'What do you think people learn if you ban them from the dojo'

It was not: 'Do you think my situation is fair?'

Other people have misread the initial post and it's intent. I just wanted to make everyone aware of this...

Best,

Nick.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-12-2006, 10:58 AM   #39
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Re: Banned from the dojo

personalities, egos and hubris... all bull... it has nothing to do with aikido, but with the pettiness of individuals involved and attempts to save face, which in fact only show their shallowness... you should be ashamed of your actions... with hopes that ALL aikidoka learn and grow beyond this kind of thing, and respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 01:32 PM   #40
Peter Seth
Dojo: Zanshin. Sunderland University
Location: Sunderland
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 124
England
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Smile Re: Banned from the dojo

Hi Edwin.
I notice you have some very definite opinions on things - can be a very positive trait, but maybe should be balanced by a 'world vision' of any situation?
Just to see where I am coming from in this thread -

(Quote: Me earlier - 'Aikido is about learning to live life in harmony with 'the world' and all its energies - not trying to control or manipulate things to your needs'. Nuf said
Wishing all the best to everyone - sean included
Pete)

PS: By the way - 'Who' should be ashamed of their actions? I think the respondants have tried to apply the principles of aiki in this case. Ie: create balance and harmony out of a potentially unharmonious situation.
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:35 PM   #41
Geoff Aisbitt
Dojo: Kobukan Aikido Association
Location: Penshaw
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Hi Nick,

I appreciate what you are saying, it just seemed to imply a slur on our association because we took the step to bar an individual from our association, the reasons why are of no importance to anyone else I would imagine. I like most Aikido Dan grades are protecting their own association and Sensei.

Regards.

Geoff.
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:42 PM   #42
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Posts: 597
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Re: Banned from the dojo

aikido is to build bridges, not burn them or set up toll booths...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 01:50 PM   #43
Peter Brown
 
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Dojo: kyu shin kan leicester uk
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Banning students from classes seems quite strange to me. I am not aware of any one being banned in my Dojo over the last 40 years. All I would like to say is that we are only Instructors when we have Aikidoka to instruct, with out them you have no Aikido.
Effort should be made to overcome problems, we all have one thing in common. Aikido the way of harmony
Pete Brown
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:50 PM   #44
Geoff Aisbitt
Dojo: Kobukan Aikido Association
Location: Penshaw
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Hi Edwin,

I respect your views, however you only have your views in regards of training in harmony and in peace with everyone, I totally agree with you on that. However I think you as an American and myself as British are fully aware at this moment in time the world is not a nice place, and there are some not very nice people in the world.

Yes it would be fantastic if everyone could get along, but as the saying goes, "you can't please everyone all of the time"

Yours in Aikido.

Geoff
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Old 02-12-2006, 02:43 PM   #45
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Re: Banned from the dojo

as my grandma used to say two wrongs don't make a right...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 03:07 PM   #46
Geoff Aisbitt
Dojo: Kobukan Aikido Association
Location: Penshaw
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Edwin
I agree again, but to let an offender off all the time, why have justice at all?

Geoff
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Old 02-12-2006, 03:26 PM   #47
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Re: Banned from the dojo

depends on the 'offense' and the 'justice' applied... refer to the thread on James Smith for more on offenses and justice applied to them... if the offense is serious harm or endangerment of others... okay... if others just don't like him or his attitude... then maybe not...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 04:22 PM   #48
Geoff Aisbitt
Dojo: Kobukan Aikido Association
Location: Penshaw
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6
United Kingdom
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Agreed again,
This is not the place to discuss offences by any of our fellow martial artists, as we all train for our own individual means or ends. And as you have just mentioned there are occasions where everyone has a limit, depending on the offence.

Thank you for you comments.

Geoff
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Old 02-12-2006, 04:29 PM   #49
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Re: Banned from the dojo

i believe this is exactly the place to discuss these sorts of things... transparency, honesty, and openness, are important aspects to any MA, but especially aikido...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-13-2006, 05:54 AM   #50
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
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Re: Banned from the dojo

Regardless of the specific situation

I do believe it is the right (and sometimes duty) of the Dojo-Cho and\or Sensei to decide who is learning in his Dojo. If a larger organization exists, the organization hierarchy may sometimes have the right to ask for specific people to not being taught.

I can find lots of reasons for such cases, even from my own memory of situations we have faced in our dojo. From straight and simple situations such as a student who harasses Sensei and actually threatened him with violence (very stupid), through a practitioner of another style who kept coming to our lessons and insisted on trying his own dangerous ideas, and to an advanced student who kept having some commitment problems and finally decided he wishes to follow a different path and only come and visit.

Another Sensei may make a different decision with regard to such an issue, depending on his demeanor and his perception of his own educational role in the life of his adult student. But making such decisions is within the rights of each Sensei, Dojo-Cho and Shihan in accordance with the area \ clubs each is responsible for.

I would also like to remind everyone that we are talking of people here, and they may be persuaded to change their opinion given time and changes in the personality and behavior of such a student.

As for the last question, I do think the notion that one is banned from some place, may give him some idea as for the feeling he has created with some people. You can ignore that, or take this as a slap aimed to educate you.

Reminder again - I do not know any of the people or organizations involved. So I am only writing of the general case.

Amir
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