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Old 02-09-2006, 12:17 PM   #101
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Regarding James Smith

He did not mention a dojo...he mentioned the organization, and the state he is from, which led to his being 'outed'. Specifically:

Quote:
Wtf? I never said I was Shodokan. Don't get me started on Karl Geis. His system to say the least is screwy. I'm with Chuck Clark's group.
So....regardless of whether or not he was a paying member of the association, he certainly *claimed* that he was part of the group.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-09-2006, 12:28 PM   #102
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

true enough Ron, but he did not say anything disrespectful about his dojo or organization, and as a poster here should not be held to represent his dojo or organization as posted earlier... still no smoking gun over the top post that warranted dismissal... good try Ron... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-09-2006, 12:46 PM   #103
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Not a try, I succeeded, though not of convincing you. The issue is not that he said anything disrespectfull of his dojo or org., the issue is that his rude, ignorant, obnoxious behavior reflected poorly on his dojo and organization.

The very fact that he was posting annonymously is a smoking gun.

Whether or not those actions (or others not mentioned) warrented dismissal is not up to us...it's up to the dojo/org. in question. You may question or disagree with them...but it's not up to you or me.

And I strongly disagree that my actions don't in some way reflect on my teacher, my parents, my workplace, etc. If you doubt this, go commit a crime unrelated to your work. Once done, let your job know what you did. See how quickly you end up in the unemployment line... I post every post knowing that if I make too big an @ss of myself, my teacher may well tell me to stop posting. Guess what? If he says stop posting, I stop posting. That is how much I value our relationship. Too bad 'James' didn't learn that lesson. He might then be posting here (under his real name) AND TRAINING. But that would mean being able to acknowledge and accept an authority outside of himself. Step one on the journey to doing just about anything in life AS AN ADULT.

I really must stop posting to this thread...there is no way you and I will agree on this topic. Our starting assumptions are just too far apart.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-09-2006, 01:06 PM   #104
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

see the earlier posts... his behaviour only reflected on himself... to judge others by his actions is a form of prejudice... which we both agree is bad... here's a clip i took from some where without permission, but i think it is germane to the discussion...

"When we are children, many times, we learn to make decisions because we are taught that unless we do what others think is "right" we will be punished. We are usually taught to ignore what our inner voices and our true intent tell us and we are told to listen to outside authority. We have all experienced many of the varied forms that this punishment takes. Fear is the result of this decision making process. If we learn to make our daily decisions based on values that come from our original nature rather than what others have taught us through fear; then we are practicing jiyushin. A life of jiyushin is one of real, true, pure intent actualized in the world by our actions without ever worrying whether the intent or the actions are right or wrong. Any decisions about relative values of "right/wrong or good/bad" will take care of themselves. What a frightening vision... not having an outside authority to guide us and tell us what to do... each of us being responsible... no one else to blame! Many have called this "the Razor's Edge". As with most fear, it is frightening because it is unknown. Therefore we suffer from a lack of self-confidence. When there is a lack of self-confidence, there are always many voices available telling us what to think and do. However, once we realize this jiyushin, we understand and have no problem "knowing". We have faith tempered with doubt. Always open for new information... we trust the "way of things"... the process. Ultimately, ideally we no longer need leaders and teachers. We have "teacherless knowledge". We can cooperate and communicate as equals and colleagues. This jiyushin is evident and defined by our self-image plus our actions and relationships filled with LOVE striving for that which is conducive to the benefit and well being of all creatures. We can understand how we take great comfort in our similarities and gain tremendous power through our differences."... hmmm how about that...

a good teacher would not care if you made an ass of yourself, because thats you not him... i too must stop posting here... we all have a stake in these kind of situations... it is the business of all aikidoka... you can't have it both ways... either it reflects on all of us and is our business ,or it does not reflect on us and is none of our business... i however believe the reality is a mixture of these two... and is not so easily put into a box labeled do not open... James got a raw deal... i would say the same for anyone put in his position... this is my last post on this thread... with respect to all please open your minds and follow your heart, learn to forgive and not to beat down...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-09-2006, 04:35 PM   #105
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Edwin, You wrote,
"this is my last post on this thread... with respect to all please open your minds and follow your heart, learn to forgive and not to beat down..."

Sorry friend, You are still wrong. Those who don't agree with you may indeed have open minds and be following their hearts. I don't think anyone from James' dojo beat him down either. They had the right to act as they did and I am sure James learned a valuable lesson. In fact, what happened to James probably will serve to make him a better and more responsible person in the future than any of us might imagine.

If you are reading this "James", take a hint from all that has been said and next time, act more grown up and hold yourself accountable for what you say by giving your real name. Not only will we like you better, you might actually like yourself better and you can be a contribution to the art instead of a distraction from it.
Best wishes always,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-09-2006, 05:24 PM   #106
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

okay you got me Jorge... my challenge which has yet to be taken is this... if as you state "i am wrong", then put up or shut up and produce the post that James wrote that warrents expulsion from his dojo... James only posted 85 times here and i have linked the search in this thread... so show me this so incredibly disrespectful post... i'm waiting... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-09-2006, 06:06 PM   #107
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Not a try, I succeeded, though not of convincing you. The issue is not that he said anything disrespectfull of his dojo or org., the issue is that his rude, ignorant, obnoxious behavior reflected poorly on his dojo and organization.
If everyone who is rude, ignorant or has an obnoxious behavior should be expelled from the dojo they attend, i think a good number of instructors are going to be unemployed.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
And I strongly disagree that my actions don't in some way reflect on my teacher, my parents, my workplace, etc. If you doubt this, go commit a crime unrelated to your work. Once done, let your job know what you did. See how quickly you end up in the unemployment line...
Let's see, maybe "James" is dumber than a bag of bricks but he's not, afaik, a serial killer, child molester or drug dealer, i still think the dojo responsibles overreacted about the issue.

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Old 02-09-2006, 11:22 PM   #108
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
okay you got me Jorge... my challenge which has yet to be taken is this... if as you state "i am wrong", then put up or shut up and produce the post that James wrote that warrents expulsion from his dojo... James only posted 85 times here and i have linked the search in this thread... so show me this so incredibly disrespectful post... i'm waiting... with respect...
Edwin,
You wrote," put up or shut up" . This is rude and and makes your post unworthy of a response. Telling some one to "Shut up" implies you have a right to do that. I'm not sure who you think you are. I guess it takes a pretty important person to say that to someone you don't know. Maybe you have something in common with James after all.
By the way, didn't you say, "this is my last post on this thread"???
You should have quit while you were ahead.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:15 AM   #109
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Hey folks,
lets remember (those of use who are older) that we ALL said something (or multiple things) stupid when we were young. Perhaps for some of us the web wasn't around to document our transgressions: weren't we lucky.
matt
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:39 AM   #110
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Jorge you simply misunderstood my form of humor, it is a common turn of phrase... my how thin skinned some aikidoka are... the term passive aggressive comes to mind... this is EXACTLY my point in this whole affair... if someone can become insulted by something typed on a public forum by someone you don't even know, then what does that say about their practice of aikido, or self esteem... i'm not picking on anyone, but if you feel picked upon, maybe you should meditate on WHY that is... and i reserve the right to change my mind... remember anything you say can and will be distorted, twisted, remixed and used against you... just ask James... so has anyone found the a posting by James that would get anyone tossed out of their dojo... WITH RESPECT!!! for those that don't read so well...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 06:53 AM   #111
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Jorge you simply misunderstood my form of humor, it is a common turn of phrase
but now you're touching on a point that hasn't really been covered. Personal responsibility for yourself. We've been focusing on the dynamics between posting as an individual on a public forum and its possible repercussions. However, where I think "James" legitimately failed and could have been asked to stop posting by other forum members (not dojo) was twofold. Firstly his lack of respect to other posters by assuming everyone was an internet persona and secondly by being unclear and abrasive in his communication.

No matter what your personal "style" is (for example, pompously arrogant in my case), you do have to ask yourself that if my interactions with others always results in an argument rather than a discussion, what am I achieving? If you want to contribute to a forum that isn't just a slanging match, you do have to ensure you're communicating in a form that won't be misinterpreted. I'm still working on this one.
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:15 AM   #112
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

i have an aunt that can take offense at the word "hello" it has nothing to do with the person saying it, but more to do with HER, and the baggage she is carrying around in her head... you make some good points Ian, but NO ONE has yet given a concrete example of one of James' posts that was so offensive that he should be expelled... and any comments James did make that were possibly covered by your two criteria were "soundly" responded to by other forum members, including Jun and me... why do we assume that someone posting has any knowlegde of 'virtual waza', we don't assume a person walking in to the dojo will act all aikido... these things take time and practice and patience... if what someone says leads your mind, then your aikido is failing... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 07:37 AM   #113
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
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Re: Regarding James Smith

If I had a student that said disrespectful things about me and the dojo I would take a good long look at myself before persecuting them. James has as much right to comment on his dojo as others have to criticise James' actions. I think a much better solution would have been to engage with James, challenge his criticisms where they were considered to be unjust, and try to solve what he must have felt was a problem.

'Respect' should not be enforced. I understand David's feelings, but to say the fault lies completely with James seems very unfair and tends to suggest a degree of victimisation. Some of my students have used Aikiweb, and I would hope they would speak freely and openly - indeed I think aikiweb is a great place to give an equal view, since in the dojo it is difficult to do this.

I think, David, that you need to give a concrete example of the comments made if we to make our own judgements. I would be offended if very personal material were posted on aikiweb by a student. However 'James' was training at your dojo, and therefore was not just trying to attack you - there must have been some discontentment.

I think respect for people just because they have more power is a very bad road to follow. Speak openly, non-agressively and with compassion, and any fault then lays with the ego of the listener.

I would agree, that you only have to teach those you want to. But from the sounds of it, the atmosphere in David's dojo is not conducive to making the students happy or content (or at least that student), and yet the blame was pushed squarely on Jame's shoulders.

If 'James' is still reading, I would love to hear his view as well.

I would say, if instructors get offended by the discussion of particular people on aikiweb, well this 'dojo' of equality is not for them.

Last edited by ian : 02-10-2006 at 07:49 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:48 AM   #114
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

well put Ian... i too find it sad that some students feel they can't speak up for fear of offending... you do not represent your school, although some people will hold that wrong prejudiced view... a true martial artists would never be insulted by words, unless they were directly challenging or threatening violence... this forum and others like it should be free, not hampered by the image/politics of organizations... people should feel free to express "their opinion" without fear of retribution...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 08:26 AM   #115
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
Jorge you simply misunderstood my form of humor, it is a common turn of phrase... my how thin skinned some aikidoka are... the term passive aggressive comes to mind... this is EXACTLY my point in this whole affair... if someone can become insulted by something typed on a public forum by someone you don't even know, then what does that say about their practice of aikido, or self esteem... i'm not picking on anyone, but if you feel picked upon, maybe you should meditate on WHY that is... and i reserve the right to change my mind... remember anything you say can and will be distorted, twisted, remixed and used against you... just ask James... so has anyone found the a posting by James that would get anyone tossed out of their dojo... WITH RESPECT!!! for those that don't read so well...
Edwin,
You are rapidly becoming the new "James". You used these phrases- "thin skinned", "feel picked on","passive aggressive", " become insulted", "those that don't read so well"....

I would comment that I never said any of those things and thankfully, I don't have to own anything you say about me. I found it amusing that you even gave me a psychological tag in "passive aggressive".

Edwin "with respect" means nothing, if in fact, you don't respect. I suggest that in the future, you don't say "Shut up" to people you "respect". They might not believe you.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:01 AM   #116
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

still taking offense where none was intended... that is my only point... if you do not try to understand my post, but instead pull out the words and phrases that you feel slighted by, then i feel you are just trying to find some offense... if that is so feel free to feel that way... but realize that is not my intention... a true martial artist should not be threatened by words unless they are a direct challenge or a threat of physical violence... if someones words cause YOU to feel offended, when that person has clearly stated that is not the intent, meditate on what in you causes that feeling...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 09:24 AM   #117
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
still taking offense where none was intended... that is my only point... if you do not try to understand my post, but instead pull out the words and phrases that you feel slighted by, then i feel you are just trying to find some offense... if that is so feel free to feel that way... but realize that is not my intention... a true martial artist should not be threatened by words unless they are a direct challenge or a threat of physical violence... if someones words cause YOU to feel offended, when that person has clearly stated that is not the intent, meditate on what in you causes that feeling...
Don't worry. You have never offended me. I am hoping you will eventually understand that words mean something. Since you don't take seriously the words you say to others, it's little wonder that you don't pay much attention to your own words like when you say you have made your final post on a thread. I find it interesting the way you are always characterizing that others are offended and insulted. Then you, counsel them to think or meditate on a feeling you claim to know they have. I believe it was you who said on this very thread,
"hey let's be civil and not stoop to name calling... ". If words mean anything at all in your world, maybe you should listen to your own advice.

David Valadez said,"One should be polite regardless of being direct."
Chuck Clark said,"Respectful behavior should be part and parcel with all behavior."
I liked the way those two gentlemen talked to each other. You should reread their posts and take a hint.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:28 AM   #118
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Jorge said, "I would comment that I never said any of those things and thankfully, I don't have to own anything you say about me. I found it amusing that you even gave me a psychological tag in "passive aggressive"."

i did not give you that tag... nor say anything about you other than you misunderstood my JOKE "to put up or shut up"... it is a common phrase between me and my friends, not an insult... but please feel free to think as you like... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 09:29 AM   #119
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

i have not resorted to name calling... and i will not...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 09:56 AM   #120
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

despite the sleight of hand and smoke screens no one has produced a post by James that warranted expulsion... saying it is not our business is fine, but his actions on aikiweb were given as grounds for this action, thus i feel it is my business as i participated in those discussions... please feel free to disagree and attack me, but i will stand by the original point... produce the posts that justifies this... please continue to attack me as it is amusing, but is unlikely to get a response... i have never intended to insult or disrespect anyone on this forum... i am sorry if you feel that i have, and apologize that my comments made you feel this way... my words may be unclear sometimes, but in my heart i respect everyone who posts here...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 10:08 AM   #121
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

i think this article is germane to the discussion at hand...

http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/themirror/2005_05.html

with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 01:35 PM   #122
aikidodragon
Dojo: North West Arkansas Aikido
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Re: Regarding James Smith

In post 106 Edwin wrote "put up, or shut up". In post 108 Jorge said that that statement brought down the level of Edwin's post, and made it not worthy of a response. Jorge, might I ask then why did you respond.
I agree with Edwin, I have seen no proof that "James" was rightfully expelled. I have read his post, I agree he wasn't the most tactful or wise person, but nothing worth major afence over.
If I was kicked out of the dojos i trained and train in for everything i have said, i would have been a long time ago.
Also as a disclaimer,
I am not representing the views of my instructors or orgonizations in this post. This post is only my oppinion, and my oppinion only.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
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Old 02-10-2006, 01:50 PM   #123
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

perhaps we should all include a very explicit disclaimer in our signatures and profiles... well put Sara... although i am NOT singling out anyone, this seems to reflect how too many aikidoka have a problem with questions or opinions other than their own... the article i linked touches on this, as do some of David Valadez' posts... are aikidoka thin skinned? why are some students fearful to express their opinions? why do some people judge a dojo/organization by one or a few individuals? why can't you ask your sensei a question? why would that be considered disrespectful? can't you disagree with someone even your sensei on certain issues? how much influence and control does/should the dojo/organization have in your personal 'outside the dojo' life?... these and many more question should be explored in this free and informal forum without resorting to indignation over the inferred tone or style of a posters writing... with respect... and no intent to disrespect anyone...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 03:25 PM   #124
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
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Re: Regarding James Smith

I made one post on this subject in the first 5-10 posts and was going to "let it go" after that. Somehow this thread seems to have become like a bad car wreck though; Everytime I drive past it I have to slow down and take another look. LOL

Edwin, with a few rare exceptions, I think the majority of us feel that expelling James from his dojo for any posts he made on here is extreme.

However, other than the original post on the thread, it has been stated many times over by more than one person from his dojo that there were other factors inside the dojo that led to eventual dismissal.

They have chosen, for their own reasons, to not divulge those factors to us and that is their right, even if we don't agree with that decision as well.

Ultimately I would like to see "james" come back as well under his real name and hopefully contribute to and learn from this forum and find a school where he can fit in and continue his training to grow as both a person and martial artist. This is by no means a slight against "james" either. At 38, having trained in martial arts for almost 20 years now I am still growing as a person and a martial artist also. I feel when we stop growing it is time to stop training.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-10-2006, 03:59 PM   #125
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

i agree with you Michael, but the original post also made clear that James was not a trouble in the dojo... if he did something heinous... that is endanger other students, get violent, etc... then he should be expelled, but the posts seem to indicate that he was pressured to comply with what i consider unfair demands and punished because he would not comply... they haven't divulged any other 'acts' inside the dojo, because frankly i don't think there were any... refusing to submit to their ultimatum was the 'factor'... this raises issues of control and personal freedom... true enough the dojo can do anything it wants... there is a thread on this site about a male only dojo that got lots of play... so how much authority does a dojo/organization have over your personal life? this is troubling... what if your sensei says you must do exactly as he says or else? what if he doesn't like your girlfriend, or that you have a beer on friday night, or smoke cigarettes, or are a member of the ACLU, etc... what falls within the dojo's "ma ai"? thanks for your comments... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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