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Old 02-08-2006, 03:00 AM   #51
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
I'll leave that to your imagination
mines boggling wildly here. I readily admit being thick and naive, but I can't think of a type of behavior which I'd consider a crash and burn which wouldn't be normally evident within the dojo.
Quote:
The very people who demand a teacher take all comers ..
agree with your generalization and raise you a mote in one eye. Admittedly, it would not be a problem for such a paragon of virtue such as myself...

Just in case I've implied this, I am not saying that anyone should have to teach every student and yes I do think each dojo should be run to the instructors own criteria. I also reserve the right to think that someone else's criteria stink to high heaven in my normal harmonious manner.
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:29 AM   #52
PeterR
 
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
mines boggling wildly here. I readily admit being thick and naive, but I can't think of a type of behavior which I'd consider a crash and burn which wouldn't be normally evident within the dojo. agree with your generalization and raise you a mote in one eye. Admittedly, it would not be a problem for such a paragon of virtue such as myself...
I thought my laweresque was clear. I was talking about outside behaviour whether its obvious in the dojo or not. Then are just some people, and I am very accomodating, that I don't even want to be near.

Everyone makes their choices.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:06 AM   #53
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

without getting into the specific behaviors, then all of our speculation is pointless... does a sensei/organization have the right to intrude into your personal life? what about legal consumption of alcohol or tobacco... do we exile all members of the "Aiki beer drinkers association" just because the dojo/sensei doesn't condone drinking??? can you be kicked out for doing some thing that is a personal choice... not an illegal act??? I think James did nothing on aikiweb that warrented this kind of response... what kind of actions "in the dojo" were the problem??? did they fall into the area of personal actions outside the dojo??? if someone were to ask me to apologize for something that was said on a public forum 'OR ELSE' i would see that as invasive and overly controlling... such ultimatums and dictatorial control of the individual are an invasion of personal freedom and liberty, as well as, privacy... does a sensei or organization have the right to control more than your aiki life... ie who you see or date or marry etc... Will, my question to you and the others that are directly involved is did these actions/behaviors include things that we would all generally agree were "dojo rules" such as safety ie no horseplay on the mat or were they beyond the scope of such 'common rules'... I would also like to invite James back... you do have one (at least) defender here that wants you to continue your training, and to not be intimidated into submitting to 'unreasonable' demands that fall outside the dojo's "ma ai"... i am not saying that such is the case, but hoping that it is not... i have met many students that come in with a skeptical, and confrontational attitude, but with patience these usually cure themselves when aikido is applied... not necessarily physically, but in broader more spiritual terms... again i invite you back...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 10:34 AM   #54
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:

I would also like to invite James back...

You forgot that you don't own this forum. You're NOT even a paying member. Do you think you have the right to invite someone to "my" house?


Our free loaders are allowed in the forum is the courtesy of Jun, volunteers and paying members.

Being in this forum is a privilege not a right. You confused these two. You also confused about being trained in a dojo. It's also a privilege, not a right.
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:43 AM   #55
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

don't get your panties in a hitch there Roosvelt... i never implied any of the things you tried to beat me up with... privilege does NOT give carte blanche to dictate, and require certain concessions of personal freedom and privacy... i am sure the KKK considers it a privilege, not a right to be a member of their organization... i just don't want to do the kind of things they require to be privileged... "free loaders" ??? hey lets be civil and not stoop to name calling...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 11:51 AM   #56
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:

i am sure the KKK considers it a privilege, not a right to be a member of their organization.

Comparing James' dojo with KKK was a bit harsh and out of context, wasn't it?


Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:

"free loaders" ??? hey lets be civil and not stoop to name calling...
I said "US free loader", which included myself. As a freeloader myself, I'm gracious to my hosts and other members. I don't feel that I have any right to "invite" another rude guest. Of course, to spread Aikiweb to attract wider audience is a total different thing.
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:54 AM   #57
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

HELLO... where exactly did i compare the two??? read more carefully before you start typing...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 11:55 AM   #58
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
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Re: Regarding James Smith

I thought "James'" posts were silly and often ignorant. I thought that the action his dojo and instructors took was their business - their house to keep in order so to speak. My concern is that his dojo chose to explain their disciplinary action here. What takes place in their dojo is a private matter and should remain confidential. I wouldn't have had a big problem with them simply disavowing his comments, somthing like "James Smith does not speak for or represent our organization." Whatever disciplinary action or process they followed is their mutual business, telling us about it wasn't beneficial to anyone in my opinion.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:57 AM   #59
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
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Re: Regarding James Smith

i do not think James was exactly rude, but more uninformed and lacking in tact... rudeness seems to me to imply the intent to be disrespectful, rather than an ignorance of social conventions...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 11:58 AM   #60
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
You forgot that you don't own this forum. You're NOT even a paying member. Do you think you have the right to invite someone to "my" house?
Edwin, please do try not to be so forgetful,

I'm with you on this one, it seems to me that many of "James's" posts were a those of a young guy, quite happy to provoke by being brash ( and in some cases rude ), and in one post in particular he was quite explicit in saying that the web was not the place for manners and niceties ( my paraphrase ). We collectively as a contributors seemed to get our 'nickers in a twist' and rose to his childish baiting, more fool us.

As for his dojo and their actions, they are perfectly entitled to do whatever they see fit with any of their members regarding discipline. Non of us are in any position to comment other than to air an opinion for public view.

So, IMHO whenever possible I believe it is best to include rather than exclude, even if that means having to deal with unruly behaviour. If families kicked out every teenager every time they caused trouble, the streets would be awash with them.

I won't go so far as to invite 'James' back as I see ( as a non paying member ) it is not my place to do so but at least if he were here we could find out if he has gained anything from all the fuss he has generated.

Cheers
Mark

p.s how do I join up to the Aiki beer drinkers association?

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:07 PM   #61
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
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Re: Regarding James Smith

ABDA is always accepting new students and never excludes any one in spite of our entitlement to do so... our only disciplinary action is requiring the alledged offender to buy the next round... indeed a heavy punishment in some cases but universally supported by all members... ;-))

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 12:22 PM   #62
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
ABDA is always accepting new students and never excludes any one in spite of our entitlement to do so... our only disciplinary action is requiring the alledged offender to buy the next round... indeed a heavy punishment in some cases but universally supported by all members... ;-))
I'm in! but I imagine if i have to buy the first round it could end up being quite expensive!

Cheers,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-08-2006, 01:34 PM   #63
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

David Bedard wrote:
On the mat "James" was very quiet only asking questions from time to time. Once we were aware of the situation we were able to identify who James Smith really was. We have talked with "James" and explained to him that his behavior was not appropriate and disrespectful to many people. "James" was a member of our dojo but not a member of Jiyushinkai. We asked "James" to write an apology and tell everyone who he really is but he has chosen not to. Due to his refusal to take responsibility for what he has done we have asked "James" to leave our dojo at this time. I would like to make it clear that "James" does not represent our dojo or Jiyushinkai in anyway.

so forgive me if i am 'stoopid', but apparently James was browbeaten to provide a statement apologizing for some alledged "disrespectful of many people", and when he did not comply he was banned from his dojo... here is a list of all of James' 85 posts to aikiweb, and although he was admonished once by Jun, he was not banned (Jun please correct me if i am incorrect)... i find very little that would even remotely justify this extreme reaction... i would respectfully request that the principles involved in this situation re examine their actions... to err is human to forgive divine... for my part this reflects more poorly upon the others involved than it does on James, but i am on the outside, and my opinion is just that mine, and is in no way disrespectful of anyone else... let he who is without sin cast the first stone...
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/search...8&pp=25&page=1

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 01:50 PM   #64
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Regarding James Smith

In my not so important opinion, 'James' banned himself from the dojo. He was made aware of a standard of conduct, and chose not to meet it. The group did not find that choice acceptable. End of story. That they made this information available to us is up to them.

I read and enjoyed David's posts on this topic. But I don't expect either myself or most others to truly live up to the sentiments expressed. But the best of us might.

The one thing of note to me: There is no 'James Smith'. There is a wannabe who ain't got the stones to post under his own name. No one owes anything to an annonymous twit on the internet.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:04 PM   #65
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
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Re: Regarding James Smith

as i understand it he broke no standard of conduct... and when confronted and issued an unfair ultimatum, was summarily dismissed for little reason other than failing to comply with this unfair ultimatum... we must all live up to these ideal sentiments or it is just hogwash and we are all posers... i admit i fail miserably sometimes, but we must sincerely try...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 02:21 PM   #66
Bedard
Location: TX
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Being one of the instructors that made this decision and made the original post I would like to explain our position a little more and hopefully this will clarify our reasoning for the actions we took. We did not take this action lightly nor was this our first choice. We try other options to resolve this issue but "James" was not receptive.

We did try to guide "James" to the best of our abilities but at some point the student has to take some responsibility for his own training and for his actions or at least meet us half way. As Will stated in his post, "James" was asked to leave for more than just what he did on the web. "James" is always welcome back once he demonstrates that he is ready and willing to learn. As Peter pointed out, we are not professional therapist; we teach aikido because we love it and have been practicing it for many years. We do not get paid to teach, all dues go into supporting the dojo and keeping a mat under our feet

I do not want to stop "James" or anyone else from expressing their opinions and neither do any of the other instructors in our dojo. We certainly do not want to control someone's personal life. I do not have any problem with people disagreeing with me; actually I like it because it keeps me honest. "James" may be back on this forum soon using his real identity and I welcome his input.

I posted my original message because I thought it was the right thing to do at the time, maybe it was not but it has made for an interesting thread. I probably should have made it clear that it was not just what he posted to this forum that lead to our actions and for that I apologize. We welcome anyone who wants to practice with us.
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:06 PM   #67
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

but this is no clearer now... he supposedly disrespected many people on this forum and then disregarded what i would call in military parlance an unlawful order to apologize, when one was not really necessary... did he 'do' something else??? if so was it of a magnitude to warrent this response on your part? was he disruptive in class, did his actions endanger the safety of other students??? or was his simple refusal to submit to ultimatums the cause? I am still unconvinced... i have a gut feeling that James has become a sort of whipping boy when he really did nothing that most other posters have not done... that is be somewhat flippant in his remarks and not consider all the implications of his words... as we cannot see the contents of another person's mind and outward appearances can be deceiving... how then does one 'demonstrate' a willingness to learn? especially in the face of such "hyper" criticism??? if he did blatantly break the rules as stated by your dojo/organization in writing, then he deserves some form of punishment, but no one has yet shown that this is so... i continue to maintain innocence until proven guilty... with respect to all...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 03:21 PM   #68
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
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Re: Regarding James Smith

And with respect to Mr. Neal, his dojo already sat in judgement of his conduct and delivered what they believed to be appropriate discipline. I don't see that they have any obligation to you or me, or anyone outside their organization, an explanation or defend their actions to us. Our courts recognize the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but they also pay great deference to those who are empowered to make decisions in organizations. I do the same. It is troublesome at best to be second-guessed by those who have only part of the facts in a controversy.

That aside, I still maintain that they should have remained silent about the situation and James could choose to speak up or keep his own counsel regarding the discipline.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:31 PM   #69
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

i agree Michael, but just because they 'sat in judgment' does not make their decision 'right', and an appeal is granted to even the most notorious serial killer... again no real reason for his exile has been given... just vague hints of other actions... when the original post said "On the mat "James" was very quiet only asking questions from time to time. Once we were aware of the situation we were able to identify who James Smith really was." this implies no wrong 'action' by James until confronted about the web situation... correct me if i am wrong, but what are the real 'actions' that merited this discipline... i have yet to see them explained... and so i must still speak for my fellow who has apparently been sacrificed to save face, with no clear reason given... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 03:33 PM   #70
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
but this is no clearer now... he supposedly disrespected many people on this forum and then disregarded what i would call in military parlance an unlawful order to apologize, when one was not really necessary...
Dear Edwin:

First, I note that you and I are both American citizens, and much of your writing in this case refers quite directly to individual rights, and your apparent sense that they might have been violated in this instance.

I would certainly agree with you that the protection of basic human rights is no small matter. In the specific case of the US Constitution and the First Amendment I would note that in addition to protecting individual rights of free speech, they also protect collective rights of free association.

Personally, I don't know enough about the particulars of the case to comment on the actions taken by the instructor or the association.

But I do know enough about the balance between individual and collective rights to suggest that unless practice with the group in question constitutes a "public accomodation," the group is well within its own rights to insist that those who wish to be associated with it observe such norms as may be set by the group, by whatever method it happens to use to set those norms.

Whatever one's feeling about the particulars, treating the question solely in terms of individual rights is incorrect in principle, and dangerous in application.

Best regards,

FL
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:41 PM   #71
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

agreed Fred, but it still smells fishy to me... see my previous post... i would not advocate abridging this groups rights, however i don't like the apparent 'making an example of' the student in question... i merely think a careful review seems to suggest this seems to me to possibly be the case... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 03:41 PM   #72
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Regarding James Smith

What Fred said (pardon the rhyme).

Quote:
I agree Michael, but just because they 'sat in judgment' does not make their decision 'right',
And their decision, even though it was posted here in an attempt to be upfront and to inform, is none of our darn business. Or yours either. Unless you want to join their group. And once again, you cannot speak up for an annonymous twit on the internet. They are a non-entity until they sign their REAL name.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:45 PM   #73
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
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Re: Regarding James Smith

I agree with Edwin in that... James IMO, didn't actually break any rules. Had he broken any, I think Jun would have asked him to leave or at least given him a warning, which to my knowledge didn't happen from what i've read on this thread.

However, I do believe that James was disrespectful to a number of people, which i think does call for an apology of some sort.

I don't think it was really bad enough for him to be kicked out of his dojo though. He just seemed like an adolescent who needed to be corrected.. not severely punished.
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:46 PM   #74
Edwin Neal
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Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Ron, their posts were anything but informative, and since it was posted and is the topic under discussion and i could be one of the many people disrespected on aikiweb... i would say it is at least some of my darn business... i can and will continue to speak up whenever i see or seem to see injustice... i would do no less for you or any other human being... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-08-2006, 04:07 PM   #75
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Respect right back at ya...but we still disagree. Nothing wrong with that. I think their posts were very informative.

And I believe one of Jun's rules is that you post under your REAL name. If that is so, James broke that rule for starters.

I'll bow out now...nothing much more to say.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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