Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-15-2010, 01:30 PM   #126
Johann Baptista
Dojo: Aikido Institute Davis
Location: Davis, CA
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 29
Brazil
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
You state Aikido was "made to work outside of the "no below the belt" and "no small joint locks" rules." I would contend that since Aikido wasn't developed with fighting in mind. It would also not be that great at any kind of all out combat. (Sure you might learn some basics of fighting/self defense from Aikido eventually. But this is completely auxillary. It's not the primary goal of the art.)
Why do you know what the primary goal of Aikido is? Personally, I think Aikido is a perfectly capable fighting art. O'Sensei was an excellent fighter. Aikido has been used successfully to defend against many different styles of fighting including street fighting by many people on this forum. Using Aikido as a fighting art retains and enhances the Aikido philosophy. Why would O'Sensei create a whole philosophy around fighting, and create an art that has nothing to do with fighting? Aikido is Budo; it works. But the philosophy must be respected; Aikido is nothing without its philosophy. People must not injure others using Aikido unless absolutely necessary. Emphasis on protecting uke is what makes Aikido so unique... and its what the techniques were developed for.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Further there is a huge difference between sparring/randori and fighting/shiai/going all out. When comparing arts, simply holding one's own in a friendly spar doesn't mean you're combatively superior than them.
Agreed, but no one is claiming combat superiority. At least, not that I have interpreted. All I'm trying to say is that we haven't been practicing a useless art.

Peace, - Johann
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 03:51 PM   #127
bulevardi
Dojo: Tobu Chiku Aikikai
Location: Brussels
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 99
Belgium
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

*points the finger*

Can someone give that Anonymous User a name, please.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 04:15 PM   #128
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post

One last point on Boxing a Boxer - if you train in a particular method and you come up against someone who trains in a different method then unless you also train as much in that method you will come up lacking. You will not find strikers who can grapple to the level of a Judoka / Jujutsuka unless the striker puts in the time and effort to train in that method and approach to combat. The reverse is also true.

Best

LC
My point when I said "box a boxer" was this:

I think when people say "Aikido has disappointed me in the past" it is because they were looking for something from Aikido that Aikido does not offer.
Thus, if you entered Aikido with the goal to one day be able to defeat a boxer you will be disappointed if you can't. I wouldn't care if a boxer defeated my Aikido, Aikido still wouldn't let me down, because what I want out of Aikido has nothing to do with defeating other people or arts.
People who feel let down by Aikido need to evaluate why they are in Aikido, and what it is they were wanting from the art.

If after evaluating what they wanted out of Aikido, and in their hearts of hearts all they ever wanted to do was defeat a boxer, then they should of took up boxing.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 07:04 PM   #129
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
LOL that might work too!

But I was referring to beating him in a ring, for pride, not life.
In which case I think boxing would do you better than Aikido, if winning a boxing match was your aim.
Gotcha...I see what you mean! absolutely. It is like my trainees that used to ask me the secret to improve their pushups...which of course is "do more pushups!".

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 07:13 PM   #130
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
My point when I said "box a boxer" was this:

I think when people say "Aikido has disappointed me in the past" it is because they were looking for something from Aikido that Aikido does not offer.
Thus, if you entered Aikido with the goal to one day be able to defeat a boxer you will be disappointed if you can't. I wouldn't care if a boxer defeated my Aikido, Aikido still wouldn't let me down, because what I want out of Aikido has nothing to do with defeating other people or arts.
People who feel let down by Aikido need to evaluate why they are in Aikido, and what it is they were wanting from the art.

If after evaluating what they wanted out of Aikido, and in their hearts of hearts all they ever wanted to do was defeat a boxer, then they should of took up boxing.
That is a good point. The first day I walked into Saotome Sensei's dojo years ago the "rules and expectations" of the dojo and aikido were posted and they were very clear, still are and they have not changed.

That did not stop me though from trying to turn Aikido into something that I wanted it to be! lol!

I think we all go through this in life as we attempt to get close to something we love to do. Be it aikido or even a relationship!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 08:01 PM   #131
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
That is a good point. The first day I walked into Saotome Sensei's dojo years ago the "rules and expectations" of the dojo and aikido were posted and they were very clear, still are and they have not changed.

That did not stop me though from trying to turn Aikido into something that I wanted it to be! lol!

I think we all go through this in life as we attempt to get close to something we love to do. Be it aikido or even a relationship!
Frankly, after my first Aikido class I wanted to quit. I was slow, 50 pound over weight, had bad ballance. I wanted to quit bad! (I couldn't even walk in the morning.)

I only showed up to the class to see my boy crush.(now fiance'). I had a bad work schedule, and he had a crazy school schedule. It was the only time I could be in the same room with him some weeks.
But I kept going to see him, and kept falling and getting back up. Until one day I went even if he wasn't there. Aikido made me healthier, challenged me, improved me. It was like a relationship, when I gave it something, it gave back.

I loved him-- in turn I loved Aikido.
My reasons are still the same for going everyday. I love Aikido. Therefore so long as Aikido is Aikido I will never fail me.(Or my expectations for it.) I'll still love Aikido because it is Aikido..... the same things goes for my fiance' I guess.

Last edited by RED : 03-15-2010 at 08:08 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 07:13 AM   #132
bulevardi
Dojo: Tobu Chiku Aikikai
Location: Brussels
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 99
Belgium
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Frankly, after my first Aikido class I wanted to quit. I was slow, 50 pound over weight, had bad ballance. I wanted to quit bad!

I only showed up to the class to see my boy crush.(now fiance'). I had a bad work schedule, and he had a crazy school schedule. It was the only time I could be in the same room with him some weeks.
But I kept going to see him, and kept falling and getting back up.
So in the beginning, you didn't like it... If that boy wasn't there in that club, you wouldn't go back again and again. Aikido would have failed you?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
People who feel let down by Aikido need to evaluate why they are in Aikido, and what it is they were wanting from the art.

If after evaluating what they wanted out of Aikido, and in their hearts of hearts all they ever wanted to do was defeat a boxer, then they should of took up boxing.
So apart from your boyfriend, what did you want out of Aikido at that moment?
(1)Didn't you want to get yourself defended when attacked on the street? Or (2) did you just do it to get fit?

For 1: you could start boxing. For 2: you could go playing basketball either.

What do people want to get out of Aikido anyway?

My personal cultural interest goes to Japanese lifestyle, history, language. Budo in general, so also other martial arts interest me.
I wanted to combine my theoretical interest with some physical activity, like practicing Aikido. But why Aikido and for example not Karate or Judo or something else?
I already practiced Aikido when I was a child for 6 years. Because my mother did 15 years Aikido, she signed me in for the Aikido class aswel, didn't know better as a child. But when I was 12 I took a break... for 15 years. And then I decided to restart again at 26.
But actually... If it would be just to get a good condition or te get fit, I should practice basketball in the same sports center where my dojo is located. It's so much more running, jumping, sweating,...

Last edited by bulevardi : 03-16-2010 at 07:17 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 01:58 PM   #133
wuyizidi
 
wuyizidi's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Thankfully I have never had to defend my life, with weapons or empty-handed. But it's actually an interesting question with many parts:

1. It's not the art, but the practitioner

Ever seen those youtube videos where one style is pitted against another, where one guy was really bad, and people immediately come to the conclusion: such and such art is no good/the other is better? We immediately say, hey, that's not fair, this guy's skill is not good enough. In China/Japan, we don't see as many of this type of comments. When we lose, we usually don't blame our teacher or their teachings, we usually say "I'm not good enough". If we're fighting against someone of similar level of physical conditioning, and we lost, we say, obviously our level of skill is not good enough, we need to train more.

Today, since empty hand martial art skills are not really needed by society, training is a lot more lax. In the old days when you say you practice martial art, at the very least, people expect you to be better conditioned than the average person (strength, endurance, power, speed, balance, reflex, agility, coordination). Today students of many martial arts are less conditioned than the healthy average person of their age. So it's really bad when they can't even beat untrained person, unfairly making other people think their art is no good.

2. What can any martial art do for us?

People are often attracted to martial art when they see some high level expert, often older, smaller, beating many younger, stronger opponents. Our common sense tells us this is highly unusual. Usually the stronger, the faster, the more numerous wins. So this is almost like magic. There's also a very old Chinese expression "there are no number ones in humanities (literature, art, music, etc), there are no number twos in martial art." Combine these ideas together, there's a common tendency for people to think: if I study martial art I need to learn from the best (everyone else are just, well, losers), and in doing so I can magically transform to become invincible.

Martial art is a set of training methods. The most any training method can do is to maximize your natural born potential. Training makes a huge difference, just look at the effort vs result of novice vs expert swimmers. So if my potential is 100, and someone much bigger, stronger than me is 150. If as a result of training I get to 90, but him, being untrained, is only using 75. I have a good chance of beating him. But he is as well trained as I am, so now he's 135, I would have no chance of beating him. For a person to be invincible, all else being equal, he must be born with the best potential. We're talking about people like Alexander Karalin, Mike Tyson, etc. In the cases of those two, their natural potential is so high, even if wrestling and boxing are not as sophisticated, it doesn't matter what type of martial art I study, I have no chance of beating them. Here the best fighter I can be is still not as good a fighter as the less than optimal fighters they are now.

So here, even thought it's used in this favorable context (both person empty handed), it's not fair to say Aikido has failed me, because no empty hand style can make me exceed their partially realized potential. It's like asking if any martial art can make a 10 year old beat a 21 year old.

3. Reality of the world we live in

Now we move to a less favorable context -- the world we live in today.

One day I was on my way to training with several friends. Just before we get to the studio, a truck, coming out of its parking lot, stop next to us. The driver saw the long weapons we're carrying, and asked in a friendly manner "are you guys larping?"

This is like the time I ran across the term "historical swordsmanship". It just hammers home the message that traditional martial art, in terms of fundamental reason for its existence (kill, injure, incapacitate another human being) is obsolete in today's world. We have much more effective and efficient tools now, one that allows someone with much less physical ability beat us with ease.
If one person has a longer range weapon (say handgun), and another person short range (arms and legs): if the person with longer range weapon use it the way it's meant to be used, the person with shorter range weapon, in theory, has no chance of winning. No Aikido master, or any traditional empty hand skill master, can defeat a pistol expert standing 20 feet away. I live in a world of high tech weaponry, by comparison empty hand skills are low level (in operating principle) and hopelessly out of date.

Again, here it's meaningless to say Aikido failed me, because it's bigger than that -- no traditional skill can allow me (or Mike Tyson) to beat modern firearm.

4. Weapons vs empty hand

If you were sent to fight in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Somalia, you won't live very long if your gun doesn't work right? If you're a police sent to catch armed robbers, murderers, drug dealers, you wouldn't go into their house empty-handed right? Or, turning the tables around, if you're a criminal, by definition your activities are highly dangerous, so you won't go into any of those situation unarmed if you can help it right?

Let's go back to an earlier era, to say American Civil War, Napoleonic War, Battle of Agincourt, Mongolian invasion, or any of the Warring States periods... In any era, unless the culture is extremely primitive, serious fighting (life and death) always meant weapons fighting. No matter who you are, you are far deadlier with weapons than without. Just look at what an average person can do with a small simple tool here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-QgXsrWxGM). The person in this video can never smash through a car window like this empty-handed. Weapons are called equalizers right? With greater range, speed, and hardness, a less physically talent opponent can kill an unarmed enemy rather easily.

So even we're talking about the "good olde days". Aikido, in its empty hand form, is going to fail you in many (actually most) circumstances where deadly force is involved.

Today we laugh at the amount of time people devote to ground wrestling skills. We say: that's not realistic! It's a highly specialized skill useful only in a narrow set of circumstances (for example that horrifying scene in Saving Private Ryan). But if we just take one step back, we can see the same can be said of all empty hand skills in general.

The range of circumstances where empty hand skills can play an effective role in determining life or death is getting smaller and smaller by day. We live in a high tech world, where weapons are powered not by strength of human body, but by advanced mechanical, electromagnetic, chemical, even nuclear sources. Compared to that our human powered weapon -- the body trained by empty hand skills, is incredibly insignificant.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 03:54 PM   #134
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
So in the beginning, you didn't like it... If that boy wasn't there in that club, you wouldn't go back again and again. Aikido would have failed you?

So apart from your boyfriend, what did you want out of Aikido at that moment?
(1)Didn't you want to get yourself defended when attacked on the street? Or (2) did you just do it to get fit?
I at first wanted nothing from Aikido...indifferent. I didn't even know what Aikido was when I went to those first classes back then. If I had no expectations from Aikido, Aikido couldn't fail me. lol I at the time never thought about taking self-defense courses, they never appealed to me, I wasn't much of the warrior type. I didn't do it to get in shape, though I admit it is a nice side-effect. I wasn't athletic or graceful then.

I found a certain magic to Aikido because of this. I jumped into class, accepted what I was learning without argument or preconception(because I had no martial training or understanding, thus no opinion of Aikido at that point.) I asked nothing of Aikido and expected nothing,and the magic of it was it gave me things I didn't know I wanted in return. Quickly I found myself thinking about Aikido when I wasn't at the dojo. I became obsessively in love with Aikido. All I wanted was Aikido, and Aikido gave me Aikido--thus I'm never disappointed or failed, because Aikido provides me access to what I want from Aikido--which is Aikido.
I do Aikido for Aikido's sake.

Peace

Last edited by RED : 03-16-2010 at 04:09 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 06:30 PM   #135
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

David Ho wrote:

Quote:
The range of circumstances where empty hand skills can play an effective role in determining life or death is getting smaller and smaller by day. We live in a high tech world, where weapons are powered not by strength of human body, but by advanced mechanical, electromagnetic, chemical, even nuclear sources. Compared to that our human powered weapon -- the body trained by empty hand skills, is incredibly insignificant.
Military thought of the 60's and 70's perpetuated this logic to the point that our great military thinkers had basically relegated the role of the infantryman as obsolete on the battlefield.

While technology does give us some great advantages, we have discovered in the last 10 years just how important the guy on the ground is and that all those basic, basic skills of interacting with human beings upfront and personal are the most important and can affect the greatest change.

As such, it requires us to get close and open up to a point, which is risky.

So, we spend a more time today, than in anytime past with skills such as body language, linquistics, customs, cultures, and all the other stuff that goes with close quarters combat to include empty handed martial arts.

I think it is quite the contrary...this stuff is as important as it ever was today!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 10:07 PM   #136
wuyizidi
 
wuyizidi's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
David Ho wrote:

Military thought of the 60's and 70's perpetuated this logic to the point that our great military thinkers had basically relegated the role of the infantryman as obsolete on the battlefield.

While technology does give us some great advantages, we have discovered in the last 10 years just how important the guy on the ground is and that all those basic, basic skills of interacting with human beings upfront and personal are the most important and can affect the greatest change.

As such, it requires us to get close and open up to a point, which is risky.

So, we spend a more time today, than in anytime past with skills such as body language, linquistics, customs, cultures, and all the other stuff that goes with close quarters combat to include empty handed martial arts.

I think it is quite the contrary...this stuff is as important as it ever was today!
No one, at this point in history at least, can argue that overall human beings are still the best at receiving, communicating, and processing information.

That is not what I am arguing about. What I am saying here is: at a fundamental level, martial art is about deliver force(s) to an opponent to neutralize him. Previously, that is mostly done with simple tools (edged weapons, staff, our limbs, etc) power and moved by the human body. Today, modern technology has mostly suppleneted these simple tools and human body as the power source and delivery mechanism of that force. Human beings are still the ones deciding what to do, but increasingly, it's technology that carries out that destructive task. What is being devalued these days is not human judgement, but its physical power output. In terms of practical usage, traditional martial art is devalued the same way many other types of manual craftsmanship are devalued because high tech machines can do it much better.

Last edited by wuyizidi : 03-16-2010 at 10:12 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 07:29 AM   #137
Ryan Seznee
Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

This is an interesting question, and a lot of people have made a lot of attempts to answer it. But I feel it can only be truely answered by someone who has literally mastered all of Aikido. Not to say that Aikido doesn't have weak points techniqually (everything does), but Aikido is so multifacited that every time I go to a class I feel I learn something (a lot of times it is just how a technique doesn't work). You may loose a fight trying to use Aikido, but the world is bigger than your dojo... there is always someone stronger, and sometimes they also happen to practice Aikido (but not always, the world is an interesting place like that).

I also feel that Aikido, like a lot of modern martial arts, is done in a technical void where technique is the only thing given virtue in a fight, but this is not realistic. Strategy, physical conditioning, surroundings, laws, politics, and psychological factors all play a part in the conflict as well. Frankly, if I can beat you in one of the above listed areas, I can get away with being technically not proficient. This is the reason competitive sports such as greco-roman wrestling, judo, boxing, MMA, and BJJ are divided into weight class. A guy that has 100 pounds on you (assuming you have the same physical conditioning) can probably beat you in a ring (or octagon) no mater what kind of training you have. It doesn't mean you are a bad player, but it is not a "fair" fight, that is why these events have rules. A fight is not a good judgment on who well or poorly a martial art works, in my opinion, because there are so many other ways to loose a fight other than poor technique. My favorite example is a friend of mine who fancied himself a boxer lost his first street fight because he got his foot caught in a gopher hole and strained his ankle before the first punch was thrown. It wasn't that boxing failed him so much as he was a big enough dork to not notice a hole.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 11:21 AM   #138
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
David Ho wrote: View Post
No one, at this point in history at least, can argue that overall human beings are still the best at receiving, communicating, and processing information.

That is not what I am arguing about. What I am saying here is: at a fundamental level, martial art is about deliver force(s) to an opponent to neutralize him. Previously, that is mostly done with simple tools (edged weapons, staff, our limbs, etc) power and moved by the human body. Today, modern technology has mostly suppleneted these simple tools and human body as the power source and delivery mechanism of that force. Human beings are still the ones deciding what to do, but increasingly, it's technology that carries out that destructive task. What is being devalued these days is not human judgement, but its physical power output. In terms of practical usage, traditional martial art is devalued the same way many other types of manual craftsmanship are devalued because high tech machines can do it much better.
That's one perspective...I would suggest that the first and original purpose for the Martial Arts as Bodhidharma envisioned them was a bit different. Martial Movement and Exercise is a physical "way" to reach a spiritual" state of being." Perhaps in the beginning folks understood they had (and still do under certain circumstances) a practical application on the "battlefield" but it's "spiritual" application has been around for a very long time too...Tai Chi anyone?...

I think the founders of the Gendai Arts in Japan Funakoshi, Kano, and Ushiba realized that the Japanese versions anyway had to come full circle and focus on something more than just a fighting system...

So lets give our pal Bodhi a little credit...I would like to think he realized although the technical aspects of Martial Movement may not be relevant today from a practical standpoint The goal of Martial Movement is "spiritual development" and that my dear friends is timeless...

Thanks to Shoji Nishio and others I now understand that the only thing I ever plan on cutting with my sword is...

My own bulls*t LOL

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 01:21 PM   #139
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
David Ho wrote: View Post
No one, at this point in history at least, can argue that overall human beings are still the best at receiving, communicating, and processing information.

That is not what I am arguing about. What I am saying here is: at a fundamental level, martial art is about deliver force(s) to an opponent to neutralize him. Previously, that is mostly done with simple tools (edged weapons, staff, our limbs, etc) power and moved by the human body. Today, modern technology has mostly suppleneted these simple tools and human body as the power source and delivery mechanism of that force. Human beings are still the ones deciding what to do, but increasingly, it's technology that carries out that destructive task. What is being devalued these days is not human judgement, but its physical power output. In terms of practical usage, traditional martial art is devalued the same way many other types of manual craftsmanship are devalued because high tech machines can do it much better.
Technology has it's place for sure and it is a big enabler for sure. However, I would not say that it devalues the human touch and the power that relationships and human spirit bring to a situation.

A good read is "One Tribe at a Time", by MAJ Jim Gant.

It is available at the top of this blog and worth a read.

http://blog.stevenpressfield.com/

I think it does a good job in demonstrating why Firepower and technology, while enablers simply are not the ultimate answer to solving problems. Really since the industrial age, we have taken the view that machines simply can do things better and have used a "industrial/technology centric" strategy to solve our problems.

Lessons learned I think in most conflicts, I think, show that human beings matter and matter big. The reason I am a believer in budo is for this very reason. It is also why I believe you see a resurrgence in empty handed martial arts practices in the military today, to also include the Air Force.

We have to come out from behind the weapons and body armor, take risk if we are ever going to solve problems. When you take those risk, it means that empty handed means matter more than ever!

This is true not only for military, but for all areas in life. Tom Peters back in the 80's in the book "In Search for Excellence" talked about management by walking around (MBWA).

So, while I understand your point of view on technology, I also believe that it has cost us a great deal in terms of solving problems, and I do not agree that it has relegated "human power" to a secondary status. Frankly I believe that this assumption is costing us in a big way as it has produced a risk averse society that is not willing to suffer potential exposure to harm in order to solve problems.

Read the paper above, it outlines this problem very well!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 01:34 PM   #140
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Technology has it's place for sure and it is a big enabler for sure. However, I would not say that it devalues the human touch and the power that relationships and human spirit bring to a situation.

A good read is "One Tribe at a Time", by MAJ Jim Gant.

It is available at the top of this blog and worth a read.

http://blog.stevenpressfield.com/

I think it does a good job in demonstrating why Firepower and technology, while enablers simply are not the ultimate answer to solving problems. Really since the industrial age, we have taken the view that machines simply can do things better and have used a "industrial/technology centric" strategy to solve our problems.

Lessons learned I think in most conflicts, I think, show that human beings matter and matter big. The reason I am a believer in budo is for this very reason. It is also why I believe you see a resurrgence in empty handed martial arts practices in the military today, to also include the Air Force.

We have to come out from behind the weapons and body armor, take risk if we are ever going to solve problems. When you take those risk, it means that empty handed means matter more than ever!

This is true not only for military, but for all areas in life. Tom Peters back in the 80's in the book "In Search for Excellence" talked about management by walking around (MBWA).

So, while I understand your point of view on technology, I also believe that it has cost us a great deal in terms of solving problems, and I do not agree that it has relegated "human power" to a secondary status. Frankly I believe that this assumption is costing us in a big way as it has produced a risk averse society that is not willing to suffer potential exposure to harm in order to solve problems.

Read the paper above, it outlines this problem very well!
Outstanding Post thanks Kevin.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 02:16 PM   #141
aikishihan
Dojo: aikido academy/alhambra,california
Location: Los Angeles, California
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 371
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Never, and Forever.

Last edited by aikishihan : 03-17-2010 at 02:22 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 01:22 PM   #142
bulevardi
Dojo: Tobu Chiku Aikikai
Location: Brussels
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 99
Belgium
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Interesting article:
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/544

Lau wrote his aikido instructor in Hawaii, asking for answers. The reply came swiftly by phone: "In street combat situations," his instructor said, "you must use kicking and punching. Aikido alone will not work."

Don Draeger said, "Uyeshiba's aikido is a highly weakened form of hand-to-hand combat. Aikido is essentially noncombative in nature. Further, the omission of atemi (strikes) from its techniques removes aikido from the category of practical hand-to-hand combat styles."

Uyeshiba thought aikido should not be used as a system of combat but rather as a path for self- and world improvements. "Aikido is not to defeat the enemy," he said, "but to make no enemy."

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 02:03 PM   #143
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
That's one perspective...I would suggest that the first and original purpose for the Martial Arts as Bodhidharma envisioned them was a bit different. Martial Movement and Exercise is a physical "way" to reach a spiritual" state of being." Perhaps in the beginning folks understood they had (and still do under certain circumstances) a practical application on the "battlefield" but it's "spiritual" application has been around for a very long time too...Tai Chi anyone?...

I think the founders of the Gendai Arts in Japan Funakoshi, Kano, and Ushiba realized that the Japanese versions anyway had to come full circle and focus on something more than just a fighting system...

So lets give our pal Bodhi a little credit...I would like to think he realized although the technical aspects of Martial Movement may not be relevant today from a practical standpoint The goal of Martial Movement is "spiritual development" and that my dear friends is timeless...

Thanks to Shoji Nishio and others I now understand that the only thing I ever plan on cutting with my sword is...

My own bulls*t LOL

William Hazen
Considering where this discussion may appear to be going the same old Aikido is not a Martial Art nonsense I would like to add something to this...
If I had to cut something other than my own bulls*t could I using the technical applications within our Aikido with Martial Effectiveness?
The answer is yes....

We're not the only form of Aikido that functions as a Martial Art/Budo. So the question you have to answer with your Aikido is not if it works...But what purpose does it serve in you?
Combat?
"Self" Defense?
Emotional and Spiritual Development?
All of these things?
None of these things?
I believe that the first two must be present on some level in order to fully understand and appreciate the last. It's a process that must incorporate all three to be a Budo...

Whatever works for you right?

I am fully confident my practice will serve me in any Martial "Real Life" situation...

How about you? If the answer is no....then what?

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 10:05 PM   #144
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Considering where this discussion may appear to be going the same old Aikido is not a Martial Art nonsense I would like to add something to this...
If I had to cut something other than my own bulls*t could I using the technical applications within our Aikido with Martial Effectiveness?
The answer is yes....

We're not the only form of Aikido that functions as a Martial Art/Budo. So the question you have to answer with your Aikido is not if it works...But what purpose does it serve in you?
Combat?
"Self" Defense?
Emotional and Spiritual Development?
All of these things?
None of these things?
I believe that the first two must be present on some level in order to fully understand and appreciate the last. It's a process that must incorporate all three to be a Budo...

Whatever works for you right?

I am fully confident my practice will serve me in any Martial "Real Life" situation...

How about you? If the answer is no....then what?

William Hazen
I think if the answer is no then you have to answer where the "bu" comes from in your budo.
Personally I'd love to take a couple of years out and tour the world to see just what all these different Aikido styles are doing that is so different from what I'm doing that they can't see, what to me, seem to be obvious martial lessons.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 10:08 PM   #145
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
Don Draeger said, "Uyeshiba's aikido is a highly weakened form of hand-to-hand combat. Aikido is essentially noncombative in nature. Further, the omission of atemi (strikes) from its techniques removes aikido from the category of practical hand-to-hand combat styles."
Don Draeger should have met Chiba. A quote passed on in our lineage from Chiba is "He said there were no strikes in Aikido, so I hit him again."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 10:09 PM   #146
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
Interesting article:
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/544

Lau wrote his aikido instructor in Hawaii, asking for answers. The reply came swiftly by phone: "In street combat situations," his instructor said, "you must use kicking and punching. Aikido alone will not work."

Don Draeger said, "Uyeshiba's aikido is a highly weakened form of hand-to-hand combat. Aikido is essentially noncombative in nature. Further, the omission of atemi (strikes) from its techniques removes aikido from the category of practical hand-to-hand combat styles."

Uyeshiba thought aikido should not be used as a system of combat but rather as a path for self- and world improvements. "Aikido is not to defeat the enemy," he said, "but to make no enemy."
Yeah, i read this article in the other thread...just having got back from an aikido class in which i used atemi - quite a lot - i don't see it as being accurate. I've also got a tecnique book by Moriteru Ueshiba, and there is plenty of atemi in it...

And if you can enter/move quick enough - whether you do aikido or aiki-jujutsu - then surely that is what matters?
I mean, there are enough techniques in both to enable you to restrain/harm people, and you can quite easily integrate atemi into aikido techniques - particularly if you actually practice it as a martial art. If you go to perform irimi-nage, for example, you can punch the person in the ribs/the face - there are all these openings...

From what very little i know of aiki-jujutsu (having a technique book, watching various videos...), there are three 'levels': the 1st being largely atemi, the 2nd atemi and some aiki principles, and the 3rd being almost entirely aiki - and it is this 3rd which aikido most resembles.
My view - at this moment: always subject to change, as i know very little, and make no claims whatsoever to the contrary - is that aikido is so tough because you're trying to learn to be of this highest standard, where you rely on technique, rather than brute strength.

I think somebody here has a saying/signature which reads 'Aikido works; your aikido doesn't'.
Perhaps this sums up this man's experience - it certainly doesn't sum up Morihei Ueshiba's, as he apparently took on all comers with his aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 10:12 PM   #147
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Don Draeger should have met Chiba. A quote passed on in our lineage from Chiba is "He said there were no strikes in Aikido, so I hit him again."
Haha.
I have read the account of Chiba sensei's trip to England: where he had a man coming at him with a knife, switching it from hand to hand, and he broke his arm if i recall correctly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 01:31 AM   #148
wideawakedreamer
 
wideawakedreamer's Avatar
Dojo: Bu Yuu Kan dojo
Location: Davao City
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 127
Philippines
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

"Further, the omission of atemi (strikes) from its techniques removes aikido from the category of practical hand-to-hand combat styles."

"Omission of atemi" my @##.

I include atemi in my techniques. The few times I don't, I'm looking at all the openings I can exploit when I do decide to hit uke.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 01:33 AM   #149
wideawakedreamer
 
wideawakedreamer's Avatar
Dojo: Bu Yuu Kan dojo
Location: Davao City
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 127
Philippines
Offline
Thumbs up Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Don Draeger should have met Chiba. A quote passed on in our lineage from Chiba is "He said there were no strikes in Aikido, so I hit him again."
I love this quote. Was it Chiba who said this?

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 01:17 PM   #150
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 404
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
David Ho wrote: View Post
No one, at this point in history at least, can argue that overall human beings are still the best at receiving, communicating, and processing information.
I'll argue that David!
Fully functional and intelligent humans of the same language and culture ARE the best at all that gubbins.
If you're thinking about technological units which are already synchronised then they are the FASTEST at communicating ... but that's cheating. (and they're pretty rubbish at receiving.)

But totally off-topic, sorry Jun.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 02:35 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 05:52 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 10:50 PM
Proposta organização do Aikido Portugal kimusubi0 Portuguese 0 05-03-2004 04:26 AM
Propostarganização do Aikido em Portugal kimusubi0 French 0 05-01-2004 03:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:45 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate