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Old 03-11-2010, 03:02 PM   #101
"Anon"
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
But they do do that in competitive martial arts.

I think there is a separation between aikido training and competitive martial art training. Majorly. In assumption and tactics.

Competitive martial arts are for title and entertainment. Boxing, MAA, competitive BJJ and Judo... They are sports.(some of which are even Olympic sports.) I don't see Aikido like that. It was made to work outside of the "no below the belt" and "no small joint locks" rules.

I'm not gonna throw aikido out the window because I can't wipe the floor with a boxer.
Nor would I think a British General was a poor strategist if he couldn't defeat me in a game of chess...

And if you can wipe the floor with a boxer.. more power to you.
Boxing, MMA, Judo all have the characteristics of budo. Despite the audience who watch for entertainment, most of the actual practicioners do it for their own purposes. Which are typically not to satisfy the audience.

You state Aikido was "made to work outside of the "no below the belt" and "no small joint locks" rules." I would contend that since Aikido wasn't developed with fighting in mind. It would also not be that great at any kind of all out combat. (Sure you might learn some basics of fighting/self defense from Aikido eventually. But this is completely auxillary. It's not the primary goal of the art.)

Further there is a huge difference between sparring/randori and fighting/shiai/going all out. When comparing arts, simply holding one's own in a friendly spar doesn't mean you're combatively superior than them.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:15 PM   #102
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Boxing, MMA, Judo all have the characteristics of budo. Despite the audience who watch for entertainment, most of the actual practicioners do it for their own purposes. Which are typically not to satisfy the audience.

You state Aikido was "made to work outside of the "no below the belt" and "no small joint locks" rules." I would contend that since Aikido wasn't developed with fighting in mind. It would also not be that great at any kind of all out combat. (Sure you might learn some basics of fighting/self defense from Aikido eventually. But this is completely auxillary. It's not the primary goal of the art.)

Further there is a huge difference between sparring/randori and fighting/shiai/going all out. When comparing arts, simply holding one's own in a friendly spar doesn't mean you're combatively superior than them.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
Judo and other arts in it of themselves and for the practitioners are budo. I'm talking about the "sporting" side, because people are speaking about literally competing on mat-terms with aikido against these arts. Making it a match of sorts.

I don't consider aikido combative, it was never meant for combat. I think it can be used for self-defense. But it is not meant to begin, end, or participate in fights. Aikido is a conscious acknowledgment that there is a fight, followed by a conscious decision to not participate in said fight.

In the end the best way to beat a boxer would be to learn how to box...

if beating a boxer is some one's goal as an Aikidoka, they should of been a boxer and has wasted many years of training.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the individual Aikidoka going to other styles to test themselves. So long as you don't view it ignorantly as anything but you testing yourself. Not you testing Aikido.
Aikido doesn't have anything to prove to some kyu or dan. If the
Aikidoka truly believes that Aikido has to prove its worth to them, then they really haven't been learning Aikido.

My opinion, respectfully.

Last edited by RED : 03-11-2010 at 06:22 PM.

MM
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Old 03-12-2010, 04:32 AM   #103
bulevardi
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

1, one can say, aikido is not about fighting. Aikido is about not fighting.
2, it is a martial art, one can say it is a self-defense sport. So it contains fighting: attacking and defending.
3, some say, aikido is about creating harmony between the 2 opponents, getting the flow of energy and passing it to the other.

Personally I think aikido attacks are not always real life attacks like on the street, for example katatetori or shomen uchi.
If someone gets attacked on the streets, it's like head knocks, elbow kicks, real boxing...
Real combo's of kicking and boxing, instead of one simple soft atemi.
I can admit honestly that I can't defend myself properly on real attacks, doing only aikido techniques that are based on aikido attacks.

For me, aikido techniques work well in the dojo, doing an aikido attack. Not with a streetwise attack.
Because on the tatami, you use it like number 3 above: creating harmony between the 2 opponents, 2 people work together on a technique. That's not the way in a real life attack.

The sensei corrects me when I put my feet different as an uke, doing an attack. In real life, you are not going to say to your attacker: 'your feet are wrong positioned'.

In this case, Aikido mostly stays in the dojo, as a martial ART. Not as a real streetwise self-defending sport. Otherwise it would be done in competition aswel.

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Old 03-12-2010, 09:42 AM   #104
Ketsan
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
John Butz wrote: View Post
Respectfully Alex, this is showing ignorance of the concept of Rules of Engagement. Yes, yes, I know the "real world has no rules" and I won't debate that point. But even in the real world there are limitations to the use of force. You can NOT deploy as much force as you want against a person who is attacking you unless circumstances warrant it. Obviously, RoE is a lot stricter for police and miltary personnel than for civilian slobs like me, but even so, had the incident you describe here occured on the street, I think your friend would have been the one charged with assualt.

Frankly, even within the dojo, had this happened to me without my consenting to you using strikes, I would have called the police and this would have ended up being taken to court as a case of assualt.

Now, had it been discussed ahead of time that the aikidoist had every intention to use strikes, and that the judoka was allowed to do that same in return, and that contact would be hard and potantially dangerous, and both agreed to it, well then it is the judoka's own damn fault for getting hit in the face.

However, if I had been asking for a reasonably friendly exchange of information in the form of a demo or even randori, and your friend went about slugging me, knocking me down, and kicking my head in without making sure I was game for that level of intensity, he would havebeen at fault, and potentially criminally at fault.

I have done jacketed wrestling with judo players, on their terms and using their rules, and done ok. I have grappled with wrestlers and BJJer guys on their terms and their rules and done ok. I have also been schooled by all of the above at different times too, and maybe that is because the rules got in the way. In my mind it is more likely that they were better than I, or that I needed to be better at aikido. I don't know. All I know is that I have exchanged fairly vigourous practice with a variety of people from a variety of arts without feeling the need to hurt them in order to win.

The people we train with have a reasonable expectation to go home after training without being maliciously injured. Yes, training properly with intention will result in injuries, and if you are on the mat you accept that risk. I have hurt and have been hurt by my training partners. However, those inuries occured in environements where all parties knew what was happening going in and we were willing to accept the results of our actions.

I appreciate that you and your group train hard and have martial ability. And I am glad what you do works against resistance and in a variety of venues. But that is no excuse for irresponsibile use of force.
Legality and ethics are a seperate issue. We're talking about pure practicality.I don't disagree with you I just think it's a seperate issue.
If the Judoka had tried to have a pop at my mate in a bar the same thing would have happened. That's my point.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:54 AM   #105
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

It's interesting that people still confuse the difference between a competition/duel and an attack/ambush.

Personally I think if one is using Aikido or anything else for self defense one should never try to have a fair fight. It should always be unfair in your favour. This is why we have kuzushi in Aikido to destroy the balance of the larger, stronger opponent. If we wanted to be fair the larger/stronger person wins every time.

Competition training often gives one certain skills brought from practicing with resistant opponents who know what you can do based on the rule set (e.g. Judo). So it can definitely benefit one in a fight, as long as one understands where the competition rules end and survival begins.

But in an ambush situation (especially where you are the target), the longer the encounter goes the lower your chances of survival, so again in many self defence situations (which are mostly ambushes) one really needs to find ways of survival and escape instead of ways to "fight" better imho. I think good Aikido training offers a few options in this area but it depends on the individual and the training method. I've seen some good fighters who got badly injured or worse because they focused too much on fighting instead of surviving and escaping.

For me, Aikido has never failed in real life. Maybe it's because I practice a competitive form of Aikido, maybe its because I know how to differentiate between the mindset required to compete and the one required for survival. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Imho in a competition one should follow the rules. In a life or death encounter one should do what is needed to survive. There is a big difference. The rules we generally have to comply with in either case are called Laws. In most places, legally one is allowed to do only with is necessary to cease violence being done to oneself, which means that if/when you gain the advantage and can escape safely you should do so and cease the infliction of any additional injury on the aggressor(s). So imho the head stomp used by Alex's friend may be an option depending on the nature of the threat at the time. The thing about the legalities of self defence is "it depends on each situation".

Just a few thoughts.

LC

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Old 03-12-2010, 10:36 AM   #106
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
If someone gets attacked on the streets, it's like head knocks, elbow kicks, real boxing...
Real combo's of kicking and boxing, instead of one simple soft atemi.
I can admit honestly that I can't defend myself properly on real attacks, doing only aikido techniques that are based on aikido attacks.
This is quite an interesting point to me, this is something I give a lot of thought to. Can someone tell me what the BJJ defence against boxing strikes is? How does a BJJer counter a flurry of punches and kicks?

This to me is where things really get interesting and it leads onto interesting questions about the value of resistive training but that's another issue.

In theory you should be able to walk up to a BJJer and punch his head in with no difficulty. There's nothing in his art that prepares him for boxing attacks or kick boxing attacks. Yet no-one here would claim that BJJers can't take on strikers and win.

Strategically Aikido and BJJ are identical. When attacked we both enter in with the intention of unbalancing on contact, we both take our opponents to the ground.

So this "Aikido vs realistic attacks" thing is actually a very poor argument. If it were true BJJ wouldn't have the status it has today, the gracies would have been KO'd in the early UFCs and that would have been it.

If there's a problem in Aikido it's that we can't see how much alike jodan tsuki and a jab are. We can't see that they both come down the centreline that they both come off what ends up being the lead arm. We can't see that a boxer or kick boxer who's being held by the neck and upper arm, as for irimi nage, is a neutralised threat.

We can't see that all we have to do to get to this position is dominate the centreline, as taught by weapons work, for a fraction of a second. In the same way a BJJer only has to avoid getting punched for a fraction of a second while he gets his take down in, except the BJJer doesn't have the advantage of having his hands up to deal with any punches that get thrown and they still manage it.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:34 PM   #107
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Aikido in and of it self cannot fail...the failure is generated by those who in it´s name abuse it by improper instruction,application and attitude.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:42 PM   #108
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Wayne Gorski wrote: View Post
Aikido in and of it self cannot fail...the failure is generated by those who in it´s name abuse it by improper instruction,application and attitude.
To play devil's advocate. When we're relying upon arguments that the majority of aikidoka are doing subpar weapons work or attacks. Why wouldn't it be fair to say the art has failed in those respects?

Sure we can blame individuals up to a point. But when there are faults that the majority has, in an art that is supposed to be practicing and teaching these things. Whose fault is it?

The skilled teacher for not teaching his unskilled students properly and then saying it's ok for them to teach? The student who wants these skills for not getting their unskilled teacher to raise the bar of their own standards. IE going out and improving their own stuff so they can spread it to the students? The organizations fault for allowing these unskilled teachers to teach? The student for being lazy because their teacher lets them be lazy?

It's like saying Aikido has *aiki. Which 95% of the practicioners don't even have. In which case it would be fair to say that Aikido, as is widely practiced, DOES NOT have aiki. If 99% of practicioners don't have Aiki would it be fair that Aikido does not have Aiki?

I think it is fair to judge the majority. And if the majority is what represents/defines the art... then you can draw your own conclusions about the art. HUMBUG! some of you might say. That's not THE REAL AIKIDO(tm)!

Honestly what's so unfair about such a judgement? Sure we had the founder and his students were exceptionally skilled. But their skills seem to not have been passed on by the majority.)

As for the BJJ and Aikido scenario. Well some schools in BJJ don't do striking, some do'nt. (Have'nt visited that many to be honest, apart from the one I practice at.) However the general 'defense' for BJJ from my experience. Is to protect the head, shoot in, and go for some kind of takedown. Preferrably with a good position for you.

But assuming one has practicioners of equal skill from both schools. With limited training in dealing against strikes. There's a bit of a difference. The BJJ guy since has been doing body to body grappling and the Aikidoka arm's length grappling.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:50 PM   #109
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
However the general 'defense' for BJJ from my experience. Is to protect the head, shoot in, and go for some kind of takedown. Preferrably with a good position for you.
.
Uh yeah, like I said, Aikido and BJJ share the same strategy.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:55 PM   #110
Ketsan
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

[quote]=Anonymous User;253745]
I think it is fair to judge the majority. [quote]

You're the majority. Do we judge your art by you?

Last edited by Ketsan : 03-12-2010 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:31 AM   #111
"Aleksey"
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Aikido fails me anytime I do any sort of sparring with someone who knows how to box or grapple.

What fails me far less in such situations, is using boxing techniques.

It is not possible to get behind a boxer or a Judo/Sambo practitioner, unless they really suck. It is not even possible to get into a position allowing for irimi nage.

Nikkyo may work if you're really good, and if you forgo traditional Aikido retention for one including their thumb - much harder to get out of that one in time.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:36 PM   #112
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

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It is not possible to get behind a boxer or a Judo/Sambo practitioner,
Grab head, twist.

Not directly, Judoka have a tendancy to stand nearly square on so your attack has to take this into account. If you really want to go behind a Judoka you need to attack with something like ushiro ryote katadori or morote dori and you need to get in first and then you cut them down.
I wouldn't even worry about doing a technique. Take them off balance and feel where they're going and just keep them moving. I wouldn't even worry about getting behind them truth be told. With a Judoka you have two things to think about.

1) Positioning yourself somewhere they can't use their kumi kata effectively; deny them control of your centreline by not offering it in the first place.
2) Maintaining your posture.

Boxers are Judoka that can't grapple. If they can't KO you as you enter in behind your guard it's all over for them. If you get a hand on any part of them it's over for them. Aim for his head, chances are the jab will come flying out, hit your hands and then you backfoot irimi his lead arm out of the way, turning him by cutting the elbow as for chudan irimi nage, if possible.
If not as long as you get that lead arm across his body and you physically get hold of him so that he can't back off and open up to striking range again you've got him in a position from which he can't really recover.
Take his head, get it on your shoulder, take him to the floor. Or you can slide your hand down his bicep to his wrist, other hand goes on his elbow and cut him down to the floor and go for one of the submissions.

Again there are two things to worry about with boxers.
1) Dominating the centre line which cuts down their techniques basically to hooks, unless they really like punching your hands.
2) Closing the distance.

Tony Blauer talks about this but in a less aggressive way than I am. He's talking about dealing with being attacked by a boxer, I'm talking about attacking a boxer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i9in2e8rMw
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:44 PM   #113
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Aikido fails me anytime I do any sort of sparring with someone who knows how to box or grapple.

What fails me far less in such situations, is using boxing techniques.

It is not possible to get behind a boxer or a Judo/Sambo practitioner, unless they really suck. It is not even possible to get into a position allowing for irimi nage.

Nikkyo may work if you're really good, and if you forgo traditional Aikido retention for one including their thumb - much harder to get out of that one in time.
The best way to beat a boxer is to box him.

Boxing is a striking art, Aikido is a jujitsu. You have to understand the two very different assumptions in which they were developed under.
Aikido was never developed with the assumption of sport or sparring,or contest. Nor was boxing developed with the assumption of multiple attackers, submission attacks or weapon retention.

Wanna beat a boxer, learn how to box.

MM
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:31 PM   #114
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

I'm aware of your points, Maggie. However, the best way to beat a boxer is not to box him. If you box a boxer, boxer wins.

The boxer is also an abstraction of a larger problem - how would Aikidoka deal with attacks from someone who is not 100% clueless about attacking. Someone who forces their game, and there's no escape.

I don't believe Judo is a realistic martial art, but it is also an abstraction for someone who maintains their balance and thus also forces a certain game.

For instance, this street bully - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eDJgYITx94 - is no world champion. However, I firmly believe he would cream 85% of Aikido shodans out there, simply because in Aikido, speed is frowned upon as something "low-level", while it is absolutely vital in reality.

I do not have a lot of faith in Aikido's shodan-rank individuals being able to withstand something like an aggressive attack from a 16-year-old teenager (unless they have fighting experience from elsewhere), and I deem that to be a problem.

Alex, that's an informative post, just as your earlier post in this thread was. It is certainly interesting in theory, and I've tried a number of similar approaches. The one I'm trying to get to work now is tying up the boxer's hands in opposite directions, making it to his side while keeping pressure on the arms, putting a foot behind him and cutting across his neck to the opposite shoulder. A slightly brutalized version of an Aikido/Daito Ryu technique.

With Judo/Sambo my most successful tactics were either

a) extremely quickly canceling their throw as they put their full intent into it (if lucky)
b) doing a kokyunage--->sankyo by rotating into/under one of their arms

As I'm trying to make Aikido work for me, however, I come to the conclusion that basic boxing tactics have to be the at the front of the defense. The Blauer's spear, and Dimitri's Senshido, and similar systems, they all basically teach you to guard your face and body, like a boxer, only in a less "visibly" combative manner, and they're less thorough about explaining the body positioning involved.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:46 PM   #115
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Grab head, twist.
1) Positioning yourself somewhere they can't use their kumi kata effectively; deny them control of your centreline by not offering it in the first place.
2) Maintaining your posture.
Alright, I'll bite. How do you do this? Personally I don't think Judoka necessarily need to control the centerline to establish kuzushi.

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Aikido was never developed with the assumption of sport or sparring,or contest. Nor was boxing developed with the assumption of multiple attackers, submission attacks or weapon retention.
Aikido not being a sport. I agree. But not sparring? I disagree. I think it would be fair to assume that Ueshiba sparred with his students, in his own way. Pre-Aikido Ueshiba certainly sparred. (I believe there's an account by Stanley Pranin or maybe Ellis Amdur about a young Ueshiba trying his Daito Ryu waza against a friend of his, a sumo practicioner, and getting his ass kicked repeatedly.) Tomiki aikido competes and spars and what they do is still Aikido.

As for the subject of boxing not developed with the assumption of multiple attackers, submissions, and weapon retention, we agree. But if you're trying to infer that Aikido teaches these things I unfortunately disagree. (If you were'nt my mistake.)

Most multiple attack scenarios I've seen are good training tools. And help develop some tactics on the subject. But in terms of actually training against multiple attackers is not so great. (Most of the time uke's seem to be hesitant and attack one after another. If one uke was willing to just grab their teachers leg while the others drag sensei down, problem solved.

Submissions? Well ok.

Weapon retention? Well...... I don't think those disarms would work on a kendoka or koryu practicioner.

I mean Aikido is fun and it's good at what it does. But claiming things outside of aikido's area of expertise... especially when we don't train these things well.... is rude.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:17 PM   #116
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Alot of fundamentalist and dogmatic talk about what stuff is and isn't. Without commenting to a particular post of poster.....

Some of you guys simply put, IMO, do not have a clue about what you are talking about when it comes to what "IS" and what "IS NOT".

I think if you had a breadth of exposure across the spectrum of conflict, you'd see how inane some of this discussion actually is concerning martial arts and martial training methodologies.

Larry Cameo offers some great insights above.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is what it is IMO, and this is what this forum is supposed to be discussing.

IMO, arts like Judo, Aikido, BJJ and many others offer great context from which to gain various experiences.

Ironically I am in the process of preparing my unit to go down range and what we are training on is really a blend of many things as we develop strategies for dealing with the threats we will possibly face.

What I have found interesting is not the techinques, as we are not teaching ANY techniques, but focusing on macro movements that center around taking center and balance and positional dominance that is seen in the Jiu Jitsu based arts of Aikido, BJJ, and Judo.

I feel comfortable to say that all three of these arts have elements that have assisted me greatly with AIkido and BJJ being the two best ones...however, in actuality, we spend most of our time in a TMA dojo "over training"...which is a good thing.

Unfortunately, with that, comes the tunnel vision and over focusing on techniques, and specificity because we really want what we do everyday in practice to have some great meaning like Shionage, or Iriminage.

I can tell you...that while these things give us great practice and a great reference point to base a system of learning on...I have yet to teach my guys ONE of those things or used them in the training environment.

That does not mean that these things are a waste of time to practice or study in budo....just that the meaning of their importance needs to be kept in perspective when looking at reality!

How do you fight a boxer? well that depends. I certainly wouldn't box him. I might shoot him, I might club him, I might clinch him and choke him out...or I might walk away. (see Larry's comments above about a fair fight). I certainly would not sit there and trade crosses, jabs, and upper cuts with him bare handed..but that is me! (Sorry Maggie).

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Old 03-14-2010, 07:29 PM   #117
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Alright, I'll bite. How do you do this? Personally I don't think Judoka necessarily need to control the centerline to establish kuzushi.

Aikido not being a sport. I agree. But not sparring? I disagree. I think it would be fair to assume that Ueshiba sparred with his students, in his own way. Pre-Aikido Ueshiba certainly sparred. (I believe there's an account by Stanley Pranin or maybe Ellis Amdur about a young Ueshiba trying his Daito Ryu waza against a friend of his, a sumo practicioner, and getting his ass kicked repeatedly.) Tomiki aikido competes and spars and what they do is still Aikido.
.
I was referring to a typical sport's sparring. The good ol' "no below the belt." Sparring match.
I'm of no opinion either way, but some Aikidoka question whether or not competitive Aikido is still Aikido from a philosophical stand-point. As I said, I have no strong opinion on that at this time however.

Last edited by RED : 03-14-2010 at 07:33 PM.

MM
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:31 PM   #118
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

How do you fight a boxer? well that depends. I certainly wouldn't box him. I might shoot him, I might club him, I might clinch him and choke him out...or I might walk away. (see Larry's comments above about a fair fight). I certainly would not sit there and trade crosses, jabs, and upper cuts with him bare handed..but that is me! (Sorry Maggie).
LOL that might work too!

But I was referring to beating him in a ring, for pride, not life.
In which case I think boxing would do you better than Aikido, if winning a boxing match was your aim.

MM
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:40 PM   #119
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I'm of no opinion either way, but some Aikidoka question whether or not competitive Aikido is still Aikido from a philosophical stand-point.
Well Maggie it depends on who you consider to be an Aikidoka, which definition of Aikido one is using and which philosophy in particular. Honestly I see more competition in Aikido dojos who profess to be "non-competitive" due to the absence of any objective measure of skill, which results in egocentric posturing and the like. On the flip side I have taught and trained with many styles of Aikido (esp. Aikikai and Yoshinkan) and except for shiai itself, everything is recognizable as part of typical Aikido training. At least by those who train it as a martial art.

You guys would do well to read Kevin's post above imho. There is a lot of good info there.

One last point on Boxing a Boxer - if you train in a particular method and you come up against someone who trains in a different method then unless you also train as much in that method you will come up lacking. You will not find strikers who can grapple to the level of a Judoka / Jujutsuka unless the striker puts in the time and effort to train in that method and approach to combat. The reverse is also true.

Best

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 03-14-2010 at 10:43 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:50 PM   #120
akiy
 
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

I have moved this thread out of the "Anonymous" forum into the "Training" forum, as I haven't seen any need for anonymity in the responses.

-- Jun

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Old 03-15-2010, 03:03 AM   #121
Chicko Xerri
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

In real life when you fail, you fail yourself. It has nothing to do with the Ai Ki Way. This question comes from the mind focused only on technique practice.

I some times wonder what people are studying and being taught in dojos around the world.
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Old 03-15-2010, 03:22 AM   #122
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Did basketball fail Michael Jordan during his career as a baseball player?

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:40 AM   #123
Ketsan
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Alright, I'll bite. How do you do this? Personally I don't think Judoka necessarily need to control the centerline to establish kuzushi.
You're right, they don't, but kuzushi isn't really what I'm bothered about, it takes a while for a Judoka to establish kuzushi even if they get a good grip.
If a Judoka gets a hand on your centreline that's it virtually over because your ability to move effectively just evaporated, you're now tied in with the Judoka. This is why I say that you have to deny them the centreline. The other reason of course is that Judoka are used to being able to use their normal Kumi kata, why fight where they're strongest?

Other than that it's just psychopathically attacking the shoulder with ai hamni kata dori or going for morote dori, but this has to be done with speed and aggression, more speed and aggression than most Aikidoka, in my experience, are used to.

And the nano second you make contact then you need to drop your posture, sugi ashi back, make tenkan, whatever you need to do to break their posture. Sometimes you can get in behind sometimes you can pretty much just pull them over. Sometimes you end up clinging on their arm going round and round in circles. As Kevin says I wouldn't worry about techniques. Worry about speed, speed, speed, violence of action, speed and suprise.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:26 AM   #124
bulevardi
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Did basketball fail Michael Jordan during his career as a baseball player?
No, by playing basketball no... but maybe by playing football with a basketball it would... but my point of view was to use it in real life attacks on the street.

For example: you don't use a basketball to defend yourself on a street attack, but you can if you carry one at that moment. Same for aikido, if you're an aikidoka, you can use Aikido to defend yourself in a street attack. It doesn't say it will always work.

Because: in Aikido you learn to defend yourself with aikido-attacks. On the street you could get attacked by other ways, kicks, strikes and combos of strikes, weapons (others than used in dojo),...
In that point of view, aikido will not fail with aikido attacks, but perhaps it's possible to fail with other attacks...

Last edited by bulevardi : 03-15-2010 at 09:29 AM.

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Old 03-15-2010, 09:58 AM   #125
Aikibu
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Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?

Life has "failed" me more times than I can count and so has Aikido....The point is.... are they teachable moments from which I can learn... or should I just move on...

There seems to be a Zero Defect Black or White attitude about this subject....

Thank God Life is infinitely more complex otherwise I would be running around like some arrogant crazy chicken looking for "things" that would never fail me...

The only place life/Aikido is not "realistic" is in my own crazy chicken mind...

Have fun you rascals...I've got 10 Bazillion more sword cuts to enjoy...LOL

William Hazen
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