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Old 02-10-2006, 01:51 PM   #176
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Self-defense art?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
i see that Joshua, but i read it as none of this to be weapons, and practice...
Well I assumed the "I was on my way home from training" was meant as context for why he was carrying weapons. Had he mentioned how many years he'd been training, or the intent with which he trains, I could see reading it your way, but as it is,
Quote:
I'd just like to say that I teach Aikido and not self-defense. Yes it is a part of it but not the whole reason I train.
Sean indicates here that his Aikido training is global in scope, not localized for purely self-defense.
Quote:
One point I would like to make, Uke.
Here, Sean provides context for what follows: it will be about being an uke.
Quote:
I was attack a number of years ago by two lad in a underpass. I was on my way home from training and had my weapons and all. None of this helped me at all. But when I hit the floor they walked off a little, it was than I saw them turn around and come back. It was to me the fact I was on my feet and telling them my sister hits harder that them, that they walked away saying I was not right in the head.
Here, he simply describes what happened, and how he survived the encounter.
Quote:
Yes it could have been a lot worst, and yes by saying what I did may have getting me another beating. But the idea I got up may have put them off, I put this down to being a good uke. A good hard kicking in the dojo teaches you to get back on your feet.
Here Sean refers back to his "Uke" comment. Being an uke in training is what saved him. Rather than suggesting his training failed him, he's saying the exact opposite.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 02-10-2006, 02:11 PM   #177
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

i don't disagree, Josh, but we are discussing the effectiveness of aikido for self defense and specifically how ones training affects this... so the points you made are valid, but what i am asking is different in scope... as i believe all aikido training should give us skills that we could use in just such an encounter... my comment about the pointy sticks was my feeling that even an untrained person should have a possibility of dissuading two street punks... we need more info to really explore this situation... his ukemi may have helped but the fact that his attackers let him be and possibly luck seems to me to be more central to this situation... it is just as important to understand the situations where aikido did not "work" ,and why, as the ones where it did... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 04:06 PM   #178
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Self-defense art?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
i don't disagree, Josh, but we are discussing the effectiveness of aikido for self defense and specifically how ones training affects this... so the points you made are valid, but what i am asking is different in scope... as i believe all aikido training should give us skills that we could use in just such an encounter... my comment about the pointy sticks was my feeling that even an untrained person should have a possibility of dissuading two street punks... we need more info to really explore this situation... his ukemi may have helped but the fact that his attackers let him be and possibly luck seems to me to be more central to this situation... it is just as important to understand the situations where aikido did not "work" ,and why, as the ones where it did... with respect...
No, my point is, we don't need more info, nor to explore the situation. Sean was making a point about a particular aspect of aikido, and how it aided him in the situation. To focus on why he got nailed in the first place misses the forest for the trees. I don't believe Sean has suggested he is at the level where his aikido can fully serve him in fending off attackers. Nick, who seems to know more about it, says he was sucker punched. So there you go. He never had a chance to dissuade them, and I'm sure his "pointy sticks" were in a weapons bag. Let's focus on the point Sean was making.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 02-10-2006, 04:15 PM   #179
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

But i would like more info, and to explore the situation, and i do feel it is important why/how he was nailed in the first place... if people don't want to talk about this okay, but i would like to talk about these things in a thread about aikido and self defense situations... i am not denying the point Sean made about ukemi, but i am interested in more than just ukemi in a SD situation... with respect...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 04:57 PM   #180
Nick Simpson
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Re: Self-defense art?

Well, for information on this particular incident, I beilieve you'll have to wait and ask Sean for more details next time he is online. However, as I understand it, he was indeed sucker-punched, with a particularly nasty weapon. His weapons would have been in their bag over his shoulder/back and not really of any use or particularly quick or easy to access. And to be honest, I wouldnt recommend anyone attempt to use a bokken in a real encounter.

If someone is intent on hitting you, especially if it is out of the blue then there is little you can do about it. Take it on the chin, get back up again and deal with them in whatever manner you can. This is what is important, in my mind at least.

'No, my point is, we don't need more info, nor to explore the situation. Sean was making a point about a particular aspect of aikido, and how it aided him in the situation. To focus on why he got nailed in the first place misses the forest for the trees. I don't believe Sean has suggested he is at the level where his aikido can fully serve him in fending off attackers. Nick, who seems to know more about it, says he was sucker punched. So there you go. He never had a chance to dissuade them, and I'm sure his "pointy sticks" were in a weapons bag. Let's focus on the point Sean was making.'

Joshua, I am in total agreeance with you.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:09 PM   #181
Michael Varin
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Re: Self-defense art?

The posts that revolve around Sean's incident made me think of something I read a long time ago in a book on Japanese swordsmanship.

A prospective swordsman was told by a master that he would have to live and work on the master's farm for an indefinite time before he could begin training. While the student was working, the master would sneak up on him, and hit him on the head with a hard stick. The student put up with this because of his desire to learn from this master, until one occasion where the student avoided an unexpected strike. The master then told him he could begin his technical training, because he had already learned the difficult lesson.

Like many of these old stories, this may or may not be true, but it nonetheless addresses something important. A heightened awareness of the present moment. I believe this is a cornerstone of self-defense. One should never be blindsided if their awareness is adequate. I don't know Sean, and don't mean to make it personal, so we can speak hypothetically if analyzing his particular situation is too sensitive.

Nick said, "There is little one can do when sucker punched, it is what you do after that counts..."

Of course, perseverance and will to survive are important, but someone who can see an ambush coming and steer clear of it will be more successful than the most highly trained fighter who unknowingly walks into an ambush and then has to fight his way out. Interestingly, Jack Dempsey (one of the last real boxers) said that the name 'sucker punch' is from the fact that the person who through the punch is the sucker, not its intended target!

Nick also said, "And to be honest, I wouldnt recommend anyone attempt to use a bokken in a real encounter."

Why not? Assuming the bokken is accessible, it would be foolish not to. A bokken can be a potent weapon. And in the majority of instances weapons act as a deterrent.

Numbers. The element of surprise. Awareness. Weapons. All critically important in my mind. Anymore thoughts on these subjects?

Michael
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:18 PM   #182
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

the very things i wanted to discuss and explore... before i was hit by a stick...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-11-2006, 08:30 AM   #183
Nick Simpson
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Re: Self-defense art?

'Why not? Assuming the bokken is accessible, it would be foolish not to. A bokken can be a potent weapon. And in the majority of instances weapons act as a deterrent.'

Well, I imagine the weapons werent accessible, so its kind of a moot point. But in the interests of the thread: I know a bokken can be a deadly weapon, depending on the materials its made from it can be a dense wooden bat (basically) that can be swung with a fair amount of speed. However,it's long an unwieldy and could probably be easily pulled out of a persons grasp (it has no edge to prevent this). As a deterrent, yeah, maybe, but I would feel rather silly. I wouldnt really go for a pool cue or a bat in terms of 'to hand' weaponry, I'd prefer a bottle.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:55 AM   #184
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

"i imagine the weapons werent accessible"... just plain ridiculous... i carry a jo and bokken in a weapons bag and whether it is on your shoulder or in your hand it is accessible... there is no need to take them out of the bag... a solid tsuki along the centerline, or nanamae/shomen swing are both easily done in bag or not... a bokken should be considered a deadly weapon... Musashi is said to have used one often, and killed many challengers with one... "long and unwieldy", "easily pulled out of a persons grasp"... just as ridiculous... we 'practice 'wielding' these weapons... we practice techniques against grabs be it wrist or weapon... 'long' gives room for escape a primary goal in a SD situation... "i'd prefer a bottle"... you should probably stop watching so many movies... grab a 'weapon' that is as likely to break and cut you as your attacker? BRILLIANT!

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-11-2006, 01:08 PM   #185
Nick Simpson
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Re: Self-defense art?

Hi Edwin,

I did state that the bokken 'can' be a deadly weapon. Believe it or not, I am very familiar with Musashi, his writings and his history (as well as the subsequent myths).

A Bokken, jo and tanto in a weapons bag is a pretty unwieldy object to attack/defend with. Im sorry but I wouldnt really bother with it. Ok, of course we practise techniques from weapons grabs (that being where ai-hanmi originates from) but if there is 2 attackers it would not take long for them to grab and overwhelm the defender, with or without there deadly bag of weaponry...

''long' gives room for escape a primary goal in a SD situation'

I agree with this principle.

'you should probably stop watching so many movies'

Thanks for the advice Edwin, I will bear it in mind

'grab a 'weapon' that is as likely to break and cut you as your attacker? BRILLIANT'

Sorry, I disagree here. Im not adovcating use of a bottle in anything less than a last resort sort of situation (as it is not a 'nice' thing to do and would probably land you in prison), but I have seen people hit with a bottle and I think Im in a position to make my own mind up on this. Thanks.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:20 PM   #186
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

wouldn't bother with it??? then why bother at all just lie down and let them stomp you... we are talking about defending oneself... a weapons bag may be a bit awkward, but not bothering shows a lack of intention and tokon... just offering some "bother" to attackers may break their will to continue... as i am sure you will come to understand...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-11-2006, 01:23 PM   #187
Nick Simpson
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Re: Self-defense art?

By not bothering with the weapons bag/bokken, I did not mean not bother defending myself at all edwin. I would have assumed that this was pretty obvious, however, I'll fill in the blanks: I would have preferred to use my natural weapons - Hands, Feet, Elbows, Knees, Head, Teeth. Im off for the night, It's saturday and I have socialising to do. Easy all

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:26 PM   #188
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

why discard any weapon that gives a potential advantage...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-11-2006, 06:10 PM   #189
Cleetus
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Re: Self-defense art?

Hi just been reading this thread and I haven;t posted in a whle so i thhought I would put in my piece.

"why discard any weapon that gives a potential advantage."

The thing about using weapons is that they can easily be taken away from you and used against you. If they are live weapons then they would not try it but its a weapons bag they have nothing to deter them from taking them. If there is multiple attackers it does not take much for one to restrain you and for the other to take you weapon and use it on you(especially if you didn;t see the attack coming). As Nick stated

"I would have preferred to use my natural weapons - Hands, Feet, Elbows, Knees, Head, Teeth."

These are weapons that you will always have with you and don't have to worry about loosing them in a fight they will always be there and ready to use. Also if you rely on using weapons too much then your going to be in trouble if you loose them. If you are prepared to fight without them then do so.

Also in todays society with the CCTV there is constantly used the use of unarmed defence is better. If you are using your hands, feet etc is seen as self defence but with weapons it would be seen as malicious intent.
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Old 02-11-2006, 07:40 PM   #190
Michael Varin
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Re: Self-defense art?

Nick Smith said, "The thing about using weapons is that they can easily be taken away from you and used against you."

This can be true if you lack the training and, more importantly, the will to use your weapon. However, if you look at the techniques of aikido with no preconceived notions, you will see that they all address retaining possession of your weapon, so that you can continue to use it against your attacker(s). I am not just talking about tachi/jo dori/nage. I'm talking about all of the techniques. Why do you think there are all those wrist/arm grabs? Because that is such an effective empty-hand attack?

Nick Smith said, "These [hands, feet, elbows, knees, head, teeth] are weapons that you will always have with you and don't have to worry about loosing them in a fight they will always be there and ready to use."

Please, don't misconstrue what I am saying. Learning to use your body weapons is important. If you believe that you can't lose them, well, you have never considered what happens when blade meets flesh, when club meets bone. You can lose them!

Nick Smith said, "Also in todays society with the CCTV there is constantly used the use of unarmed defence is better. If you are using your hands, feet etc is seen as self defence but with weapons it would be seen as malicious intent."

Legal ramifications must be considered, but if you die at the hands of a criminal it won't matter you'll be dead. I am not talking about illegal (in the pure sense of harming another law abiding citizen) use of a weapon. If anyone would fault another for using a weapon for self-defense the problem is not with the use of a weapon, but with the laws, and attitude that protect criminals and deny victims their rights. This doesn't sound like the ideas of a civilized society to me.

Michael
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:11 AM   #191
Nick Simpson
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Re: Self-defense art?

I understand what your saying about throwing away any possible advantage. I just personally, as I have already stated, would not use a bokken/weapons bag in a sd situation unless it was absolutely desperate. I have plenty more options at my disposal. What I would consider, is perhaps throwing said weapons bag at the attackers to confuse them, possbily theyd catch it out of reflex, it might give me a split second to close the distance and get in to them.

As someone who has indeed felt the rammifications of sword meeting flesh, I know what you are saying. But Nick still has a valid point. The Police if someone grabs their truncheon/baton rather than struggle with it in a crowd just let go, it's to easy to be pulled down/bogged down if you struggle in this manner. Of course all aikido techniques come from the perspective of trying to retain your weapon/sword. If you want to try and nikkyo someone with your tsuka in an underpass then thats your decision. It just wouldnt be my ideal method of self defense.

At the end of the day, we have two different opinions. Thats brilliant. You guys might prefer to use your bokken/weapons bag, I probably wouldnt

Last edited by Nick Simpson : 02-12-2006 at 07:14 AM.

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Old 02-12-2006, 10:42 AM   #192
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

i believe this is a somewhat silly distinction... as David Valadez has espressed in some of his posts to this thread there is at issue here a question of 'spontaneous" reaction/application of technique... consider the situation under discussion... i wouldn't think of trying to do 'suburi' with a weapons bag, but would adopt a stance like "present arms" in military talk, with bag held diagonally across my front... attackers may be deterred just by the appearance of resistance... this posture gives ample possiblities for responses to any action potential attackers may make... it has 'two' (actually more) live ends to use... for arm wrist techniques as well as strikes...

" I just personally, as I have already stated, would not use a bokken/weapons bag in a sd situation unless it was absolutely desperate. I have plenty more options at my disposal. What I would consider, is perhaps throwing said weapons bag at the attackers to confuse them, possbily theyd catch it out of reflex, it might give me a split second to close the distance and get in to them"

So you give them your weapon... hoping it will confuse them... then want to take that "unlikely" moment of confusion to move forward where they can attack you!!? with the weapon you just gave them... BRILLIANT!!! come on you need to seriously rethink your strategy!!! a SD situation is desparate, but doing strategically unsound things only increases the chance that you will be hurt or killed... if you get stuck on the narrow forms that you practice in class without considering how to apply them in a real situation you will probably fail... I thought us Yanks taught that to the Redcoats 2 hundred years ago...LOL... at the end of the day there are more than two opinions... the correct one and everything else...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 10:53 AM   #193
Nick Simpson
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Re: Self-defense art?

*Yawn*. Edwin, these are two different opinions. Mine and yours. Neither is wrong, they are merely different...As for bringing up the war of independance? Lame and completely irrelevant.

Im off for the night again. Enjoy your afternoon of web related activities.

Best,

Nick.

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Old 02-12-2006, 10:54 AM   #194
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Re: Self-defense art?

Would someone please tell me how an opinion can be correct or incorect?

Q
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:06 AM   #195
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

opinions are subjective... ie personal... i personally believe the earth is flat... correctness (truth) is objective... ie not personal... no matter what my opinion the earth is actually spherical (more or less)... good question Jo... opinions may be either...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 11:10 AM   #196
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

*Yawn*. Edwin, these are two different opinions. Mine and yours. Neither is wrong, they are merely different...As for bringing up the war of independance? Lame and completely irrelevant.

it is true and this proves it the british have no sense of humor...LOL...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 11:16 AM   #197
Qatana
 
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Re: Self-defense art?

But Edwin you yourself said there are two opinions-the Correct one and Everything Else. So are you now contradicting yourself?

Q
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:20 AM   #198
Edwin Neal
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Re: Self-defense art?

i notice you only parroted the opinions defense and picked on my sense of humor, but did not address the main points of my post... evasion is good but one must eventually engage the enemy or be overwhelmed...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 11:30 AM   #199
Mark Freeman
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Re: Self-defense art?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
it is true and this proves it the british have no sense of humor...LOL...
Edwin is this an objective truth or an opinional thruth? Either way you are correct the british have absolutely no sense of humour, and to prove it we will no longer laugh when we are told that your elected leader is an intelligent, thoughtful, moral, and thoroughly lovely man! < at this point I would put a smiley, but it is NOT funny! >

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:34 AM   #200
Qatana
 
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Re: Self-defense art?

My question is about the rightness and wrongness of opinions. You are both saying there is a right and wrong opinion and also that opinions are entirely subjective. So which one is the correct definition?

Q
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