Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-15-2006, 03:25 PM   #1
aikidodragon
Dojo: North West Arkansas Aikido
Location: Arkansas
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 48
United_States
Offline
Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Shodokan Tomiki why do we have two names for what looks like the same art?
Here's how it all started;
I was invited to go train withthe university Aikido clube, and they train Tomiki. Well I started researching this style. I am trying to find out as mutch as possible about this style before meating these people. And one thing I have noticed is that this style of Aikido has two names.
Yes yes I know that a lot of people don't think that the Shodokan/Tomiki styles are not Aikido, Kill me later.
And why all the issues with calling it Aikido? Tomiki trained under O Sensei as well as with Jigoro Kano, who also trained with O Sensei.
So someone please please help me understand these questions.
Thank you for putting up with me.

Last edited by aikidodragon : 01-15-2006 at 03:27 PM.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 04:06 PM   #2
crbateman
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,502
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

I'll address a couple of your questions. Shodokan is the name of the style. Tomiki is the name of the originator of the style. The use of "Tomiki Aikido" is a euphemism to describe the style originated by Tomiki.

Also, Jigaro Kano did not study with O'Sensei, but was impressed by him. Kenji Tomiki was one of the high-ranking Kano students who was dispatched by him to study with O'Sensei, in order to bring a better sense of what he was doing back to judo.

Train well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 06:11 PM   #3
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Hi Sara;

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

Please read http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/name.html

The site is of course the best point of reference for Shodokan.

Several later students of Kano were dispatched to Ueshiba and Tomiki was encouraged to continue but as I understand it Tomiki found Ueshiba through friends.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 07:09 PM   #4
aikidodragon
Dojo: North West Arkansas Aikido
Location: Arkansas
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 48
United_States
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Thank you Peter I will check out the links you suggested. There is just so mutch to read, and it seems like not everyone can agree. O well thats what I get for using the internet. It is nice to talk to someone who trains Shodokan, your information and help is of grai value to me.
I am grateful for any information from anyone.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 07:59 PM   #5
crbateman
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,502
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Peter, thanks for correcting my mea culpa. I was thinking of Mochizuki Sensei, who was one of those sent to Ueshiba by Dr. Kano in 1930. This was 4 years after Tomiki began training with O'Sensei, and 20 years after he began with Kano. That was like a hundred years ago, and I don't remember so good no more...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 08:20 PM   #6
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Interestingly some others who should know also got it wrong - most noteable Chiba in an interview. Of course he may have got it from a previous error as he was not on the scene.

According to the Shodokan Honbu profile on Tomiki he only met Kano 2 years before meeting Ueshiba. He started Judo in school age 10 in 1910.

Shoot me - I like historical context.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/profile1.html

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 08:25 PM   #7
James Smithe
 
James Smithe's Avatar
Dojo: undisclosed location
Location: Texas
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 109
United_States
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Kenji Tomiki preferred the name Shodokan. He thought it was arrogant to name a style after himself. But people call it Tomiki anyway.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 08:50 PM   #8
aikidodragon
Dojo: North West Arkansas Aikido
Location: Arkansas
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 48
United_States
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Yes but why did the name Tomiki Aikido stick, I am a Judoka And we don't call it Kano Judo.
I wonder why that happened.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 07:30 AM   #9
crbateman
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,502
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Sara, pretty much all modern Judo is attributed to that of Dr. Kano, so "Kano Judo" goes without saying. But since all Aikido does not come from that of Kenji Tomiki, "Tomiki Aikido" is indeed a telling description, just not one that Tomiki himself would give it. That does not explain why Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is not called "Tohei Aikido" or why Yoshinkan Aikido is not called "Shioda Aikido", but perhaps because there is also a Shotokan style of Karate, the name "Tomiki Aikido" stuck, to avoid the confusion that might have been caused because of the similarity of names "Shodokan" and "Shotokan". I don't know for sure, it's just my guess. Anyway, the name is not as important as the training. I hope you do well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 09:09 AM   #10
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Sara Parson wrote:
Yes but why did the name Tomiki Aikido stick, I am a Judoka And we don't call it Kano Judo.
I wonder why that happened.
My understanding of it is this:

Its probably because Tomiki K began developing his ideas well before the "split" with the Aikikai. I guess people started to talk about "Tomiki Aikido" as a shorthand for "that stuff that Tomiki is doing", but the man himself didn't regard it as anything other than just plain "Aikido" so resisted giving it a name (and definitely disapproved of people using his own name that way).

It was only when the Shodokan dojo was founded that the style acquired a name - the name of its honbu dojo.

No doubt Peter will be along shortly to correct my shaky history.

Sean
x
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 05:34 PM   #11
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Hi Sean;

That's basically it. The name Shodokan has become associated with a particular curriculum and place so there was some reason for maintaining a broader description in the minds of some, particularly a few of Nariyama Shihan's sempai. In Japan that function was provided by the Japan Aikido Association which is now completely Shodokan.

I think one of the more interesting aspects of Tomiki's Aikido is the strongly developed curriculum and how it evolved. Several well respected non-Japanese Aikidoists learned from Tomiki in the 50s and early 60s and teach in that way. Shodokan Aikido developed continuously while Tomiki was alive and to an extent still does. I think this is one of the reasons the Tomiki designation still exists.

But again - what really matters is what happens on the mat.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 12:31 PM   #12
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 394
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

This issue with calling Shodokan Aikido tends to be on how it is applied. Shodokan has a competition aspect to how they practice. Tomiki Sensei had to do this so that he could teach at a college for the college didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property. This way the art now becomes a sport and Japanese colleges love to have sports clubs on campus. Osensei said that Aikido should not be a competition hence there are no tournaments for trophies or weight class champions. This is why some people get all rilled up when Shodokan is referred to as Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 01:50 PM   #13
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote:
Shodokan has a competition aspect to how they practice. Tomiki Sensei had to do this so that he could teach at a college for the college didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property.
I don't think this is quite the way it happened. Waseda University had other budo clubs, including aikido connected with the Ueshiba Aikikai. I think it was because in order for it to be a "for credit course" rather than a "club" they had to be able to measure and quantify the student's learning as in a "win-lose" contest measurement. I have never heard of the idea that Waseda officials didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property. University kendo and judo aren't passive, I can assure you.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 02:43 PM   #14
aikidodragon
Dojo: North West Arkansas Aikido
Location: Arkansas
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 48
United_States
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Judo the gentle way. Yah right.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 03:18 PM   #15
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,049
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Sara Parson wrote:
Judo the gentle way. Yah right.
Personally, I disagree with the translation of "ju" (as in "judo," "jujutsu") as "gentle." Rather, I use the translation of "pliable" myself.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 06:05 PM   #16
rorenshi
Dojo: Devonport
Location: Tasmania
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5
Australia
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

The term shodokan Tomiki is along exactly the same lines as Shotokan karate-do. Shodo is Japanese for(I think)calligraphy and the kan is yet another word fo style. Tomiki-san wanted his style to be like the flowing of a brush over paper,just as Ueshiba-shihan wanted his style to represent a willow tree bending rather than breaking in heavy snow. The name is just a sort of promotional thing, from the originators years. It was common place to give a new art its own "public name". Think of all the other multi-named martial arts...kodokan judo, aikikai aikido, shotokan karate-do, san shi kai karate...all these are just bits of advertisment or a summary of the styles principals.

Methinks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 06:32 PM   #17
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

My God lets all make up things that sound good.

Chuck is generally right about Waseda. Shodokan dogma was that Tomiki was toying with the idea before hand but I do think the imputus came from Waseda's requirement. Untill that time Tomiki was teaching Aikido to Judo guys on the side so it never became an issue. A non-competivie Aikikai club (remember Tomiki never stopped being a member of Aikikai) was started soon after.

The Sho of Shodokan is the same as the Sho of Showa, the name of the last emperor. It is also related to the name where his Honbu dojo was founded - the Showacho district of Osaka. Sho means enlightened, Do path, Kan place.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 07:28 PM   #18
crbateman
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,502
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Stop holding back, Peter... Tell us what you THINK...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 08:07 PM   #19
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Not to mention that the "sho" of Shodokan is actually "shou", i.e., an elongated "o" sound. The "sho" of "shodo", calligraphy (actually "shodou"), is not elongated.

昭道館 - しょうどうかん - Shoudoukan

書道 - しょどう - Shodou

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 08:08 PM   #20
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

The thing is the information is out there - if one takes a look.

According to the Shodokan Honbu web site the English translation of Shodokan is 'place for identifying the way'.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/jaa.html

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 11:03 PM   #21
Shiroi Usagi
 
Shiroi Usagi's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

hey, sorry if this is a bit unrelated, but how many different types of aikido are there?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2006, 12:00 AM   #22
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido scroll down to styles.

Not totally comprehensive but enough to give an idea.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 07:39 AM   #23
IlyasDexter
Dojo: Unity Aikido
Location: Hobart
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 19
Australia
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Off the point a little but Tomiki Sensei also developed the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jutsu Kata and given that you are a Judoka you should feel right at home with this system of Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 08:10 AM   #24
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Ilyas Dexter wrote:
Off the point a little but Tomiki Sensei also developed the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jutsu Kata and given that you are a Judoka you should feel right at home with this system of Aikido
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 09:13 AM   #25
IlyasDexter
Dojo: Unity Aikido
Location: Hobart
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 19
Australia
Offline
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...
Lets look at principle not technique and there is more in common than you think.
aigamae ate and shomen ate:share the some priciple as the first technique from Judo Itsutsu no kata and tai the first technique from koshiki no kata.
gyakugamae ate: kodaore 7th technique Judo koshiki no kata
gedan ate: uchi kudaki 8th technique koshiki no kata
ushiro ate: ryokuhi and shikoro dori 3rd and 11th techniques of koshiki no kata
There are many others hiki taoshi for example. Tomiki Sensei in his teachings on the modernisation of Ju Jutsu classified Ju jutsu technique into four catogories:
1.Atemi Waza
2.Kansetsu Waza
3.Nage Waza
4.Katamae Waza
In Judo we practice Nage waza and Katamae waza in Aikido we practice Atemi waza and Kansetsu waza. And he personally said to my sensei that there is about a 30% crossover between Judo and Aikido.And to quote Tomiki Sensei from his book Judo appendix Aikido "Aiki means making your spirit fit in with your opponent's. After all it means the samething as the principle of gentleness (Ju), for it is an explanation of the priciple from within."
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikikai Pioneers in Europe Demetrio Cereijo General 10 02-16-2007 05:12 AM
Tomiki / Shodokan Aikido in Birmingham Aiki x General 2 03-05-2006 10:11 AM
Aikikai: Style or organisation? Fred26 General 10 03-31-2005 09:18 AM
Aikikai or Shodokan Tom Hooper Techniques 13 03-15-2004 05:07 AM
Seminar/Event: Aikikai Malaysia 30th Anniversary Seminar AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 09-17-2001 01:14 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:45 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate