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Old 03-15-2006, 06:28 PM   #51
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Ki and Technique...

thanks for that excellent precise Erick, I for one, will certainly try to get hold of a copy. I particularly liked:
Quote:
The aspect of gracefulness and beauty inherent in our movements does help to control and channel our agression into paths that protect rather than injure. Ugly technique is by an large bad technique
regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:58 PM   #52
Thalib
 
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Dojo: 合気研究会
Location: Jakarta Selatan
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Posts: 504
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Re: Ki and Technique...

There was a topic on kiai, way back when...

Let me see if I could find it...

Ah yes...

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...26&postcount=6

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=32


Regards,

K'

Quote:
James Webb wrote:
I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:04 AM   #53
Erick Mead
 
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Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
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Re: Ki and Technique...

Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib wrote:
There was a topic on kiai, way back when...
Let me see if I could find it...
Ah yes...
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...26&postcount=6
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=32
Regards,
K'
Jakarta was lovely my last time there, about ten years ago. Imagine my surprise to walk into the Twenty-Third Annual Highland Games of Jakarta. God love the Scots! I staggered away some hours later a bit worse for wear, but better than the pints I had bested. Of course, I did not fare any better with the Brits and Ozzies during the Hash run in Surabaya either, but that's another story.

Kiai was best described to me as a sudden crystalization of mind/body (seika no itten) into a single working unit moving from hara. The point about breath in the links provided is well-taken. Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause.

Cordially,
Erick Mead
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Old 03-16-2006, 07:23 AM   #54
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Ki and Technique...

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Kiai was best described to me as a sudden crystalization of mind/body (seika no itten) into a single working unit moving from hara. The point about breath in the links provided is well-taken. Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause.
Unless your body, and particularly the dantien area, is trained in the correct way, the pressure addition of kiai won't do much good (in the way it's intended to do).

I'm reminded of a story where a historic Tai Chi figure did a demonstration by lying on the ground, putting some millet seeds into his navel, and then snapped them up into the air with a sudden exhale and snap of his stomach. This ability comes from breathing correctly (reverse breathing), storing and releasing power, etc., over a long period of time. However, there is a "tai chi teacher" I know that has his students put a penny on their stomach and see who can snap it highest.... misunderstanding what the original demonstration was about. So while this teacher has focused his mind on the idea of an object being snapped into the air (totally missing the extensive training of the rest of the body to get there), doing "kiai" noises without understanding the training and pressure, etc., considerations of the body is the same "miss the point". IMO.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-17-2006, 03:16 PM   #55
Michael Douglas
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Re: Ki and Technique...

Erick Mead wrote : "Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause."

I completely agree.
I find that during training, if all seems to come together
just right, you are 'in the zone', you move faster and
understand what is happening while your opponent seems
slow and confused. At times like these I find myself making
some sound, i.e. Kiai, of sorts.
Now, maybe my making a sound is a tacky subconscious
acting-out of filmic special effects, maybe it is a real effect
of doing excellent stuff.
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Old 03-19-2006, 04:33 PM   #56
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Ki and Technique...

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
Now, maybe my making a sound is a tacky subconscious acting-out of filmic special effects, maybe it is a real effect of doing excellent stuff.
Maybe if you've only been practicing for a while, it would be I think the films would be the influence.
maybey if you've been practicing for a long time it would be excellent stuff.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:16 PM   #57
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ki and Technique...

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Maybe if you've been practicing for a long time it would be excellent stuff.
For those who have not done it routinely, an excellent kiai practice is the fundatori/furatama exercise. The exercise is closely related to kotodama practice, and also has relation to sword-work and the "Ey!" "Yah!" "Toh!" of movement. I have been in number of aikikai dojos that do not do it routinely, so it may be unfamiliar to some.

It looks a little silly, a bunch of people shifting forward and back in time with one another and thrusting their arms forward ("EY !") and back ("SA !") like rowing a boat. But it really does work. The more people doing it, the less self-conscious you are, and the more you can work on blending focus, which is the heart of kiai, and of aiki.

If you have ever been to Japan and seen the kinds of, shall we say, - idiosyncratic - mass exercises that have been done in the corporate world, fundatori/furatama is fairly nondescript. For an howling example of the uncritical acceptance of this kind of thing in Japan: see this clip recently sent by a buddy of mine, which is a recruiting commercial (swear to God) for the JMSDF (Japan's not-a-Navy)
http://www.jda.go.jp/JMSDF/info/event/cm_p/16cm.html

Cordially,
Erick Mead
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:28 AM   #58
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Ki and Technique...

The clip you provide Erick looks like it would play well in certain clubs in San fransisco!

We do not train with kiai as a systematic part of our aikido, so what you speak of is unfamiliar to me. What I do find though is that if I am thrown powerfully with ki, then a kiai type sound comes out of me sponaniously, if I am thrown without, no sound comes out. I don't know what the explanation to this is, it's just the way it happens.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:02 PM   #59
Michael Douglas
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Re: Ki and Technique...

Hey Mark, that happened to my mate on Sunday.
I threw him powerfully, and a spontaneous "JESUS!" came out of him.
(His words, not mine)
It was cool.
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