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Old 01-26-2006, 05:38 PM   #26
Derek Gaudet
 
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
Anyone who demonstrates their art can put up a fight works has my respect. Also Kyoushin is better than Shotokan.
And here in lies an example of opinion, and how it creates the atmosphere where arts can't get along. See even in a thread about "Unifying arts" there is separation. I think much that has been said sums it up. To see value in others is what's important. It takes a lifetime if not longer to comprehend an "art", "budo", "the way", whatever, to understand all of them would be a great accomplishment. You do not have to make a unification, only keep an open mind. As Seiser said, a large menu is a good one.

Kind Regards,
Derek Gaudet
Goshin Aikido
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Old 01-26-2006, 05:40 PM   #27
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
Where did take my dough come from then?
LOL James!

The former Tae Kwon Do, now more aptly in most parts of the world known as "take my dough" was founded in Korea, but I'm sure you knew that already.

I actually had a wonderful start to my MA history in TKD. It was the only art I studied for many years but that was a long time ago. It seems after it became an Olympic "sport" most, if not all, schools have gone to teaching it as a "score a point" style sport now instead of a martial art.
*note* The last statement is the opinion of the author only.

When I trained it was taught very traditional and our sparring was heavy to full contact in the dojo, not this tap for a point stuff they do now and I loved it.

All that said though, for the people that train in Tae Kwon Do, learn the kata, and progess up through the ranks as proficent martial artists, I still respect them and their commitment to their chosen art.

Mike
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:05 PM   #28
neb1979
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Re: Is there a way to unite all Martial arts

Hey Justin,

I don't think we should unite all Martial Arts but I think we should try and help unite the people of the Martial Arts. That being said I would have to say in my experience with in the Arts today this is already happening on a large scale. There is only a minority that don't appreciate and accept different Arts. These people that won't or can't accept the difference's with in the Arts in my opinion, aren't really worth getting yourself worked up over.

Just my opinion

Learn to Suffer, Know your Place and Nothing lasts Forever
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:06 AM   #29
justinmaceachern
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

question for james. do you even study martail arts, and if so. Why
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:13 AM   #30
justinmaceachern
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Thank you Ben. Mike whenb you were talking about taekwando being a olympic sport, you have to remember that, that is only with WTF (world taekwando federation). I belong to a harder style that is not aloud in the olympics, wich is ITF (International Taekwando Federation). Confusing but still a difference. I am not even aloud to take part in any wtf style events. Plus i heard that some of the wtf schools have taking out kata's whats up with that.
Thanks for your guy's time and have a good day.
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:15 AM   #31
justinmaceachern
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

I see you on here sempei gaudet
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:17 AM   #32
Derek Gaudet
 
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Well, it got to a point where I thought I would contribute my 2 cents...

Kind Regards,
Derek Gaudet
Goshin Aikido
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Old 01-27-2006, 09:43 AM   #33
Mike Haftel
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

"Is there a way to unite all martial arts?"

Yes and no.

All martial arts are inherently the same. So, in a sense you can not unite what is already united.

But it also depends on what you mean by "unite." Do you mean to ask if it is possible to get all different martial arts styles and arts and somehow have everyone sit down at a big table and get along and agree on everything? Then no. Not gonna happen.

I say that all martial arts are the same because they all use the same exact principles and fundamental foundations of movement, physiokinetics, etc.
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Old 01-27-2006, 02:25 PM   #34
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
Justin MacEachern wrote:
Thank you Ben. Mike whenb you were talking about taekwando being a olympic sport, you have to remember that, that is only with WTF (world taekwando federation). I belong to a harder style that is not aloud in the olympics, wich is ITF (International Taekwando Federation). Confusing but still a difference. I am not even aloud to take part in any wtf style events. Plus i heard that some of the wtf schools have taking out kata's whats up with that.
Thanks for your guy's time and have a good day.
Justin,
I also studied USTF/ITF Tae Kwon Do back in the 80's. It was wonderful, and I loved every minute of it. In the last few years though even seeking out USTF/ITF schools (in my area at least) they are still teaching the kata but have gone to either no contact / very light contact sparring when they spar.

It isn't like it used to be, or at least I can't find it around here.

Mike
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Old 01-27-2006, 03:09 PM   #35
James Smithe
 
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
question for james. do you even study martail arts, and if so. Why
Yes of course I study Martial arts. Why? That's a reason I like to keep to myself.
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Old 01-27-2006, 04:26 PM   #36
James Kelly
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote:
All martial arts are inherently the same. So, in a sense you can not unite what is already united.
I've gotta disagree here. I know it's probably a futile argument because on one hand everything is inherently the same and on the other everything is unique and the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but for me, the commonly held belief that all martial arts are just different paths to the same end is false.

Leaving aside the many reasons an individual may practice a specific art, the ends, the entire reason for the existence of various martial arts, are not uniform:
- In some arts the aim is explicitly to learn the most effective way to harm (or kill) your opponent.
- Some arts are practiced for self improvement/meditation alone and the martial aspects are secondary, or even frowned upon (I'm thinking of the Shaolin Gong Fu I took).
- Others, Capoeira for example, grew as an expression of black freedom against an oppressive colonial regime and are still fundamentally about expression.
- Some are sports where the goal is to learn how to score points within a specific set of rules.
- And then there's Aikido, the aim of which is the unification of the practitioner's individual ki with the ki of the universe (or what have you... ).

And the list goes on.

My long winded point here is that to call these wildly diverse practices already united is stretching it. The only definition that would fit all the above would also include yoga and tennis (go Baghdatis) so the only thing that unites them is the fact that they consider themselves martial arts... a long way from inherently the same.

My 0.0632 Zlotych
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Old 01-27-2006, 07:55 PM   #37
ESimmons
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

A unification of all martial arts would either be (a) all martial arts in their entirety or (b) a new martial art consisting of fragments of all previous martial arts.

In the case of the former, each individual martial art would retain its distinctive theory and methods, and no unification in any pragmatic sense has actually occurred. In the case of the latter, yet another martial art with its own distinctive theory and methods has been created.

Quote:
G.K. Chesterton wrote:
Anarchism adjures us to be bold creative artists, and care for no laws or limits. But it is impossible to be an artist and not care for laws or limits. Art is limitation; the essence of every picture is the frame. If you draw a giraffe, you must draw him with a long neck. If, in your bold creative way, you hold yourself free to draw a giraffe with a short neck, you will really find that you are not free to draw a giraffe.

Last edited by ESimmons : 01-27-2006 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 01-28-2006, 04:31 PM   #38
Mike Haftel
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:
I've gotta disagree here. I know it's probably a futile argument because on one hand everything is inherently the same and on the other everything is unique and the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but for me, the commonly held belief that all martial arts are just different paths to the same end is false.

Leaving aside the many reasons an individual may practice a specific art, the ends, the entire reason for the existence of various martial arts, are not uniform:
- In some arts the aim is explicitly to learn the most effective way to harm (or kill) your opponent.
- Some arts are practiced for self improvement/meditation alone and the martial aspects are secondary, or even frowned upon (I'm thinking of the Shaolin Gong Fu I took).
- Others, Capoeira for example, grew as an expression of black freedom against an oppressive colonial regime and are still fundamentally about expression.
- Some are sports where the goal is to learn how to score points within a specific set of rules.
- And then there's Aikido, the aim of which is the unification of the practitioner's individual ki with the ki of the universe (or what have you... ).

And the list goes on.

My long winded point here is that to call these wildly diverse practices already united is stretching it. The only definition that would fit all the above would also include yoga and tennis (go Baghdatis) so the only thing that unites them is the fact that they consider themselves martial arts... a long way from inherently the same.

My 0.0632 Zlotych
That's not what I was intending to imply by my previous statement. When I said that all martial arts are inherently the same I was not talking about every arts specific goals or intentions about technique or etiquitte, or philosophies, or ethical guidlines, or the sport/martial/fighting/art aspect. I was speaking from a more physiological mindset.

A nikyo is a nikyo. Of course everyone does it differently and every art or style does it differently (some arts don't even have nikyo or insert technique here) but nikyo works because of something. And that 'something' is present in every art; this is because every martial art or fighting art or sport or whathaveyou works on the same principles. Do not confuse this with the cliche about the path up a mountain.
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Old 01-28-2006, 09:38 PM   #39
James Kelly
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Sorry, didn't mean to put the path up the mountain cliché in your mouth, but I have to ask, what are the principles that are common to all martial arts? As far is I understand it, the whole big deal about aikido is that O Sensei changed the principles of traditional bujutsu.
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Old 01-28-2006, 11:16 PM   #40
Mike Haftel
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:
Sorry, didn't mean to put the path up the mountain cliché in your mouth, but I have to ask, what are the principles that are common to all martial arts? As far is I understand it, the whole big deal about aikido is that O Sensei changed the principles of traditional bujutsu.
A principle is something that is true in every case and instance, otherwise it isn't a principle. Some principles that I can list, among many others, would be triangulation (the two points on the ground where another leg would be if we had them..think of a tripod or a table), down, up, power paradox (power, not strength, comes from proper body alignment, structure, and relaxation rather than from muscle strength and tension), secondary pressure, indirect pressure, how gravity works, void (uke can not fight where uke is not), I can go on and on here.

The point is that there are common threads which link all martial arts together and make the infinite amount of techniques work. If you can learn and study the comparatively small number of principles and physiokinetics instead of techniques then you have a much better foundation to build upon and no matter what art you study, you are pretty much doing the same thing (I say pretty much because obviously every art goes about applying these principles in different ways).

Catch my drift?

I don't think Ueshiba went up on a mountain and reinvented the wheel, so to speak. He just put a different spin on what was already there. He said it himself. He didn't invent Aikido or even discover it. He simply utilized what was already there and pointed it out to other people. It didn't hurt that he was quite good at it though.

So, in that sense, every martial art is already united.
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Old 01-29-2006, 03:59 AM   #41
James Kelly
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote:
A principle is something that is true in every case and instance, otherwise it isn't a principle.

Catch my drift?
Sure I catch your drift. But these principals are by no means specific to martial arts. They apply to yoga, tennis, football (American and European), dance, ..., anything that involves more than one person in a physical, dynamic situation... so to say that all martial arts are united, why leave it there? All physical activities are united by that definition. Which of course is true, but too broad I think.
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Old 01-29-2006, 02:44 PM   #42
Mike Haftel
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:
Sure I catch your drift. But these principals are by no means specific to martial arts. They apply to yoga, tennis, football (American and European), dance, ..., anything that involves more than one person in a physical, dynamic situation... so to say that all martial arts are united, why leave it there? All physical activities are united by that definition. Which of course is true, but too broad I think.
Exactly.
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Old 01-30-2006, 02:39 AM   #43
James Kelly
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

So tennis is a martial art...?
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Old 01-30-2006, 03:45 AM   #44
Edwin Neal
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Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

yeah what a bunch of knuckleheads... how would we ever unify people who can't even agree on what is a martial art? (just messing with ya!)
but seriously... I have proposed the same thing with "just Aikido" and recieved much of the same misunderstanding
unity/unifying... doesn't necessarily entail uniformity or conformity...it does not mean that you must combine all the teaching of individual styles, or learn all the techniques of every style... it does not mean that everyone must have or share the same reason(s) for training

the mountain and the valley are united under the vault of the heavens and supported by the firmament of the earth...

a restaurant with a large menu is very good, but an ENORMOUS BUFFET is AWESOME...

setting aside for a brief moment the idea of ALL MA... i would like to re explore the idea of a unified aikido... don't fall into the traps of being limited by the word Unify or Unite... perhaps we should think of it as a reunion of a family parted by time and distance coming together in community to reaffirm our love and respect for all... in spite of and because of the variety and richness of our characters...

or are we aiki-ostriches that bury our heads and see nothing?

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-30-2006, 06:09 AM   #45
Peter Seth
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Smile Re: Is there a way to unite all martail arts

I don't thing it is possible to unite all martial arts. (Though I think that it is a reality that they are all just translations/interpretations of the same thing - could try to explain but don't have time at the moment).
What can be done, is to unite different Arts towards a single goal and in doing so improve the awareness of each art/group as to the similarities all arts share. Also to the potential of sharing knowledge and expertise - 'only a fool does not want to learn more'.

Six years ago I organised a Martial arts festival to raise funds for Cancer Research UK. The first year I contacted 10 different arts who freely gave up their time and expertise to take part in a day long demonstration of their arts in front of an audience of about 300 - we raised around £1000.
Last year ( the 5th) 14 different arts/ groups took part raising £2600 This year will be the sixth annual festival, planned for May, and I have Marts groups already contacting me wanting to take part -
A single goal!!
But as an added bonus there has been created a 'network' of arts who as martial artists and also friends - are only too willing to get involved in basically any way they can to support each other. Whether it be raising funds for charities, doing demo's/seminars for each other giving advice, sharing info, contacts etc, etc.

I have myself delivered Aikido seminars for Martial Arts 'friends' who study Kung fu and Karate - I learned a lot just by being there with 'other arts'.

(In the near future I have arranged for a senior Kenjutsu sensei to deliver a seminar for my Aikido class - I know myself and my students will gain a tremendous amount from this seminar).
And I am hoping to invite a very senior Karate instructor along to share his art with us in the near future.

Mutual respect, friendship, co-operation and an open, mature outlook on fellow M Arts.

Nearly forgot - the interest in the 'Martial arts' in and around the city where I live also increased.

Cheers Peter.
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