Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2006, 07:41 AM   #1
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Budo, Bushido

Ok, I am quiet new here and have been dabbling in posts.
From what I see there are people here who, wait I will Form categories.
1.People who respect the "way" as a budo perspective and adore its deep meanings.
2.People who respect the bushido aspect.
3.Cross trainers who respect both aspects. And wish to deepen their martial instincts and progress not only as warriors but as people.
4.People that wish to be harder and faster and better than the next.
5.And the people that love flowery language,zen riddles and also pulling apart posts to construct a political debate for the aikido world to feast on.
That last category does never apply to voices of expeirence. And George I love your stuff, I love Saotome, and respect. When it is due. I especially love the dynamics of aikido artisticly displayed "On canvas" by Saotome, better than cheap words.
Now Being said, and respect for all categories, which category do you fall under? There is a category that is exclusive of course just to me the category being "I just LOVE aikido" Now I do expect some bites but lets get real! Were are we here, I have seen disrespect posted toward Japanese culture, people not understanding that battles over land and other assets do not exsist in modern day Japan. Not True. Although less brutal.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 07:51 AM   #2
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Not only which, but why? And lets be real, everyone has their own reasons and insentives lets display them here!

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 07:57 AM   #3
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Knock, Knock...

Who's there?

Ding Dong...

Ding Dong who?

.

..

...

....

exactly.



.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 12:22 PM   #4
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

I fall under the "Is f'ing sick of categorization" category.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 12:45 PM   #5
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
Ok, I am quiet new here and have been dabbling in posts.
From what I see there are people here who, wait I will Form categories.
1.People who respect the "way" as a budo perspective and adore its deep meanings.
2.People who respect the bushido aspect.
3.Cross trainers who respect both aspects. And wish to deepen their martial instincts and progress not only as warriors but as people.
4.People that wish to be harder and faster and better than the next.
5.And the people that love flowery language,zen riddles and also pulling apart posts to construct a political debate for the aikido world to feast on.
That last category does never apply to voices of expeirence. And George I love your stuff, I love Saotome, and respect. When it is due. I especially love the dynamics of aikido artisticly displayed "On canvas" by Saotome, better than cheap words.
Now Being said, and respect for all categories, which category do you fall under? There is a category that is exclusive of course just to me the category being "I just LOVE aikido" Now I do expect some bites but lets get real! Were are we here, I have seen disrespect posted toward Japanese culture, people not understanding that battles over land and other assets do not exsist in modern day Japan. Not True. Although less brutal.
Hi.

Is English your first language?

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 06:46 PM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,641
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Knock, Knock...

Who's there?

Ding Dong...

Ding Dong who?

.

..

...

....

exactly.



.
Shaun,
You crack me up, I must say...
Happy New Year!
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 09:49 PM   #7
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 11:14 PM   #8
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,641
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!
Mathew,
Ok, so people were a bit harsh... I certainly apologize for any offense I gave. I do have to say that after reading your post a few times, I still wasn't clear about what you were saying in various parts... I think that's the source of Don's question about whether English is your first language...

People on this forum are generally fairly polite, especially when compared to other places one might hang on the internet, but you have to think clearly about what you want to say or ask because there are quite a few folks who have been around for a number of years and once in a while are less patient than we all ought to be. I wouldn't take it too seriously, though. But if you leave yourself open for some teasing, you'll probably get it... that would be true anyplace I think.Anyway, Aikido is a martial art and it's best not to have too thin a skin, so to speak.

I'd be happy to contribute my own answer to your question if I understood it better. Feel free to explain if you want...
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 06:39 AM   #9
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!
Ukemi is part of aikido, too. FWIW.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 09:28 AM   #10
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:

2.People who respect the bushido aspect.
Like most people, I didn't get your idea.

But I don't give a rat about "bushido" after seeing the film about Ni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

Take a look at the pictures, and tell me what is "budo".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3ASlayers.jpg

(WARNING, disturbing picture. Not for minors and faint of heart)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3AKillednanjing.jpg

I train Aikido because I can't find any other interesting activities in my area..
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 12:43 PM   #11
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Like most people, I didn't get your idea.

But I don't give a rat about "bushido" after seeing the film about Ni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

Take a look at the pictures, and tell me what is "budo".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3ASlayers.jpg

(WARNING, disturbing picture. Not for minors and faint of heart)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3AKillednanjing.jpg

I train Aikido because I can't find any other interesting activities in my area..
Not that Hagakure isn't full of crap, but blaming bushido for Nanjing is like blaming democracy for My Lai.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 01:04 PM   #12
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
Not that Hagakure isn't full of crap, but blaming bushido for Nanjing is like blaming democracy for My Lai.
No. Ididn't blame "bushido" for Rape of Nanjing.

Is that wrong to blame "nazism" for holocaust?

The fact was that "bushido" was promoted in the Japanese army in the WWII. The killing was done by those Japanese. You could argue the wrong type of "bushido" was misinterpreted in that period in Japan.

However, my point was I believed O'Sensei was more of a Japanese version of Buddhasm than bushidosm.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 01:26 PM   #13
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Roosvelt, Nazism did not cause the holocaust, people did. Ideas are just ideas, they have benefits and drawbacks. It is a cop-out for someone to blame his actions on some philosophy, be it political, societal, or religious.
In addition you are dead wrong about Osensei's views on bushido. Osensei was a close personal friend of the very people who used bushido to influence young Japanese people to join the military during WWII. Osensei was at least associated with multiple members of a Japanese secret society whose goal was to use bushido to re-glorify the samurai families by creating a class-oriented military hierarchy as the first step to returing to a pre-meiji social structure.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 01:49 PM   #14
early rub up
Dojo: tai shin do ryu
Location: Birmingham England
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10
England
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!
when it comes to a battle of wits i refuse to fight with an unarmed man
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 01:52 PM   #15
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
Roosvelt, Nazism did not cause the holocaust, people did. Ideas are just ideas, they have benefits and drawbacks. It is a cop-out for someone to blame his actions on some philosophy, be it political, societal, or religious.
I know that. So there is no difference if you send your kids to a Christan church, a KKK campus, a communist party, a buddha temple, a islam fighter cell, or a strip join every sunday morning? Ideas just ideas, right?

There is good idea and bad idea and evil idea. Good ideas don't generate good deed always. But evil ideas for sure generate less good deeds.

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
In addition you are dead wrong about Osensei's views on bushido. Osensei was a close personal friend of the very people who used bushido to influence young Japanese people to join the military during WWII. Osensei was at least associated with multiple members of a Japanese secret society whose goal was to use bushido to re-glorify the samurai families by creating a class-oriented military hierarchy as the first step to returing to a pre-meiji social structure.
O'Sensei was a soider during Japanese invasion of China. I'm not surprised about his political views during that time. Did he still hold this meiji idea in his late life? Did that happen before his "enlightenment" or after?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 02:25 PM   #16
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

That is a good point, I just wanted to mention that such things are a part of our record of his life. Of course you would not want to send you child to a Klan meeting. Nevertheless you would not necessarily expect your child to turn out bad if they studied Nazism in school. There is an important difference between learning about ideas and being told that ideas are the "Truth" about the world. The problem lies not in the existence of the idea, but in the character of its dissemination and the character of those chosen to receive the idea. An example is the new Pope, who despite being a member of the Hitler Youth, has made his life a passionate attempt at reconciliation, and even though I do not agree with his conservative leanings, I think he has done a good job of proving that humans choose to be what they are, they are not merely the playthings of the various memes with which they are infected.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 03:49 PM   #17
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
That is a good point, I just wanted to mention that such things are a part of our record of his life. Of course you would not want to send you child to a Klan meeting. Nevertheless you would not necessarily expect your child to turn out bad if they studied Nazism in school. There is an important difference between learning about ideas and being told that ideas are the "Truth" about the world. The problem lies not in the existence of the idea, but in the character of its dissemination and the character of those chosen to receive the idea. An example is the new Pope, who despite being a member of the Hitler Youth, has made his life a passionate attempt at reconciliation, and even though I do not agree with his conservative leanings, I think he has done a good job of proving that humans choose to be what they are, they are not merely the playthings of the various memes with which they are infected.

As much as I believe I'm a independent thinker, unless I have version directly from "God", I'm bound to learn "ideas" from others.

Suppose the Germany defeated U.S. and the new Pope remained under Nazi party, do you still think somehow he'd denounce Nizism and become devoted catholic. Suppose O'sensei didn't get the omoto teaching, do you still think he'd hold the meiin ideas until his death?

men are product of circumstances. Only a few true saints and very crazies can stand alone.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 04:14 PM   #18
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Wow. A great counterexample to my arguments is the interview on Aikido Journal with Masando Sasaki. He is the Ann Coulter of Aikido. My personal favorite part of the interview is when he comments about how the brain waves of "baser people" and the brain waves of brave ubermensch Aikidoka are different. Maybe this can be a part of the proud Aikido tradition I am hoping to pass on to my children.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2006, 08:07 AM   #19
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
No. Ididn't blame "bushido" for Rape of Nanjing.
Then why bring it up?

Quote:
Is that wrong to blame "nazism" for holocaust?

The fact was that "bushido" was promoted in the Japanese army in the WWII. The killing was done by those Japanese. You could argue the wrong type of "bushido" was misinterpreted in that period in Japan.
I would argue nothing of the sort. I would argue that the causes of Nanjing were the exact same as the causes of My Lai, the Holocaust, Dresden, and Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Dehumanization and deindividuation. Any time there is armed conflict, the enemy is dehumanized. WWII propoganda on both sides are easy examples of this, as well as the usual tactics of referring to the enemy by an all-encompassing dimunitive, rumors of atrocities by the other side, etc.

Deindividuation is, put simply, mob mentality. Highly encouraged in most militaries, where adherence to orders is held to be paramount, and the linked chain of command can lead to all sorts passing off of final responsibilities. But also often found in non-war situations, too. Looting in New Orleans, for example, or the Los Angeles riots. When one doesn't feel that one will be held responsible for his actions, one can commit all sorts of violence.

People like to blame ideologies and philosophies for atrocities because we don't want to believe that we all have the capacity for such great evil against our fellow man. But Stanley Milgram put a rest to that delusion decades ago. Bushido, Socialism (in the case of Nazism), Democracy, Communism, Chivalry, Christianity, Islam, these are but the once idealistic, alturistic concepts that have been at one time or another co-opted as rationalizations by opportunists to have someone else do the dirty work.

Quote:
However, my point was I believed O'Sensei was more of a Japanese version of Buddhasm than bushidosm.
That is first a false dichotomy. One can be Buddhist and be an adherent of bushido (Miyamoto Musashi prayed to Kannon the day he started writing the Book of Five Rings), or Shintoist, or even Christian (there were a number of Christian samurai before the Tokugawa shogunate cracked down on foreign influence).

As for Ueshiba, he believed in Omoto-kyo, which is an ecclesiastic off-shoot of Shinto (which was just subverted by the powers that were in fascist Japan just as bushido was). And while he didn't talk much about bushido, he certainly made a great deal of budo, calling aikido "budo", even "the true budo" until his dying day.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2006, 06:32 PM   #20
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,641
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I know that. So there is no difference if you send your kids to a Christan church, a KKK campus, a communist party, a buddha temple, a islam fighter cell, or a strip join every sunday morning? Ideas just ideas, right?

There is good idea and bad idea and evil idea. Good ideas don't generate good deed always. But evil ideas for sure generate less good deeds.



O'Sensei was a soider during Japanese invasion of China. I'm not surprised about his political views during that time. Did he still hold this meiji idea in his late life? Did that happen before his "enlightenment" or after?
O-Sensei was a "soldier" in the Russo Japanese War. He did visit Manchuria which was a Japanese puppet state but wasn't officially connected with that effort. He did accompany Deguchi to the mainland, hoping to assist him in his mission to set up a spiritual kingdom there. Whereas the goals of this enterprise were clearly Utopian, in typical japanese fashion, no one asked the locals if they were enthused about the idea of said Utopia being set up in what had been their country...

It is my belief that it was the Japanese defeat in WWII that changed his thinking although there are indicators that he didn't agree with the path the Right wing militarists from earlier on. It is absolutely true that he counted a large number of extreme right leaders as friends. Also typical Japanese fashion, when there was dis-agreement he absented himself in Iwama rather than have a direct conflict and falling out with these people.

The belief in the unique character of the Japanese people and the sense of mission it gave many of them is an idea that is found in many cultures. If you look at the Center for the New American Century you can find precisely this mindset at work in our onw context.

In O-Sensei's case I believe that his take on this was always more benevolent than what many of the militarists took. I think he saw the Kannagara no Michi giving the Yamaato Daishi a unique character which made the Japanese special. I don't think that meant he saw the Japanese as superior and therefore it was ok to kill or enslave the peoples of the other countries in Asia... But there is no doubt he was friends with folks who took the idea of their superiority to that extreme.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2006, 07:49 PM   #21
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
O-Sensei....It is my belief that it was the Japanese defeat in WWII that changed his thinking although there are indicators that he didn't agree with the path the Right wing militarists from earlier on.
Tough call. I'd like to think so. There's evidence for it, if vague (reservations in parantheses):

* He wrote of "monofu no michi, an old term for warriors code, instead of "bushido", a concept tainted by militarist indoctrination and exploitation of romatic values;

* He did absent himself (but in 1942, kind of late, no?)

* His guru, Deguchi, wrote excoriating things about the rightists in Japan (but out of jealousy of their power; he was an enthusiastic proponent of the right when it served his ambitions);

* (Osensei's prose in the 30's uses many catch phrases of the militarists.)

* He wrote of "harmony" (but Jpn the political idiom at the time in general, and Osensei's mystical language in particular, was procrustean--one size fits all. As historian John Dower noted, what the Jpn said about their fascist intentions during the war could be used without modification during their conversion to the newfound religion of "demakurashi". Harmony meant, without blush, thought police bursting into the home of dissident academics in the middle of the night and beating them to death with staves. DERU KUGI WA UTARERU.)

* (Deguchi offered his services as bodyguard to Colonel Hashimoto, a war criminal executed by GHQ.)

Quote:
It is absolutely true that he counted a large number of extreme right leaders as friends. Also typical Japanese fashion, when there was dis-agreement he absented himself in Iwama rather than have a direct conflict and falling out with these people.
He also absented himself from his guru's side during the Second Omoto Incident and retired to Iwama during the Occupation leaving his young son to nurture aikido right under the noses of GHQ.

We default to "discretion" or "disagreement" in consideration of Osensei's accomplishments, but a disinterested party (and in the grand scheme of things, aikido isn't really important enough to have disinterested parties) might be more inclined to think in terms of fear.

Quote:
In O-Sensei's case I believe that his take on this was always more benevolent than what many of the militarists took. I think he saw the Kannagara no Michi giving the Yamaato Daishi a unique character which made the Japanese special. I don't think that meant he saw the Japanese as superior and therefore it was ok to kill or enslave the peoples of the other countries in Asia... But there is no doubt he was friends with folks who took the idea of their superiority to that extreme.
I want to believe this, but the conflicting evidence leaves me on the fence.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2006, 09:46 PM   #22
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Tough call. I'd like to think so. There's evidence for it, if vague (reservations in parantheses):

* He wrote of "monofu no michi, an old term for warriors code, instead of "bushido", a concept tainted by militarist indoctrination and exploitation of romatic values;
Indeed. Bushido = 武士道. "Mononofu no michi" = 武士の道. The first is the Chinese reading (Mandaring "wu shi dao", Cantonese "mou si dou"), the latter is "yamato kotoba", purely Japanese words.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2006, 10:07 PM   #23
Mat Hill
Dojo: Kaminari Shooto Dojo
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 48
England
Offline
Revisionists.

Good post Josh. Especially the 'Then why bring it up' part! There are times and places for this discussion like any other... but since the thread starter was wiffling nonsense arbitrary categories and saw his arse about the replies, following up by completely failing to harmonize with anything and throwing his toys out of the pram... let's go for it!

I have to say though, that although in general I agree with your post, Milgrams reductionism is also a form of revisionism. He says that we invent these ideaologies to cover our base instincts, but he doesn't acknowledge the very real harm these ideologies cause in movements especially on emotionally stimulated minds.

I think that's what Roosevelt is on about, and I agree with that part of his assessment. It's a nice intellectual conceit to say idealogy is biding dark urges but is not practical or useful in combatting those ideologies. But... Roosevelt, why are you here? You could answer any question on aikiweb by saying simply 'I don't give a rat's ass after seeing these pictures...' and linking them and that doesn't help either.

Of course we get emotional when seeing horrors like that, which leads us to make knee-jerk blanket observayions like bushido is to blame for Nanking. Yes of course we can argue that prewar nationalists' bushido was a wrong interpretation: but that's wrong... it was just another interpretation of many ways of thinking: no ideology is fixed.

And to say this
Quote:
The fact was that "bushido" was promoted in the Japanese army in the WWII. The killing was done by those Japanese.
is further revisionism belying the banality of the killing for most of the people there.
--------------------------------------------------

George Ledyard, Don Modesto, excellent posts.

Buut, he was using the lexicon commonly used by people in his time: did he have a chance/will to redefine these terms at this point to completely avoid any misinterpretation by future historians and scholars? No, of course not. Not till later, when he'd made a name for himself and had time and detachment to redefine a lot of the language he was using, when he denounced such ideologies in '42... and that's precisely what he did.

And the fear he felt leading to his absentism to Iwama, if it was, is not necessarily contradicting any opposition to those policies. It may not have been the right thing to do, and the courage to somehow fight against perceived injustice would be preferable especially in a leader/founder of a martial arts movement, but he was only human.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 07:20 AM   #24
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Ok I said I wouldnt be back, this is what inspired me,
http://www.aikido-world.com/reflections/reflections.htm
I also like the ukemi comment from Josh. I see people are starting to be real, Ukemi comment to me is being teased and I like it, it funny for me . Being teased and having your teeth extracted two different things. I like the link I provided it is comforting.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 07:38 AM   #25
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Budo, Bushido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Mathew,
Ok, so people were a bit harsh... I certainly apologize for any offense I gave. I do have to say that after reading your post a few times, I still wasn't clear about what you were saying in various parts... I think that's the source of Don's question about whether English is your first language...

People on this forum are generally fairly polite, especially when compared to other places one might hang on the internet, but you have to think clearly about what you want to say or ask because there are quite a few folks who have been around for a number of years and once in a while are less patient than we all ought to be. I wouldn't take it too seriously, though. But if you leave yourself open for some teasing, you'll probably get it... that would be true anyplace I think.Anyway, Aikido is a martial art and it's best not to have too thin a skin, so to speak.

I'd be happy to contribute my own answer to your question if I understood it better. Feel free to explain if you want...
- George
Diplomacy thats why I like you!

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sport is the new Budo Aiki Liu General 95 02-19-2007 07:33 AM
Martial artist / Aikidoka Ghost Fox General 35 08-02-2006 11:42 PM
The Living Way: Thomas Merton and Budo senshincenter Spiritual 0 03-01-2005 01:54 PM
2004 Budo Tai Sai August 15th Oniyama Seminars 0 06-18-2004 01:58 PM
budo vs. bushido Jesse Lee Language 23 08-07-2003 08:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:34 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate