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Old 06-28-2001, 11:32 AM   #1
ian
 
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Shiho-nage

After many years of practise I notice that I do shiho-nage differently to many other people in aikido.

Typical shiho-nage (after the turn) involves cutting down the wrist, whilst holding uke's wrist (covering the uke's hand, both below the joint) with both hands. However, I was taught to do itby covering one hand over uke's hand (holding the wrist around and below the joint), whilst the other hand is actually on the wrist, above the joint.

I was also told that this is so you can cut the forearm down like a bokken (projecting th person if necessary), and stop uke dropping the shoulder. I find this is the case, and when training with people that do it the other way, I find that it is easy to drop the elbow and get outof it) - however this may be due to the fact that the wrist can be taken away from uke's body (demanding a breakfall over the top), which can't be escaped by dropping the elbow.

Are these two different techniques?

Ian
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Old 06-28-2001, 05:39 PM   #2
Brian Vickery
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Re: Shiho-nage

Quote:
Originally posted by ian
After many years of practise I notice that I do shiho-nage differently to many other people in aikido.

Are these two different techniques?

Ian
Ian,

...No, I don't think that they're two different techniques, just different 'variations' of the same technique!

...We do shihonage just as you learned it the majority of the time, but we do execute it differently in certain situations. Looks very different but it's still shihonage!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 06-29-2001, 08:35 AM   #3
ian
 
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Thanks Brian!
I realised this would be a short thread 'cos many people won't have done it both ways - but I am reassured that my favourite way of doing it is not a bastardised form. (The reason I noticed was I just saw the other version done in 'complete aikido' by Yamada - a book I've had for 12 years!)

Ian
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Old 06-29-2001, 09:20 AM   #4
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

I've seen shihonage performed both ways. Personally, I use method number 1 about 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time I use a method similar to number 2, only I place my second hand a little further up uke's forearm (almost like yonkyo).

I was watching "Out For Justice" a few days ago and in the opening scene, Seagal performs a tenkan shihonage very similar to the second method I described above. Have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 07-02-2001, 06:34 AM   #5
Greg Jennings
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3rd and 4th way

A third way, which is our "nominal" way, is to have both of your hands right in the crease of uke's wrist.

Saito Sensei teaches this way. For those that have "Takemusu Aikido", the details of the hand arrangement are shown in the volume that has shihonage and the "Special Edition" that is a remake of the Founder's "Budo".

A fourth way is to have the top hand actually controlling uke's elbow. We have a technique that we call "nanakyo" that is a sort of ikkyo with uke's elbow pointed down (and forward) vice pointed up as in normal ikkyo.

Nage extends strongly into the crease of uke's elbow (the inside; there is no threat of hyper-extension) and moves as in ikkyo ura.
Uke plops head first. It's rather interesting.

Now if uke tries to raise the arm up before nage manages to take initially his balance, nage goes with it and performs shihonage. Very impressive. Very dangerous if done at high speed.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 07-02-2001, 06:46 AM   #6
ian
 
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Ah yes, tried that variation on shiho-nage a few times. Also find that you can let go with your 'top' hand and instead use this to do an irimi-nage movement whilst still usign your left hand to do shiho-nage.

Just a quick question Greg; for nanakyo, how do you hold uke's wrist?

; I am used to doing Karame Nage (I think is the name) from ikkyo type movements, if uke stands up i.e. you keep hold of uke's wrist and fold it in (a bit like shiho-nage but the nearest arm is on the inside of uke's arm, and grabbing the wrist, whilst the other either holds the wrist of forms a bar lock (as in jujitsu). - if you do shiho-nage from Nanakyo, do you have to turn your arm over the front of uke's wrist to get the proper shiho-nage?

(I'm starting to realise why many people think of shiho-nage as the core-technique in aikido!)

Ian
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Old 07-02-2001, 09:33 PM   #7
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by ian
Ah yes, tried that variation on shiho-nage a few times. Also find that you can let go with your 'top' hand and instead use this to do an irimi-nage movement whilst still usign your left hand to do shiho-nage.
The "bottom" hand is the "drawing hand" that initially takes uke's balance. Once that is done, any number of techniques come out.

Instead of the iriminage/kokyunage throw, try wrapping your arm all the way around their head in an inverted head lock. Then gently and ever so carefully drop to your outside knee. Guide uke down till your inside knee is in the the middle of uke's back.

Yep. Aikido is not martial <sarcasm>.

Quote:

Just a quick question Greg; for nanakyo, how do you hold uke's wrist?

; I am used to doing Karame Nage (I think is the name) from ikkyo type movements, if uke stands up i.e. you keep hold of uke's wrist and fold it in (a bit like shiho-nage but the nearest arm is on the inside of uke's arm, and grabbing the wrist, whilst the other either holds the wrist of forms a bar lock (as in jujitsu). - if you do shiho-nage from Nanakyo, do you have to turn your arm over the front of uke's wrist to get the proper shiho-nage?
We always control with the bottom hand with the thumb across the inside/flat/pulse of uke's wrist and both extend and crank. So uke's forearm is turned as in kotegaeshi. Uke's elbow drops/turns to point to their centerline and, and.... well, the end result is that uke's wrist, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee and ankle are all locked on that side. They are totally yours.

If you don't lock them up, they'll reverse you in the blink of an eye.

There used to be a guy that posted to Aikido-L all the time that blasted aikido and shihonage as being ineffective because of how easy it was to counter. Since my instructor had been teaching me how to reverse weak shihonage since my no-kyu days, I knew what the guy was talking about and why he was missing the boat.

You know the story. Aikido works but his didn't and he didn't know the difference.

Quote:

(I'm starting to realise why many people think of shiho-nage as the core-technique in aikido!)
I don't know that it's that shihonage the technique is so important or that shihonage the practice is so illustrative of two core technical principles of aikido.

1. Take their center.
2. Once you take their center, never give it back.

These are my ideas only. Subject to all the usual caveats.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 07-04-2001, 07:19 AM   #8
ian
 
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Cheers Greg,

(I think I've seen that inverted headlock technique in Daito-ryu)



Ian
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Old 07-04-2001, 10:31 AM   #9
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by ian
Cheers Greg,

(I think I've seen that inverted headlock technique in Daito-ryu)
Well, yes. Of course.

If that would attract adverse attention, try this.

After cutting/extending/cranking and achieving the lock that I spoke of, take the locked shoulder with your other hand and drop to your inside knee. Pull uke such that his elbow is bridged across the crease of your outside hip/thigh.

While we do a lot of things down into pins, it doesn't have to be.

Experiment with taking uke down with a half circle rather than a straight line. That is once you get them going down and back, actually push the shoulder back at uke's feet. {Be careful, it's awkward for uke; it keeps him from taking an easy fall.} You can take them back, round off the arc, push toward their feet and move away without going down to your knee.

Another variation that is interesting: If uke really follows the locked hand such that you see more of the back of his head than the side, take him down with his head rather than his shoulder. Just reach over the top of his head, glue your fingers into his forehead and take him back and down. Don't push at his feet, might hurt his neck.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 07-11-2001, 09:09 AM   #10
ian
 
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Thanks for all that Greg; I feel like there is more aikido training to do than I have got years left in my life; better keep plugging away.

Ian
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