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Old 01-24-2006, 05:58 AM   #1
rottunpunk
Dojo: koteikan aikido centre
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sword ban?

i know some of you on here use swords.
i dont know if you are aware, but on kendo-world and some of the other forums there is a bit of a who-har about a ban.

i emailed hazel bleary who seems to be the main instigator for the ban, to ask what the likelyhood of a ban was and got the following letter in reply.

thought it might be worthwhile showing it to anyone whos interested. i think a few of the iaido ryu are writing official letters. dont know if any aiki groups would want to.

**********************************************
SC1 (Public Order and Police Co-Operation)
Fry Building, 2 Marsham Street, London SW1P 4DF
Switchboard 020 7035 4848 Fax: 020 7035 4745 Textphone: 020 7035 4742
E-mail: public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk Website: www.homeoffice.gov.uk

Ms Deborah Bell
d.e.b@hotmail.co.uk
Reference: T2494/6 23 January 2006
Dear Ms Bell,
Thank you for your email of 13 January to Hazel Blears regarding a possible ban on samurai swords.
The Government is considering banning samurai swords due to their use in violent crime but are also looking at providing exemptions.
It is an offence under section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 to sell, manufacture or import any of the offensive weapons listed in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988. There are currently 17 weapons listed in that Order. If we do ban samurai swords then they will be added to that Order.
The Violent Crime Reduction Bill currently before Parliament amends this legislation to provide for exemptions and defences specific to certain weapons, either in respect of weapons which are listed in the Order, or ones which may be added in the future.
Interested Parties will be given an opportunity to comment on the details of any ban and I will ensure that you are given an opportunity to make further comments.

Yours sincerely,
Mohammed Rahman.
SC1 (Public Order and Police Co-Operation)
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Old 01-24-2006, 11:48 AM   #2
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Hi Deborah,

A bit worrying for the MA world.

I think it would be far more useful to ban stupidity/stupid people, they are far more dangerous than the Samurai sword!

After the sword, the kitchen knife, after the kitchen knife, the potato peeler.

Mind you, have you seen how cheaply you can by a repro Samurai sword for!

Cheap weapon + cheap booze + low IQ = Restrictions for the rest of us.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-24-2006, 01:10 PM   #3
Bronson
 
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Re: sword ban?

Why just "samurai swords"? Why not any sword? Why not make it illegal to cary any blade above a specific length? How, exactly are they going to define "samurai sword"?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 01-24-2006, 01:58 PM   #4
Zach Sarver
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Re: sword ban?

How often are people attacked by someone with a "samurai sword"? Is this a normal occurance where the ban is being issued? On that note where is the ban being issued.
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Old 01-24-2006, 10:01 PM   #5
Aiki Teacher
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Re: sword ban?

This is why in America we have fought so diligently to insure our right to keep and bare arms. Take away from the common citizen the right to defend himself, and the only one who will own the weapons will be the terrorist and the crooks.
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Old 01-24-2006, 11:54 PM   #6
Simbo
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Re: sword ban?

Zach, I was wondering how often people are attacked with samurai swords too.
"No Officer (I guess "Constable" on that side of the "pond"), this is a NINJA sword, not a Samurai sword, so completely legal"

Johnny, and don't' forget the police and military. And I don't think politicians carry guns...oh sorry, different kind of crooks you meant. Sorry
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Old 01-25-2006, 05:43 AM   #7
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Zachary Sarver wrote:
How often are people attacked by someone with a "samurai sword"? Is this a normal occurance where the ban is being issued? On that note where is the ban being issued.
There is only 'talk' about a ban here in the UK, as there have been a number ( about 5/6 that I can think of, the most recent being a few miles from where I live ) of fatal/near fatal attacks over the last few years. I guess that if guns were easier to come by then the perpetrators of the attack may well have used one of those.

I can understand that Johnny wants to maintain the right to keep and bare arms. But I am wondering how many deaths by firearms are a direct result of being used purely in 'self defence'.

Personaly I'm happy to live in a country where we do not feel/have the need to be armed to be safe, and we are safer for it.

As for samurai swords, we already have laws in place regarding the carrying of offensive weapons. I'm not legally allowed to carry my bokken in public unless I can prove that I have a need to i.e. on my way to and from my class.

Our government are being 'populist' by making statements about banning the sale/ownership of these weapons. I hope it doesn't happen, but if it does there should be some form of licencing system for those involved in the Martial Arts that allows for them to continue using them.

Until recently, a live tanto was used in our san dan gradings, but now unfortunately our insurance will no longer cover for practice with a live blade, bit of a shame really, I loved it! Being attacked with the real thing really gets the old juices flowing

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-10-2006, 02:13 PM   #8
Justin Gaar
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Ki Symbol Re: sword ban?

There was an incident quite a while ago in the states with a guy who took to the streets with a tokugawa era sword and started waving it around in all different directions. The police attempted to disarm him by using bean bag guns and assorted non lethal weapons. He was able to deflect and block some of the bean bags. Then they had the fire department open up a hydrant for a hose and attempted to hose him, all he did was stretch the sword out vertically and lock his arms. Of course it worked. You can't stop several thousand pSi of water with a sword. But it is true. Crimes using the katana and the tanto (mostly the tanto) are on the rise.

If you arrest a mime, do you have tell him he has the right to remain silent?
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Old 02-10-2006, 05:10 PM   #9
Matt Molloy
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Johnny Couch wrote:
This is why in America we have fought so diligently to insure our right to keep and bare arms.

Does this mean that in America, you need to pay a company to cover liability when wearing vests without shirts and that such a dress code is compulsory a la Bruce Willis?

I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 02-11-2006, 07:36 AM   #10
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Does this mean that in America, you need to pay a company to cover liability when wearing vests without shirts and that such a dress code is compulsory a la Bruce Willis?

I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist.

Cheers,

Matt.
Spelling, syntax and phonelogical ambiguities make the english language so much fun

Hoorah for the pedants revolt

Cheers
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:33 AM   #11
djyoung
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Re: sword ban?

I had thought it was completely illegal here in Western Australia to carry any sort of weapon at all. However I have learned we are allowed to carry a small knife with a blade smaller than some specification if worn on the outside of clothes, clearly visible and in a knife pouch.

What amazes me about these bans is that if a cop (officer, bobby, constable, more derogatory terms left out hehe) did find you walking around with a weapon of any kind they would most likely question your intentions even if it is legal, they probably very rarely stop an actual criminal that is intending to use it for any illegal reasons anyway. So does banning or making a weapon illegal actually make them suddenly catch people more? Probably not. It only really adds to the fines they can charge known criminals for when they raid a house and find 'illegal weaponry' or the poor innocent martial artists.

What also seems odd is just banning the flavour of the month. The crims will only move onto other things (as many others here have suggested). Mark: How can a bokken be illegal to carry around, its basically a friggin stick!!!!!

The most stories I have heard of have included a burglary where the victim has been a martial artist and has killed/injured the burglar with a katana. However often in these cases the victim gets sued or sent to jail... yay for the justice system.

However I do totally agree with gun bans, they are extremely dangerous to have so easy to get hold of. I know some sports require guns, but licenses for such sporting weapons are given. I think also a lot of people get shot accidentally because guns can be used at distance and kill very quickly, doesnt so much happen with a knife. You also dont hear of children accidentally stabbing their siblings as often as accidentally shooting them.

Last edited by djyoung : 02-11-2006 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 02-11-2006, 10:28 AM   #12
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

David

Although I broadly agree with your post, I have a problem re:
Quote:
Mark: How can a bokken be illegal to carry around, its basically a friggin stick!!!!!
If I were to attack you with my bokken you would not offer in your defence "Officer he attacked me with a friggin stick!". My bokken is solidly made from japanese oak, it would and could cause a great deal of damage if it was swung in anger ar some poor souls skull.
Hence it can be classified as an offensive weapon.
I personally am happy with a law that requires me not to carry my bokken when I don't need it, as it stops all the morons and deadbeats carrying baseball bats when they dont have a ball between them.
All weapons are offensive, it is the inherent nature of a weapon.
Martial Artists should be allowed to own and use weapons in the controlled environment of the dojo. As far as I am concerned I would rather there wasn't a single weapon out on the 'streets'. And if I had my way, anyone caught with a weapon would not be let off lightly.
Just my humble reactionary opinion

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-11-2006, 11:04 AM   #13
Taliesin
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Re: sword ban?

Offensice weapon = any object made or adapted to cause harm. Theoretically a Bokken is not an offensive weapon until/unless it is used to cause harm.

BTW - Do not expecty the police, Magistrates or Jury to understand this. And certainly don't bet on any judges knowing this.
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:57 PM   #14
Michael Varin
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Re: sword ban?

This is the best thread in the history of aikiweb. Two things come to mind: 1) I feel sorry for the English, and 2) I'm glad my ancestors left Europe and came to America.

When will people learn that banning weapons achieves nothing but weakening the citizens? Gun control, as it is commonly know, is really nothing but PEOPLE CONTROL. But apparently that is exactly what some of you want.

Mark Freeman said, "I personally am happy with a law that requires me not to carry my bokken when I don't need it..."

Put aside what 'public health officials' have told you for a moment, step back, and really examine what is being said here. People who speak and think like this are ANTI-RIGHTS. If you don't need it, don't carry it, but let that be your choice.

I think the problem is that many Europeans never really got the hang of this freedom thing. Most Americans don't feel the need to be armed to be safe. But it is our right. Not to be safe, but to be armed. The government cannot infringe on certain unalienable rights. We, the people, give power to the government not the other way around. The government can never legislate safety. No matter how much of your power you give to them, they can never do it. Everything that is illegal about the use of weapons is already illegal in my country as I am sure it is in yours, so why ban them? Why not ban criminal behavior?

Some people have an unhealthy fear of firearms.

David Young said, "However I do totally agree with gun bans, they are extremely dangerous to have so easy to get hold of. I know some sports require guns, but licenses for such sporting weapons are given. I think also a lot of people get shot accidentally because guns can be used at distance and kill very quickly..."

Automobiles are extremely dangerous. Should they be banned? A sword can inflict wounds that lead to death faster than a gun can (Don't believe what you see in the movies). And, as far as sports, that's nice, but it's not what guns were made for. Guns were made to protect.

Offensive weapon. What a term!? We don't use that in America (don't worry I'm sure some misguided utopian statist is working on it as I type). Offensive as compared to defense, or offensive as in disagreeable to the senses? Neither is true for weapons. An action can be offensive, but a weapon is not an action; it is an inanimate object. When used to defend yourself, it would be beautiful. If you support disarmament, you support a society where the weak (women, children, elderly, handicapped) can easily be preyed upon by the strong. That is not the picture of society that I have. I am pro-self defense, and more importantly pro-freedom. Because, if the weak become us, the citizens, and the strong become the government, well we all could be a lot closer to Joseph Stalin than any of us like to think.

So first it's register firearms, then ban firearms, then knives, then swords, and then anything they want, because the don't have to listen to you anymore. Look at history, look at present day, it's all around. Maybe my British and European friends have a more up hill battle than we do in America (maybe not), but all of us should demand our liberty. It is an issue of personal responsibility. If your government has to tell you what to do, it has made you a child.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

I don't mean to attack anyone here. I am very passionate about this subject. Presently, in America we seem to be competing to see who can give up the most freedom in exchange for government control, and it has to stop. It is directly opposed to the ideas that made America a successful country.

Michael
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Old 02-11-2006, 02:06 PM   #15
Edwin Neal
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Re: sword ban?

Hear Hear Michael!!!

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-11-2006, 03:59 PM   #16
Kerry Monument
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Grr! Re: sword ban?

Once again the ban the sword call, is this governments knee jerk reaction to a few incidents that have been glamorized in the popular press. One of the incidents happened near my town. It was reported as a samurai sword but was in actual fact a machete.
In my opinion the problem firmly lies with the fact that there are not enough police on duty to stop these people, as evidenced this week with the head line that if you robbed of anything of less than 75 in value don't bother calling the police. but thats another kettle of fish.
We already have an adequate law to deal with this problem just not enough people to enforce it. If you don't fight for the right to own a sword within the bounds of martial arts practice then you'll lose. Don't say it will never happen and bury your head in the sand. Just like people did with handgun ownership or you'll all be handing in your 1000 plus shinken to the scrap man with very little recompense for the pleasure.

Well thats my rant done with.
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Old 02-11-2006, 08:16 PM   #17
Michael Varin
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Re: sword ban?

Hello Kerry,

I'm happy to hear there are people on your side of the pond that are upset about things like this, and I suspect that there are many more. I think you all should not only reject this sort of legislation, but demand your restrictions on firearms be repealed, and vote out anyone who would do otherwise.

I respect police and generally appreciate the job that they do, but I'm not sure more police is the answer to these kinds of problems. It may be different in Great Britain, so I can only speak for America. There have been numerous court decisions that determine that the police have no legal obligation to protect any individual. Also the police can never be everywhere. And that's a good thing, because if you had one officer that followed everyone around 24 hours per day, you would have the most ridiculous example of a police state ever. Ordinary, responsible, law abiding citizens who are able and ready to defend themselves, and have no tolerance for crime will work wonders. And if you simply believe that weapons are to despicable to ever be used by a human being, than it is very hypocritical to ask the police to use weapons in the course of their duty.

Michael
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Old 02-12-2006, 12:48 AM   #18
ChrisHein
 
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Re: sword ban?

Great posts Michael!
If you wish to keep criminals from having the upper hand whilst committing crimes, getting rid of weapons is severely unfair to women, children, and old people, if you managed to get rid of all weapons, large muscular men could take anything they wanted from you, then what, a ban on Gym time?

Bad things are going to happen no matter how many laws you make, the only problem with making too many laws is that you breed a society of children, a society that looks to the government for everything, starts with protection, and goes from there. I think citizens need firearms to protect themselves not only from "criminals" but also from the government as well, forgetting that your government can go wrong might take you down the same path as the Jews of prewar Germany.

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:43 AM   #19
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
This is the best thread in the history of aikiweb. Two things come to mind: 1) I feel sorry for the English, and 2) I'm glad my ancestors left Europe and came to America.
In answer to 1) We wont lose any sleep over here after being so thoroughly patronized .
2) I could say me too, but that would be both unfair and uncalled for.

Quote:
I don't mean to attack anyone here.
You have just spent your entire post attacking European legislation and sensibilities, and your own countries attempts to restrict your own inalienable 'rights'.

If you had read my earlier posts, you would see that I am not in favour of a Sword ban, and that I had also said that it is the people not the weapons that were the problem.

You also quoted the first part of one of my statements without the qualifying second half., tut tut, could do better.

Quote:
People who speak and think like this are ANTI-RIGHTS.
I think people who quote out of context, should have this 'right' serverly curtailed, so yes you may be right about rights but at the same time wrong

Quote:
I'm happy to hear there are people on your side of the pond that are upset about things like this, and I suspect that there are many more. I think you all should not only reject this sort of legislation, but demand your restrictions on firearms be repealed, and vote out anyone who would do otherwise.
There is not a single politician in this country who would stand a cat's chance in hell if they espoused repealing the gun laws. Which shows you have little grasp of the reality of life outside of your own environment. We eliminated the death penalty, should we repeal that at the same time, kill two birds with one stone so to speak?

If you take your argument to some form of logical conclusion, you want all citizens to have the right to keep and bear arms, Why then is this courtesy not extended to countries? Iran for instance. If no weapon is offensive, you should have no problem in allowing both them and Hamas in Palestine to be fully armed with atomic weapons, they are only weapons, no? daft argument I know, but I'm just trying to fathom out the logic.

I'm quite happy for Americans to walk around as heavily armed as they see fit, as long as that is what the majority want. But when you come over here ( if you ever do ) to visit friends or family or just to marvel at our wonderful culture. Leave you firearms at home, you don't need them here. We have managed to work things out to some sort of agreeable level where we can all live together in a relatively free society, the citizenry does not feel the need to be armed against each other or our governments ( who are us! ). We accept some limitations for the overall 'freedom' that they afford us.
Why should you feel threatened by other countries different ways of doing things, we are not calling for any of you rights to be curtailed.
And until you have some grasp of how life works over here, it may be best to keep your comments aimed on home soil.
All free societies have some restrictive rules, otherwise - Anarchy, and that is an ideology that has little chance of taking hold ( so far )

Gun toting, flag waving, tub thumping hoards, scare me and I don't mind admitting it. Armed zealots are a lot more worrying than un-armed ones. And before you get into a tiz Michael, that is not aimed at you, that is just a general statement.

If you don't mean to attack anyone, don't!
If you do mean to attack someone, be honest about it.

Quote:
Why not ban criminal behavior?
What a good idea, I can't believe that that one had slipped through the net

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:04 AM   #20
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I think citizens need firearms to protect themselves not only from "criminals" but also from the government as well, forgetting that your government can go wrong might take you down the same path as the Jews of prewar Germany.
-Chris Hein
I would think that some over here might find this view offensive. Personally I don't, I just find it just plain 'so far from the point' it doesnt bear thinking about.
We have moved on along way since the early 20th Century. Our countries are inextricably linked, and we work together for the peace and prosperity of all European citizens. We do not feel the need to arm ourselves against our own governments, as we feel that collectively we have enough intelligence to see through any ideological extremism, that any one government might start to move toward.

In America things may be different?

regards, from a happily unarmed European
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:12 PM   #21
ChrisHein
 
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I would think that some over here might find this view offensive. Personally I don't, I just find it just plain 'so far from the point' it doesnt bear thinking about.
We have moved on along way since the early 20th Century. Our countries are inextricably linked, and we work together for the peace and prosperity of all European citizens. We do not feel the need to arm ourselves against our own governments, as we feel that collectively we have enough intelligence to see through any ideological extremism, that any one government might start to move toward.

In America things may be different?

regards, from a happily unarmed European
Mark
I quoted the whole thing so you won't get in a tizzy.

Well, the early 20th century wasn't quite so long ago, I wouldn't go touting our extreme intellectual evolution just yet, it was only 60 years ago. Forgetting the past will only doom you to repeat it, Maybe you should look into the track record of super strong governments. While a sword ban might seem small now, who knows what is next, and if the government doesn't control it, it's just out of control right? No one is suggesting an anarchy, I just think that it's your right to protect yourself, and taking away weapons will keep you from doing that, weather it's a man gone bad, or a government.

Besides, I didn't hear the english complaining when we barbaric gun touting Americans came to lend a hand not so long ago, but I know you hate being reminded of that, so I'll refrain.

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:25 PM   #22
Edwin Neal
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Re: sword ban?

as an ex military it amuses me to see folks still say we bear arms to keep the government in check... get real! Bubba and his buddies with their shotguns and pickup trucks won't stand a chance against the hardware and training of the military... and before anyone says "But Iraq" let me say that the idiots who are giving the orders are playing some sort of game not trying to win a war... the soldiers are in a no win situation, but still holding tough in a country where everyone has guns and rpg's and shit and they are severly out numbered and undersupported by the policy makers in Washington...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-12-2006, 09:31 PM   #23
Michael Varin
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Re: sword ban?

Mark,

I apologize if you feel that I quoted you out of context. However, I don't think that was the case. I understood you to say that you would give up some of your rights to control the behavior of people that you consider to be "morons and deadbeats." I simply stated that I think that is a mistake.

I did read your earlier post and realized that you weren't in favor of the sword ban. I even noticed that you seemed to indicate your dislike for eroding freedom, pointing toward a bleak future when potato peelers would be banned, but then resigned yourself to the idea that restrictions are inevitable. This is what I was trying to address.

I do respect the fact that citizens of any particular country should decide how they are governed and how their society is structured. I am not an imperialist and don't think we should impose our will on anyone, which is why I am a strong advocate of Liberty. I don't think it is out of the question to share, what I think are, good, sound ideas with others. What I wrote was more for Americans than for Europeans, although I believe all could benefit.

I have been to England, France, Switzerland, and Italy (don't worry, I didn't bring any weapons - except, apparently, tweezers which were confiscated on one of my trips!). I very much enjoyed each country and wished I could have stayed longer. Also, although it doesn't really matter, my girlfriend is French. So, while I'm sure that I don't understand your environment as well as you do, I'm not some beer swilling country boy who's never left the ranch.

I am not an advocate of the death penalty, and don't see how my being pro-self defense and pro-civil rights has anything to do with the death penalty. I never said I like killing people. And your "wonderful culture" has is not without its dangers. Have we forgotten the riots in France? Did someone mention anarchy?

As for the so called logical conclusion to this argument, I was talking about citizens NOT governments. Governments have no rights. They have duties and powers that we give them. You're somewhat confusing the issue. To answer your question, while I may not like Iran to have nuclear weapons, I can understand why they would want them. If nuclear weapons are to be used purely in defense of a nation and not aggression, again what harm are they causing? I maintain that if the people of these nations were introduced to liberty, personal responsibility, and small government we wouldn't even have these problems!

I appreciate your humor about my opening 1, 2 comment, but don't get too snooty. It's just an internet forum.

Michael
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:28 AM   #24
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Micheal,

Thanks for your considered response, I appreciate it. My 'snooty' tone was in response to you feeling sorry for the English. Had I not been English I may have not been so high handed. So that said, perhaps we can move on in good humour?

I guess there are fundamental differences between the American and European ways of doing things. Gun Control being one of the most obvious.
My use of the 'repeal the Death Penalty', was just to highlight a point, there is virtually no possibility of it ever being brought back, along with the repeal of our Gun control laws, so the suggestion that we may vote out those who do not support it is not an option.

Personally the citizenry being armed is not in my opinion ( nor my fellow countryman's ) a good idea, sharing it may by fine, but we've already decided it's merits.

As for the 'nukes' I did say that it was 'daft' I was just trying to find out the limits of everyone being 'armed' or more correctly having the freedom to be armed if they so chose. I do not see the distinction so clearly between governments and people, as I think that governments are no more than people doing work for the people, admittedly sometimes badly and admittedly sometimes fraudulently as was recently the case when both your and my governments took us to war!

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip to Europe, and I am very aware of the shortcomings that we have in our cobbled together sort of union of states. The fact that you've been here means you are probably aware of the 'picture' we often get of the 'beer swilling country boy who never left the ranch' which sometimes gets confused with 'americans' in general. This is ridiculous I know, as I have been to the US on over a dozen occasions. Unfortunately the sight of your current president being questioned about 'places and people' from foreign lands early in his presidency, and him not having a clue about virtually any of the answers, coupled with the fact that he liked a drink or two in his day, is going to be a hard one for us Euros to shift.

Anyway, back to the sword ban!
last week one of our region newspapers published a poll where those polled were asked "Would you support a ban on Samurai Swords". 58% said yes
This does not mean neccessarily that it will happen. Approximately the same or possibly more were against the War in Iraq.
Funnily enough that is the same % figure that I have seen reported of the American poulation who would support pre-emptive strikes on Nuclear facilities in Iran.
Although I agree 'weapons' are inanimate objects, and it is in the minds of people that they become 'offensive' If there were strikes on these facilities ( and they are not being ruled out ) I am very pessimistic of the outcome.
Being armed may be part of what you see as Liberty, but it is not going to help combat the determined suicide bomber (an offensive weapon in anyones language and in the true sense of the word) nor will it deal with the causes of terrorism. As I have already said un-armed zealots are not quite so scary.

'Mabye' in your ideal world everyone would be armed so there would be peace, in my ideal world no-one would be armed and there would be peace. Either way I'm sure we agree we want the same outcome. Unfortunately we are along way off of that ideal.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:39 AM   #25
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I quoted the whole thing so you won't get in a tizzy.

Well, the early 20th century wasn't quite so long ago, I wouldn't go touting our extreme intellectual evolution just yet, it was only 60 years ago. Forgetting the past will only doom you to repeat it, Maybe you should look into the track record of super strong governments. While a sword ban might seem small now, who knows what is next, and if the government doesn't control it, it's just out of control right? No one is suggesting an anarchy, I just think that it's your right to protect yourself, and taking away weapons will keep you from doing that, weather it's a man gone bad, or a government.

Besides, I didn't hear the english complaining when we barbaric gun touting Americans came to lend a hand not so long ago, but I know you hate being reminded of that, so I'll refrain.

-Chris Hein
I'm not in a tizzy, thanks for your concern anyway.
I did not bring up the war, you did, twice.
I did not say the americans were barbaric, that's your own description

I realise it is your right to think "that it's your right to protect yourself, and taking away weapons will keep you from doing that, weather it's a man gone bad, or a government."

I am equally within my rights to believe that you are wrong

You can't refrain from saying something after you've said it

regards
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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