Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-21-2006, 12:19 AM   #1
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Back to basics or not?

Dear all,

Just recently I had a visiting guest instructor at my dojo. This instructor is a good friend of my sensei and they did aikido together a long time ago in the early 80's. This man has since been relatively inactive in aikido, but he is actively doing some koryu bujutsu (weapon based) art.

With his massive bulk (250 lbs), huge arm and wrist like logs, his aikido was solid and the locks were painful to take. It was a challenge for all of us normal sized students to move or put locks on him. His wrists seem unbendable.

Almost all of us lowly students cannot move him and that include the shodan and the ikkyu grades as well.

I recalled from my studies, atemi and kuzushi are two very important ingredients to execute a technique, more so if the person is actively resisting; however when I tried to incorporate those two fundamental principles, the guest instructor frown upon them. He said I should not be relying on these "fancy smancy stuff to make my aikido work". He continued and said that instead I should work on my basic and do aikido as aikido.

Some background information:

To me, I view atemi as part of "tsukuri", i.e, to create an opening or an opportunity to effect on an otherwise very resistive opponent.

To me, kuzushi is unbalancing the opponent. I achieve this through pushing and pulling, (think of Happo no kuzushi)

So my questions are:

1) Am I doing correct aikido if I were to rely on atemi and kuzushi (The so called "fancy-smancy stuff") to execute techniques?

2) What is pure aikido? His aikido is pretty solid and effective and devoid of the atemi and kuzushi to make it effective. But I must caveat; I can also execute my aikido technique devoid of atemi and kuzushi if my uke happens to be smaller and physically weaker.

3) Is the guest instructor being too one-tract minded in his pursuit of aikido excellence, without taking into account the variations of different body built?

I welcome your thoughts and feedback. Domo arigato.

Signed: A confused student.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2006, 03:02 AM   #2
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Hi Boon - I doubt much of what I have to say will be of much help; but my opinions would be thus:
Quote:
1) Am I doing correct aikido if I were to rely on atemi and kuzushi (The so called "fancy-smancy stuff") to execute techniques?
IMO; it's a mistake to rely on anything - or rather, any one thing; because if it fails; you fail. I've heard it said repeatedly that atemi is extremely important but keep in mind the purpose. Is it to distract? Stun? Damage? What if it does none of these? My personal recommendation is to concentrate on getting the technique right first; andonce you've got it good then add atemi in afterwards.
Gravy doesn't make a meal; but it covers the meat real nice.

Quote:
2) What is pure aikido?
IMO 'pure' aikido is all about whoever's calling it 'pure' at the moment. I don't like 'pure' myself. I like 'effective'.
Quote:
His aikido is pretty solid and effective and devoid of the atemi and kuzushi to make it effective. But I must caveat; I can also execute my aikido technique devoid of atemi and kuzushi if my uke happens to be smaller and physically weaker.
OK - now can he do the same thing to someone his size or larger? You said he's got 20+ years experience - I'm betting yes. I'd say this is a golden opportunity for you to learn where the holes lie in your own technique.

Quote:
3) Is the guest instructor being too one-tract minded in his pursuit of aikido excellence, without taking into account the variations of different body built?
There's no way to know; but based on your post I'd suggest no. I personally believe that one must develop one's own aikido based on size and body shape - I'm a classic example of that - but one shouldn't use body shape as an excuse for doing things incorrectly - something I'm constantly guilty of.
This is tricky - I'll use myself as an example. I'm 6'4", 215lbs. Fairly strong, but not particularly so. On the downside; I'm also rather damaged goods with a great many broken bones, joint problems, limited mobility etc. One thing I constantly have to guard against is using my physical characteristics as an excuse for doing things wrong. While practicing a technique involving movement that causes me pain, for example; I'll often 'patch' it in such a way that I can accomplish the technique - but more often than not; that patch is wrong - it involves muscling through a technique, using my height to advantage or some such.
Or what's worst - I'll say "I can't do that because it hurts too much".
That's bad. What I should be doing is looking at the technique; working to understand why exactly it does what it does then practicing the movement in such a way that I can accomplish it within my body's parameters; while at the same time meeting the requirements of the technique's fundamentals.
Doing it the first way; if I try the technique on someone smaller - which is just about everyone else in the dojo save two - I can do it. If OTOH uke is large and massive; it will fail because I didn't do the technique right.
Doing it the second way; the person's size and mass don't matter, because aikido technique works around size and strength. The second way's far harder; both in practice and in discipline; but that's the whole point isn't it?
For specifics; I'd suggest really starting to think about the milking stool analogy. A person regardless of size is supported by two of the legs; move him to the third. I'm not sure what your interpretation of kuzushi is; but mine means - in part - to destabilize by moving uke's CG outside his cone of balance - IOW; using geometry to topple him rather than force.
(Shrug) That's as far as my opinion takes me at the moment - hope it was of some help.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2006, 07:56 AM   #3
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

I have been taught by my teachers the following.
1) Aikido is what makes the technique work. That is all that should make the techniques work because that is what we are here to practice. If I can't move you with Aikido, then start over and try again but it must be Aikido that will make it work.
2) Atemi is not to make the technique "work". Atemi is for the occasion where you are doing a technique and in order to perform the technique. you must put yourself in a unsafe place or in a place where the opponent can strike you - then you use atemi to cover the opening and /or to protect yourself. Also, the atemi must be in the natural flow of the technique.
3) Kuzushi is an inherent part of each Aikido technique. It is not an extra or separate movement. If I can't do the technique, I have done something wrong. I can't add kuzushi later. I will add that none of my teachers talked much about that because it is a part of every technique.

I must add that how people teach atemi and kuzushi depends on the kind of Aikido being taught. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being the most jujutsu-like and 10 being the most ki-like, I would say that what I am saying would be about in the middle or a 5. If you are being taught to atemi to make techniques work, that would tend to more jujutsu like applications.If you are being taught more toward pure technique, that would tend more toward a pure ki application. What I am trying to say is that everyone will adapt Aikido to a place along that range. They will do that because that is the way they were taught or because that is what they prefer. I remember that at the 2002 Aiki Expo in Las Vegas, I trained with someone from a mixed Aikido style where they used Karate and Judo also. We were doing Shomenuchi Ikkyo and it was the first technique. I attacked him and he grabbed my arm and went with all his strength and power and slammed my face into the ground ( and I must add violently). I said to him, "Say buddy, take it easy!" He responded, "I had to take your kuzushi!".
That's OK. He was just responding in the way he was trained. On that 1 to 10 line, he was being taught his Aikido as a 1. I say that because the kuzushi was more than the Aiki.

These are just my ideas and interpretation of what you described.
There are other ways of looking at what you said besides my way. I look forward to reading how others will interpret your experience.
Best wishes,

Last edited by Jorge Garcia : 01-21-2006 at 08:08 AM.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2006, 09:05 AM   #4
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 266
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Impossible to answer without seeing what he does and what you do. Almost all techniques can be blocked from anyone (Yes, even Shihans if you want to accept what follows!), if you make micro-adjustments as your partner begins to move, and many seniors do this all the time to illustrate certain points, (or just to be a pain in the butt!) I don't really think it matters, unless you both understand what you are studying within the technique at that given moment.
Jorge says, "Aikido is what makes the technique work. That is all that should make the techniques work because that is what we are here to practice. If I can't move you with Aikido, then start over and try again but it must be Aikido that will make it work" I think AIKI is what makes Aikido work, and waza are just a means for learning and developing Aiki, so static practise has a place as well as dynamic practise. This is why cooperative training according to level and aim is a valid part of learning, but so is working with incremental resistance, which not only shows technical limitations, but grounds you in old pathways of force against force until you learn to move from your centre in an integrated fashion.
What about asking your Sensei why he has not taught you to handle his friends?

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2006, 10:05 AM   #5
Kevin Temple
Dojo: Jinbukan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
Canada
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

There is no back to basics, the basics should always be with you throughout your training.

And I think saying Aikido is "whatever works" is taking too many liberties. If I am training with a smaller partner (it doesn't happen often, I am not a big guy) and I make a technique work by manhandling them instead of using proper technique, I wouldn't consider it aikido. Nor would I consider shooting someone in the face with a gun to stop him from grabbing my wrist Aikido.

In the case of the uke where techniques "don't work" the uke is probably doing something with body movement/postioning that does not allow proper practising of the technique and where a different technique would be more effective. You should bring it up with your sensei, or with him that you are practicing a specific technique and that it will not work in all situations, so unless it is freestyle practise, he is responsible for maintaining the situation where that technique should be used.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2006, 05:28 PM   #6
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

I don't know, but it sounds like this guy was being a dick... atemi is not gravy it is an integral part of aikido, and every technique should be practiced with atemi... I disagree that atemi is to cover yourself... one of the things i like about aikido is that you are constantly moving into a superior tactical position ie uke cannot counterattack... if you are in a vulnerable position trying to make a technique work then your problem lies in execution... kuzushi is also integral to aikido if you are not unbalancing your opponent then you are not using aikido... uke's attack causes nage to move to a superior position to avoid getting hit... nage's movement leads to kuzushi... kuzushi leads uke into nages atemi which flows into waza... thats kind of how i think of it... nage should always be moving to the shikaku or blind spot that is a superior defensive position... i still think the guy sounded like an egotistical you know what, but i was not there so...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2006, 11:06 AM   #7
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Dear friends,

In hindsight, these are my thoughts:

For those who did read my profile, I am a practitioner of the Yoshinkan style of aikido. This teaching method, for those alien to it, has a distinct, almost robotic and mechanical way of executing the technique. All steps are kept to a minimum. Atemi and the entire crucial success factor are exaggerated to teach the students how to make an effective kihon waza (basic technique). After being proficient enough, students are asked to integrate all they learned in a seamless manner in Jiyu-waza (free style fighting). To an outsider, our movement may seem jerky and disharmonious and rather exaggerated, but bear in mind they are for learning purpose only.

To Dave O,
Atemi as I am thought in my system is not part of the icing nor is it the gravy to sweeten the meat. Atemi is part of the main meal. Most kihon has an atemi and we quite exaggerate it to new students to remind them that it is always there.

Further more, in the teaching system, each technique is broken into two parts, the irimi (the entering) version and tenkan (the pivoting) version. Irimi version is when uke pulls shite in; tenkan version is for when uke pushes shite.

For the sake of illustration, one of the techniques we went through was ryote katate mochi tenshin nage ichi (double handed wrist grab, heaven and earth throw, entering version).

Normally, in this technique, we apply if uke happens to pull shite. But as I recall, the guest instructor was pushing me and if logic applies, I should do the tenkan or pivoting version as his energy is working against mine. However, I observed decorum, and just do as was told, without much success. It felt that it was my energy against his.

To Alec Corper,
I looked at Sensei hoping that he could provide me with some technical assistant. He just smiled and told me, "JUST RELAX and don't use too much muscle power."

It would be easy for me to apply the technique on say a smaller person, e.g., a fellow female dojo mate. But for this uke, I could hardly complete my grab on his massive wrist. It was definitely easy for him to throw me, and not otherwise.

My after thoughts are such, it could have been different if say I were to do the tenkan version suddenly and take his balance away. Or I could apply what I learn in the Go shin-waza (Practical application) class such as finger twisting or shin kicking etc to make the technique work. But then it would be consider rude, especially on a senior practitioner like him. Besides I really wanted to make my aikido work in its pure form. Maybe I am over analyzing this episode. I should just let this episode slip away; after all, that was JUST another training session.

To Edwin,
I am not sure if he is being a Dick or not, as I am not good enough to realize if his intention was positive or negative. I will give him the benefit of doubt and learn from his teaching,

Thank you everyone for listening and participating in my thread. I look forward for more comment, and will treat this episode as JUST another training session,

OSSU!

P/S My sensei is more liberal when it comes to what is defined as good aikido. Sometimes, he said, we can allow ourselves to be a little DIRTY when applying aikido technique on a resistant uke. DIRTY meaning, using some JUJUTSU techniques such as finger twisting, shin kicking or throat striking. He is completely cool with this idea if the uke is clearly at a physical advantage e.g., a diminutive lady aikido-ka partnering a hulking giant.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2006, 02:06 PM   #8
Kevin Temple
Dojo: Jinbukan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
Canada
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Practice basics and if uke pushes where he should pull, lets go where he should grab, doesn't move when he should, etc. apply the technique that he is providing the uke for. Then correct him. If you don't feel comfortable correcting him, talk to your sensei. He may be trying to show you how to improve your technique throw showing you which parts of it are weak, if this is the case, ask him to tell you the weaknesses he sees instead of constantly being uncooperative.

I train yoshinkan as well, and both shite and uke are practising their respective movements and must learn to do them correctly to prevent painful developements, allow escapes and counters, and to keep from being punched in the face. Bad uke is detrimental to the learning process of both people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2006, 10:04 PM   #9
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Boon - the man was just a visitor to your dojo. That means.

Unlike your regular teacher he has no investment in your Aikido.

What is your teacher teaching you? Are you doing that or going off on your own tangent?

Kuzushi is central to good Aikido and atemi has always been part of it. Now if you have a habit of unnecessary flourishes and extraneous movement - perhaps that is what he was talking about.

I can see it now Mr. "fancy smancy"".

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 01:28 AM   #10
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

I too started in yoshinkan with Parker shihan and Terada shihan in Japan... I know what you mean when you describe the almost robotic style easy for beginners, but smoother for more advanced students... most truly good and humble teachers will not "jam" your technique or at least if they do will point out where you need to concentrate to avoid being jammed... you should never have to resort to the more street style or goshindo waza against aikidoka in a class... as he was a visitor take it for a learning experience and don't be discouraged... keep practicing and good luck...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 02:28 AM   #11
Ian Upstone
Location: Sussex
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 80
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Interesting dilemma. Without knowing the whole situation you could come to all sorts of different conclusions, but given just the bare facts of that example (ryote moche tenchinage ichi) where uke "should" be pulling, but was in fact, and as a senior, doing the opposite, you may have several options and motives here.

1. He was pushing in order to make you use correct technique against his push - as you know, the technique is laughably easy with uke pulling (as it should be!) so without that from uke you have to use excellent technique (using hiriki properly, extending the lower hand both out and around uke as you step etc etc).

2. He wanted to see if you were thinking on your feet (using the 'ni' (ura) version from his push, or in some way adapting the technique to move through him despite the push - sometimes a little pull, so uke changes to compensate, then an irimi movement as he does this may do the trick)

3. He was, as been suggested, being an awkward bugger to claim a small and pointless victory over you.

As this chap had lots going for him (physical size/strength, a guest and a senior) and obviously didn't explain his reasons, you were left guessing, and were not in a position to dominate him either through rank politeness or physical size. I'd guess he was doing option 1, espescially if he is a strong proponent of getting basics to work, but like I said, that's a guess!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 12:51 PM   #12
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:


I recalled from my studies, atemi and kuzushi are two very important ingredients to execute a technique, more so if the person is actively resisting; however when I tried to incorporate those two fundamental principles, the guest instructor frown upon them. He said I should not be relying on these "fancy smancy stuff to make my aikido work". He continued and said that instead I should work on my basic and do aikido as aikido.


Did you use "ki" in your waza?

Maybe he didn't detect any "ki" on your part, but muscle strength?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 02:05 PM   #13
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Hi Boon,

Quote:
For the sake of illustration, one of the techniques we went through was ryote katate mochi tenshin nage ichi (double handed wrist grab, heaven and earth throw, entering version).

Normally, in this technique, we apply if uke happens to pull shite. But as I recall, the guest instructor was pushing me and if logic applies, I should do the tenkan or pivoting version as his energy is working against mine. However, I observed decorum, and just do as was told, without much success. It felt that it was my energy against his.
I don't know who the instructor was, but in my opinion based on your description is that basics were not his focus that one particular time. If I am asked to do an ichi movement against someone pushing into me, first I have to somehow redirect / absorb their force. Once I do that, I can sometimes 'release my strength', which causes uke to weaken, and then I can enter against what **was** their power.

Find a partner at your dojo who is stronger and have them use a firm grip and push strongly into you. Start from a strong kamae, but make sure you draw your shoulders back and then down (kind of bring your shoulder blades together, then make sure you still let your shoulders drop). You should kind of have a feeling of heavy elbows. Practice having them push into you while you 'absorb' the push through your body into the ground. You should feel fairly relaxed, but almost like you are expanding in to their push, but their power kind of washes over you without getting anything to grab onto.

As you get that down, then you can experiment with how to circle your arms forward as you bend your front knee and xstep. [left arm down, right arm up, bottom hand outside, upper hand inside, yada yada, you know that already] If you are not absorbing uke's power, you won't be able to do this at all. Try slowly first, maintaining that feeling of their power washing over you, then speed up over time.

Once you have that working, you can start introducing sharp movements in to the waza. Chida Sensei teaches a 'kokyu' version where he stands still, and uke does whatever, and then there is a sharp movement, and uke is thrown with tenchinage. He does it primarily by taking all of the slack out of the relationship, combined with sharp, precise movement. He's quite fantastic at it! He never changes stance, just one small sudden movement and uke goes flying into a high back breakfall, regardless of push, pull or hold. You might want to experiment with that method too. Hint: Chida Sensei seems to keep a lot of focus on the triangle in the back of the hips...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 03:48 PM   #14
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
1) Am I doing correct aikido if I were to rely on atemi and kuzushi (The so called "fancy-smancy stuff") to execute techniques?

2) What is pure aikido? His aikido is pretty solid and effective and devoid of the atemi and kuzushi to make it effective. But I must caveat; I can also execute my aikido technique devoid of atemi and kuzushi if my uke happens to be smaller and physically weaker.

3) Is the guest instructor being too one-tract minded in his pursuit of aikido excellence, without taking into account the variations of different body built?

I've had similar experiences. After being angry with the guy for a few months, I got over myself and really looked at the techniques he did it to me on, I realized that he was giving me the right opening for the technique, but I was so preoccupied with the way I was "supposed" to do the technique, I totally blew an excellent opportunity for learning.

So, if I were in your shoes, I'd say that he was giving me a specific opening for me to respond to and I needed to figure out what it was.

For example, way back when, one of my many former nemesis (,sees, or ses?) wouldn't losen his grip as I advance for a hiriki-no-yosei-ichi type technique. Turns out, he just wouldn't let me use my shoulder to undo his hold. Mmm mmm, how many moments do you wish you could do over?

Anyway, that's my 2.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2006, 05:12 AM   #15
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Without seeing you and him, any technical comment is moot.

However, I would like to respond to the title:
returning to the basics is always good, and the more advanced you are, the more enjoyment you will get from practicing a technique for longer periods of time and looking for the best ways of doing them.

Kuzushi should not be separated from the technique, at least not in the style I learn. Atemi should be practiced, but most techniques are not dependent on it, and it should be possible to apply them even without the atemi.
A more advanced practitioner of similar styles will almost always be able to negate anything you do with micro-moves of his own. There is nothing to do about this, he is just being a bad Uke.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2006, 07:11 AM   #16
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Hey Jean,

Good to see you posting again.

Hi Amir,

Of course, you are right on one level. But I've had some experiences lately that tell me some of the worst uke are actually being the best uke. They are challenging me to grow. That's a pretty special gift when you think about it. Because of our similar background (yoshinkan), I think I see what that particular uke was going for, but of course, without being there, there's no way to really know.
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2006, 08:03 AM   #17
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Back to basics or not?

Iwama style kihon starts from a static position where uke is allowed to get a firm and stable grip. And there is no push/pull instructions for ex. tai no henko, kokyu-ho, tenchinage. Just a solid connected grip, no escaping, no micro movements to lock down your partner.

So as an Iwama stylist, there´s only one answer: More basics!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
who'd you go back in time to train with? rob_liberti General 50 06-01-2008 11:05 PM
Back Problems Abasan Training 30 08-24-2006 08:48 PM
Aiki Expo Thoughts (Long!) akiy Seminars 5 09-29-2003 10:15 PM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 12:45 PM
Back roll Amin Basri General 11 11-07-2002 02:36 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:06 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate