Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-22-2006, 03:58 PM   #26
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 515
United Nations
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Diverse and unified is a possibility that I like.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2006, 08:21 PM   #27
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,440
Offline
Re: Towards a unified Aikido ?

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
Diverse and unified is a possibility that I like.
Like "government intelligence", the two words don't work together. "Unified" implies a single direction. Perhaps "diverse, but mutually inclusive" would be more doable.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 01:49 AM   #28
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

I like the diverse, but inclusive as I believe that is the state of the art now; however I am not suggesting uniformity in waza or methodology... the teachers that were used as illustrations were all "blessed" or authorized by Osensei... each great teacher will interpret aikido in their own unique way... and we do the "Tohei hop" sometimes... one must be flexible in how a technique can be applied... my real point with a core of knowledge that is central to all aikido organization ( which i believe is the the case ) would possibly help keep frauds from trying to teach whatever they want as aikido... I feel we owe it to all aikidoka past, present and future to preserve the integrity of our art... not let it be whittled away by hucksters from the outside... i am NOT saying uniform aikirobots, but some kind of quality control, and a reasonable amount of aikido cultural literacy to ensure that potential students are not cheated and possibly "put off" and never try any MA again...

ps the original "split" happened after Osensei's passing and was between Tohei and K. Ueshiba... the united states are a collection of differing organizations (states) united by commonalities... why can't aikido be similar...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 07:52 AM   #29
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,440
Offline
Re: Towards a unified Aikido ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
the united states are a collection of differing organizations (states) united by commonalities... why can't aikido be similar...
Because the states couldn't (and wouldn't) survive as individual republics (in spite of what Texas may think). They need the federal government for sustenance and protection, and are therefore compelled to endure the hardships of that dependence. Such is not the case with the various Aikido organizations. Also, the U.S. government is a poor example because it is probably one of the most inefficient mechanisms in human history. Any business run like the federal government would be bankrupt in MINUTES.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 08:12 AM   #30
IlyasDexter
Dojo: Unity Aikido
Location: Hobart
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 19
Australia
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

I once asked my Sensei " Why the different styles" she answered me by saying she asked Tomiki Sensei the same question and he swiftly cut her off and said "There is only one Aikido". And he means the priciple. Just keep training as sincerely as you can and in time you'll come to to understand the underlying priciples of technique and style will be irrelavent. Tomiki Sensei also once told John Gay Sensei "Remember aikido is only three things, posture, movement and balance breaking."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 08:26 AM   #31
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Edwin it is easy enough to research tha background of just about any akido teacher of repute. If I can't find information on background and lineage than I will generally assume that the person has something to hide or is withholding for some mysterious reason and in that case I wouldn't even bother going further.
I chose my sensei because he is an Open Book.
While people may not have the ethics to present themselves completely and honestly, people also must be free to make their own choices, and if someone chooses to train at a McDojo, it is their choice.I can choose not to train with them.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 10:15 AM   #32
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A�kido ?

Quote:
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson
The same freedom that allows for such rich diversity allows the hucksters to operate... a small price in my book.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 10:39 AM   #33
tedehara
 
tedehara's Avatar
Dojo: Evanston Ki-Aikido
Location: Evanston IL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 826
Offline
Re: Towards a unified Aikido ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
... and we do the "Tohei hop" sometimes... one must be flexible in how a technique can be applied...
But do you know when to do it and why you're doing it? That's the real test.
Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
ps the original "split" happened after Osensei's passing and was between Tohei and K. Ueshiba... the united states are a collection of differing organizations (states) united by commonalities... why can't aikido be similar...
The original split was really not just K. Tohei vs K. Ueshiba. Koichi Tohei wanted to standardize Aikido (sound familiar?). Other senior instructors felt that this would eliminate their individual styles of Aikido. Because they had studied with the founder like K. Tohei, they believed their styles of Aikido to be just as valid as anything Tohei would come up with.

To use the US analogy, it seems to me that now Aikikai is more like the Confederate States of America rather than the USA. There are Aikikai groups that do not want to associate with anyone - including those from Aikikai.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 01:01 PM   #34
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,440
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Politics... An ugly business in any language. Aikido should be about truth, but truth cannot be kept pure when humans are involved.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 01:06 PM   #35
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Pragmatically, how would you unify the syllabus of Ki Society and Aikikai schools, given that Tohei sensei removed from the KS curriculum techniques that Aikikai regards as fundamental (i.e. iriminage, kotagaeshi, koshinage)?

I think it would be exceptionally difficult either to force Ki Society schools to teach throws that they regard as unsafe or contrary to their style, or to force Aikikai schools to give up throws that they regard as fundamental. A lot of dojo would probably go independent rather than make such a drastic change.

On the other hand, as a Ki Society student who cross-trains with the Aikikai, I don't feel that the split has done me any harm. I occasionally get confronted with a technique I don't know, but I think it's good for me--keeps me on my toes. And once the basic principles are learned it's not really that hard to pick up new techniques.

Any reputable aikido school will teach you what you need to know to do aikido, and then you can go out and do aikido with anyone you please and learn from them. That's a great thing, a real strength of the art. The only possible exception is that if your dojo de-emphasizes breakfalls you'll need to inform practice partners of this, and work on learning them to keep yourself safe.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 01:44 PM   #36
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

It is more likely that a government entity will begin to regulate all of us under "martial arts" than it is that all aikido schools will pay dues to the same organization.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 06:47 PM   #37
James Kelly
Dojo: Glendale Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 109
United Nations
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
the united states are a collection of differing organizations (states) united by commonalities... why can't aikido be similar...
I have to say this is not a very good example. More Americans were killed trying to define the boundaries between centralized, federal authority and the rights of individual states than any other event.

All my previous silliness aside, there are freedom of expression issues at stake here. Even if all the legitimate styles of aikido were able to see their way through to unification, there's still nothing to stop some guy from hanging an aikido sign over his door and calling himself a Shihan (at least here in the us). Under who's authority can you stop him? Not through the courts. Your proposal that we the aikidoka should impose the authority ourselves... how? Through speech (tell everyone not to go there)? That's a lot of work and still people would slip through. Through physical means (aka violence)? We ourselves would be in violation of the law.

For better or worse, that guy has the constitutional right to call himself an Aikido Shihan. All we can do is educate and hope that a dedicated student will do their own work and find out the truth for themselves...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2006, 08:28 PM   #38
neaikikai
Dojo: New England Aikikai
Location: Boston
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 14
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

My Sensei used to tell us regarding these issues: Get on the mat and train. Aikido is not about dialog or conversation, it is about daily training on the mat. You have so much to learn, in my opinion this should be the last thing on your mind, it will only get in the way of training. The only way to understand and learn Aikido is on the mat, not by these kind of discussions, so train hard and often and let these questions take care of themselves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2006, 07:47 AM   #39
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Ted i think you have it backward as i understand it Tohei wanted to "add" all kinds of ki exercises and remove certain waza (which is what has happened in ki society)... we do the hop when appropriate and it is apporpriate when done...;-P

Clark, right on about politics and human nature... i just hoped aikidoka were a little more evolved... i used the US as an illustration not as a model

Mary i am NOT suggesting a standard curriculum that all MUST adopt, but rather an agreed core that can be added to but not abridged... Takemusu Aiki... don't we all do ikkyo?

Lyle as a poor ronin aikidoka i do NOT want to pay more dues, but i believe there should be some control of WHO gets to claim the authority to teach aikido

James i see your point but is fraud a constitutional right... It is illegal to claim to be a lawyer or a doctor(medical) or law officer if you are not... there are limits to freedom of speech...

Michael these questions have not taken care of themselves in the years since the split... and the saying about evil triumphing when good men do nothing jumps to mind... aikido is about fighting and training and that happens on and off the mat and is both physical and spiritual... do we allow the spirit to be tarnished because we don't care or think it is too diffucult(impossible seems to be the general consensus!)

I agree that there is only one aikido with many ways of teaching and approaching it...prospective students should do research, but what authority is there to appeal to for information?

I hereby proclaim myself 11th dan of the unified aikido movement (trademarked!) you are all under my jurisdiction now and will be assimilated... resistance is futile...;-))

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2006, 11:46 AM   #40
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,440
Offline
Re: Towards a unified Aikido ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
Clark, right on about politics and human nature... i just hoped aikidoka were a little more evolved...
Actually, we are. In fact, it takes the typical aikidoka a full five minutes longer to screw up a good thing than it does a "normal" person.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2006, 09:52 PM   #41
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

FIVE minutes??? oh well i guess i'm not as evolved as some other aikidoka...LOL

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 08:04 AM   #42
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
FIVE minutes??? oh well i guess i'm not as evolved as some other aikidoka...LOL
Edwin, but you are an 11th dan of the UAM (Tm), who are these more evolved aikidoka??

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 01:18 PM   #43
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

"Lyle as a poor ronin aikidoka i do NOT want to pay more dues, but i believe there should be some control of WHO gets to claim the authority to teach aikido"

That works well until I say you don't have the right.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 05:42 PM   #44
James Kelly
Dojo: Glendale Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 109
United Nations
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
James i see your point but is fraud a constitutional right... It is illegal to claim to be a lawyer or a doctor(medical) or law officer if you are not... there are limits to freedom of speech...
Of course, the guy can't claim to be a shihan of a specific organization he doesn't belong to, but he can create his own organization and call himself Shihan. Hell, I have a doctorate of theology from a mail order church (and can marry people in the state of Colorado). Every once in a while I toy with the idea of making everyone call me Dr. Kelly just for fun (my grandmother would be proud).

We once had a kid come into our dojo. He claimed he was 18, but couldn't have been more than 15 I think, and kind of chubby. Anyway, he watched for a bit (none of the Sensei were there) and then, when asked if he was interested in signing up, he explained that he had founded his own martial art (something with Ĺfu' and Ĺdragon' in the name) and was probably higher-ranked than our sensei anyway so why bother? He was really there looking for students for his new dojo. We smiled and said that was great and wished him well in his new endeavor.

I had totally forgotten that, but I have to say it was very funny and you know what...? good for him. He was a shmo, but he had chutzpa. I certainly wasn't walking into strange dojo and making claims of my martial prowess at the age of 15. The world is a better place for him and his claims (assuming he avoided getting his ass kicked by walking into the wrong dojo and is still alive).
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 05:49 PM   #45
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:

I had totally forgotten that, but I have to say it was very funny and you know what...? good for him. He was a shmo, but he had chutzpa. I certainly wasn't walking into strange dojo and making claims of my martial prowess at the age of 15. The world is a better place for him and his claims (assuming he avoided getting his ass kicked by walking into the wrong dojo and is still alive).
LOL

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 06:11 PM   #46
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:

Mary i am NOT suggesting a standard curriculum that all MUST adopt, but rather an agreed core that can be added to but not abridged... Takemusu Aiki... don't we all do ikkyo?
But we don't all do kotegaeshi, or koshinage, or iriminage, all of which I suspect most Aikikai students consider just as essential as ikkyo.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 07:34 PM   #47
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,632
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Aikido has been fundamentally an individual process from the very start. There is virtually no chance that is will come together in any coherent, organizational form. The desire for this to happen is simply the desire to simplify what can't be simplified, an attempt to fit the art into a comprehensible box... Can't be done.

What should happen, and there is no reason that this can't happen, is that we all simply treat each other with respect, stop maintaining that any of the Uchi Deshi had more of a take on Aikido than any other, start respecting our own home grown teachers as much as we respect the Japanesae teachers who come here to teach...

How many years in, in what, and with whom is the fundamental starting point to evaluate whether someone might be someone you wish to train with... Then you have to take their essential disposition and see if its a good match for you. As skillful as they might be, are they doing the kind of Aikido you wish to do? Finally, if you are looking for a Teacher rather than just deciding on what seminars to attend, is this Teacher modeling the kind of behavior you'd expect and will be happy with?

Given that these are the factors which people need to consider when deciding on who to train with and given that there are an almost infinite set of personal variabales on the part of the prospective students, there's no way that Aikido is going to come together eiether stylistically or organizationally... ain't going to happen. But we can all be open to each other's preferences and respect the fact that each of us will make his own choices about how and with whom to train. The more breadth of choice each student has, the greater the possibility that a large number of people will come to and stay in Aikido.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 08:27 PM   #48
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Quote:
Louis Tremblay wrote:
That said, I'm wondering why there aren't any effort put in unifying and consolidating all a´kido styles.

Unless you have copyright or trademark on the word or design "aikido," what business is it of yours how others use it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 11:57 PM   #49
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

sorry mark, inner secrets I cannot reveal my co grandmasters... but we are legion and mighty!
James that guy probably did get his butt whupped eventually...

this idea of unification seems to meet a lot of resistance and misunderstanding... i am not advocating stylistic or organizational "uniformity", but rather a way to insure that frauds do not hijack aikido... consider the following HYPOTHETICAL situation... some guy with no legitimate rank or affiliation with any organization such as hombu or aikikai or whatever... opens a dojo claiming to teach aikido... he and some of his students become a "gang" more or less and commit criminal acts... as a result legislators decide to ban the practice of aikido... this ruling spreads and hypothetically the entire state / country / world bans the practice of aikido... there is a thread under discussion about a possible ban of samurai swords in england... so in spite of the somewhat extreme case i am making it is POSSIBLE that something like this could happen... heres another one ... fraudulent aikido teacher claims "practical self defense" but a student dies in a self defense situation couldn't EVERY aikido teacher and organization be held liable? what if the frauds student killed someone in self defense and was found to have used unnecessary force ... again couldn't all teachers/organizations be held liable... just trying to make a point here no need to take these HYPOTHETICAL situations too seriously... don't WE (ALL) aikidoka of ALL organizations have a responsibility to protect ourselves, each other, and future students from frauds... can EGO's be put aside to have some kind of LOOSE, and comfortable unification that addresses the need for TRUTH with regards to people who claim to teach this art we all love...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2006, 03:52 AM   #50
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Towards a unified A´kido ?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Aikido has been fundamentally an individual process from the very start. There is virtually no chance that is will come together in any coherent, organizational form. The desire for this to happen is simply the desire to simplify what can't be simplified, an attempt to fit the art into a comprehensible box... Can't be done.

What should happen, and there is no reason that this can't happen, is that we all simply treat each other with respect, stop maintaining that any of the Uchi Deshi had more of a take on Aikido than any other, start respecting our own home grown teachers as much as we respect the Japanesae teachers who come here to teach...

How many years in, in what, and with whom is the fundamental starting point to evaluate whether someone might be someone you wish to train with... Then you have to take their essential disposition and see if its a good match for you. As skillful as they might be, are they doing the kind of Aikido you wish to do? Finally, if you are looking for a Teacher rather than just deciding on what seminars to attend, is this Teacher modeling the kind of behavior you'd expect and will be happy with?

Given that these are the factors which people need to consider when deciding on who to train with and given that there are an almost infinite set of personal variabales on the part of the prospective students, there's no way that Aikido is going to come together eiether stylistically or organizationally... ain't going to happen. But we can all be open to each other's preferences and respect the fact that each of us will make his own choices about how and with whom to train. The more breadth of choice each student has, the greater the possibility that a large number of people will come to and stay in Aikido.
Hear hear George, I couln't agree more, thanks.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Instructor got mad because I didnt fall actoman Training 192 05-02-2012 02:55 AM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:12 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate