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Old 01-19-2006, 12:38 PM   #1
Chiburi
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Reversals

I love reversals. Ever since I was five, when Kangas Sensei would fling us little children around. Good times.
So if you know any, please post them, as i'm trying to get togethor a big list for my dojo.
One of my favorite games is the one where you and your partner keep reversing the techniques, and the first to be pinned loses.
So please post the attack, and then the technique it's reversed to.
Long lists are welcome!

Shinma Hukumetsu
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Old 01-19-2006, 04:39 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: Reversals

Isn't anything potentially countered/reversed by anything else, based on the partner's relative positions/timing at the moment of reversal?

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:51 PM   #3
Zach Sarver
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Re: Reversals

Yeah, that is why you need such good timing and position in Aikido, too slow and the person can reverse it, too close or too far away and it can be reversed.
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:48 PM   #4
Mark Uttech
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Re: Reversals

I agree with janet, the possibility of reversal is always there. To build a good foundation though, it is better to not focus on reversals until much later on the aikido journey. It is better to focus on the kihon waza for the first 30 years. In gassho
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Old 01-20-2006, 02:53 AM   #5
Dazzler
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Re: Reversals

Yep ....reckon almost anything can be reversed unless its spot on (Zac has already said this..) .

I'm a bit reluctant to reverse an almost completed punch to the head with a headbutt to the fist though but even thats a last resort!!.

30 years? whose 30 years? someone training once a week or someone training as a full time deshi. Far too arbitrary for me there Mark.

Anyway...

Some more obvious reversals...

Ikkyo countered with ikkyo, kotagaeshi with kotagaeshi...I have a DVD of some old footage of Tohei Sensei using these as blending exercises.

Irimi nage countered with koshi nage. (Peter Brown (Leicester UK) has a couple of examples on his website if anyone wants to search for it. There are links to it in Aikiweb.

ai hamni katate dori Tai No Henka countered with udekemi nage.

Sankyo countered with ikkyo .....


and so on....(where thers a gap theres a reversal)

In practice there are times when you allow your partner to work and times when you resist or counter. Too much of either leads to either overconfidence in untested technique or out and out brawling.

I think the only limitation is our imagination...I look forward to seeing some more examples..If I like them I'll certainly try them out in class.

Cheers

D
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Old 01-20-2006, 08:33 AM   #6
Mark Uttech
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Re: Reversals

"too much either leads to overconfidence in untested technique or out and out brawling".... That is exactly the scenario I was thinking of when I mentioned 30 years of kihon waza as being prerequisite. Even in the Karate Kid films, Miyagi Sensei didn't bother with reversals or super samurai tricks. O Sensei has been quoted as saying: "Reliance on tricks will get you nowhere." Discussions of kihon waza are much more valuable than discussions of "how many reversals can you come up with, to dazzle your next class." I have another 8 years to go to reach the 30 year plateau myself.
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:04 AM   #7
Dazzler
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Re: Reversals

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I have another 8 years to go to reach the 30 year plateau myself.
Congratulations. You must be looking forward to the flash of enlightenment as suddenly all is revealed.

You think reversals are tricks?

Ok its an angle. Personally I prefer to see them as opportunities to expose weaknesses.

If there is no opening then there may not be an opportunity.

I agree fully that base is most important and such things are perhaps secondary.

If notables of the past such as Tohei chose to teach them, and contemporary teachers such as Pat Hendicks also incorporate reversals as "special Keiko" then I for one see no reason to wait 30 years to explore such practice.

I'd perhaps be more in agreement if you'd chose a technical level such as nidan or sandan ....but even then the variation can be so great between organisations to make this also meaningless.

I'd say its up to the judgment of an instructor as to whether kaeshi waza is included in a class or not.

Hopefully others will not be deterred from posting examples from their personal experiences which may or may not help those reading this thread.

Respectfully

D
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:20 AM   #8
akiy
 
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Re: Reversals

First off, I'd like to say that the term "reversals" seems a misnomer to me. When I "take away" someone's technique, I certainly don't "reverse" their technique. Redirect, perhaps, or take away their initiative, but certainly not a feeling of "put the car moving forward five miles per hour suddently into reverse." So, I'll use the term kaeshiwaza for now.

Personally, I don't see why kaeshiwaza should be held back from people for a long time. I think it's very much part and parcel of aikido training from day one -- as nage, aren't we looking for openings in uke's attack and taking advantage of them? The same sort of mentality can be employed by uke. As long as the same principles of aikido are being cultivated by uke and nage (eg no excessive muscling, no resistance by direct opposition, no one-upsmanship), working on kaeshiwaza can very much be an extremely valuable and enriching experience for aikido folks. I've seen approaches to aikido wherein kaeshiwaza was integrated into their training from the beginning, even within their kihonwaza. Frankly, I think if more people would accept the fact that they could very well be dumped on their butt as "nage" or that they could be cultivating the same principles of aikido as "uke" as when they are "nage," there would be more depth to their overall practice. I can say that I appreciate it when someone points out an opening in my technique by taking it away from me...

Once again, working on kaeshiwaza in this manner needs to be done in a manner consistent to the overall training method. This is no mean feat, especially due to the already existing training environments in most places where the roles of "nage" and "uke" are pretty much set in stone. I'm sorry to say that most of the time when I see kaeshiwaza being taught in aikido classes, it either seems contrived, forced, or counter to aikido principles -- probably since people have not been exposed to the idea until too late in their "I'm nage and that means you as uke has to fall down for me" approach. I'd rather see the possibilities being explored from an earlier point in people's training myself.

But, then again, all of this could just be me. Grain of salt, etc...

-- Jun

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Old 01-20-2006, 09:27 AM   #9
Mark Uttech
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Re: Reversals

I was not talking about keeping people away from kaeshiwaza, but rather keeping their focus more true. Many people who begin Aikido get all excited and quickly want to learn this and that and that. I guess even these things don't hurt, because people drawn by excitement disappear when the excitement wanes. In gassho.
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Old 01-20-2006, 12:16 PM   #10
Dan Herak
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Re: Reversals

My sensei just started a couple of us on kaishiwaza after we earned ikkyu ranks. For self defense purposes, kaishiwaza techniques are a bit unrealistic. You are more likely to employ aikido to avoid or deal with a drunken lout than an experienced aikidoka performing shihonage on you.

However, they are very useful in helping one better sharpen techniques' angles. They are also useful, and perhaps this is the same thing, in helping one hone one's timing, both in terms of when a technique is not really "completed" because someone can still get out of it, but also in terms of when one can apply a technique even if one is originally on the receiving end of something. My sensei has not only taught us a few kaishiwaza techniques but also has asked us to start with some particular technique, such as kaiten-nage and see for ourselves which counters we can come up with. Quite useful in thinking of the techniques in a more holistic manner.
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Old 01-20-2006, 12:26 PM   #11
Dan Herak
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Re: Reversals

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Once again, working on kaeshiwaza in this manner needs to be done in a manner consistent to the overall training method. This is no mean feat, especially due to the already existing training environments in most places where the roles of "nage" and "uke" are pretty much set in stone.

-- Jun
One further point as it relates to this. I cross train in an obscure system known as taihojutsu, which is what is taught to police in Japan. It is a mixture of various sytems including judo and juijutsu. So the concept of counters is something with which we are already familiar from these other arts but which is now being introduced in aikido. This is helpful as several counters are sacrifice throws which are more common in judo that in aikido. In fact, several of the counters we do in aikido are not techniques one would find in a traditional aikido curriculum. We are already fairly comfortable with these, both in executing them and, perhaps more improtant, being thrown by them.
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Old 01-28-2006, 02:14 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Reversals

An understanding of kaeshiwaza is fundamental to understanding ukemi. Ukemi is not about initiating and then taking whatever the nage dishes out. It might be that at the beginning level in order to teach proper falling technique but without an additional understanding of the point of uke's cooperation you end up with either a) uke's who are overly responsive and practitioners who can't do their stuff in a martial context or b) folks who think that resistance makes the practice more martial and no one ever discovers the "aiki" inside of Aikido.

It's kaeshiwaza that puts everything into proper perspective. When you have people training who understand kaeshiwaza, then both people in the interaction are doing Aikido; not one guy doing Aikido and the other guy acting stupid which is how much Aikido is practiecd, as if only one of the two practitioners knew anything. The uke / nage distinction is totally artificial. It is created for training purposes. No one goes into a fight thinking he's the "uke"... The Uke is simply the person who initiates the attack. Once the interaction starts, either one can throw depending on who gets the center first. If one attempts a throw without having kuzushi, a reversal or karshiwaza will be the result. The only way to do this well is to be so connected with the partner that when he leaves the smallest opening, the technique becomes the partner's in the instant.

This is why our ukemi is so cooperative... it is training you to stay connected so that if the opponent makes an error, you can instantly take his center. When done well you don't even feel it coming... everything seemed fine and then suddenly you are flying... This is why resistance is stupid and ultimately not martially effective.If I let you know your technique isn't working you will switch to something else before I can do my own, usually there wull be an atemi when they realize they don't have you yet. You want them to think they have you right up until the instant when they find they don't and you are throwing them.

I think kaeshiwaza should be taught very early rather than later just because it makes it clear why we should move with the parner's technique and not sumply stop it.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-28-2006, 02:40 PM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Reversals

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
"too much either leads to overconfidence in untested technique or out and out brawling".... That is exactly the scenario I was thinking of when I mentioned 30 years of kihon waza as being prerequisite. Even in the Karate Kid films, Miyagi Sensei didn't bother with reversals or super samurai tricks. O Sensei has been quoted as saying: "Reliance on tricks will get you nowhere." Discussions of kihon waza are much more valuable than discussions of "how many reversals can you come up with, to dazzle your next class." I have another 8 years to go to reach the 30 year plateau myself.
Kaeshiwaza as "tricks"? This just doesn't make any sense. Aikido techniques are simply about different ways to join with an attacker's energy by giving direction to that energy based on the different contact points of the two bodies when they come together.

A technique is just another way of putting energy into your partner's structure. Kaeshiwaza is just doing technique when the energy you are receiving comes in the form of an Aikido technique rather than the conventional attacks such as strikes and grabs. What do people think those grabs were supposed to be anyway? They represent the attempts to throw you by an attacker or to neutralize your ability to access a weapon... and just what is an Aikido technique? It's an attempt to throw the other guy and to prevent him from accessing or using a weapon. Either person can throw, of course...

The idea that this should be taught after thirty years of training makes not one iota of sense to me... Without kaeshiwaza Aikido is just a dance in which only one person is supposed to know the steps... Without an understanding of kaeshiwaza you simply do not have a martial art. Why would anyone wait "thirty years" before attaining any martial competence. This kind of thinking comes from an entrenched investment in the uke / nage dichotomy.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-28-2006, 02:48 PM   #14
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Re: Reversals

I'd say teach 'em once they get proficient with the techniques they're going to and from. Using one that Daren listed, Irimi nage to koshi; once irimi nage and koshi and are able to execute them both with consistency and overall goodness, combind them. But I'd say a "kaeshiwaza" situation isn't the time to be learning how koshi works, either nage's role or the ukemi for it, ya dig?

That being said, I'll go with an answer for the original post. I thought it was neat one my sensei showed going from irimi nage to, I think, kaiten nage. When nage's arm goes up to do the "clothes line" move, uke grabs the hand and moves under the arm. and ta-da!
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Old 01-28-2006, 03:53 PM   #15
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Reversals

I have to trust someone a bit before I will perform kaeshiwaza. It is the path to stupidity if I don't proceed with caution.
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Old 01-28-2006, 04:48 PM   #16
Edwin Neal
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Re: Reversals

this touches an area that i have issues with... advanced teachings or techniques... there is no such thing... you train in aikido not "some of aikido" from your first day... kaeshi is helpful in honing your technique and closing any openings or weakness... we play the kaeshi game but we don't go for pins we go for duration and creativity that way both people win and no one is a loser... you could theoretically kaeshi any technique with any technique... although some are more obvious than others... has any one seen a judo video of "i think kano" kaeshi-ing some really big judoka with koshinage... it looks crazy they seem to throw him and he just slides around and throws them... it is really amazing!... to end i think that kaeshi should be taught as soon as a student is ready for it and that depends upon the student...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-28-2006, 07:25 PM   #17
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Talking Re: Reversals

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:

The idea that this should be taught after thirty years of training makes not one iota of sense to me... Without kaeshiwaza Aikido is just a dance in which only one person is supposed to know the steps... Without an understanding of kaeshiwaza you simply do not have a martial art. Why would anyone wait "thirty years" before attaining any martial competence. This kind of thinking comes from an entrenched investment in the uke / nage dichotomy.

I first did reversals a few weeks before taking my fifth kyu test. Hows that for starting early?

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Old 01-30-2006, 12:18 PM   #18
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Re: Reversals

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote:
I have to trust someone a bit before I will perform kaeshiwaza. It is the path to stupidity if I don't proceed with caution.
It is absolutely true that you must be careful about where, when and on whom, you do ... It is especially dangerous to do it someone senior to you at a dojo or event when you aren't intimate with the people. There are quite a number of folks who will feel the need to pay you back after you've shown them an opening in their technique. In many dojos it's considered inappropriate to do kaeshiwaza no matter how horridly your partner executes his technique. It's seen as "competitive" and not very "spiritually advanced", a sign of "ego". On the other hand, I try to train my students to respond with "thankyou" if they get reversed since it gives them some valuable information about their technique.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-30-2006, 12:26 PM   #19
Edwin Neal
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Re: Reversals

we are losing focus... we are talking about 'learning' kaeshi waza... not being rude and just countering someones waza without any warning or in a competitive way... like all aikido you should learn it when appropriate if you haven't got ikkyo under your belt then the kaeshi is likely not what you should be learning...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-30-2006, 04:44 PM   #20
aikidoc
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Re: Reversals

I feel reversals serve as a useful teaching tool. When I demonstrate a technique and find students doing it improperly, I will usually use a kaeshi waza to show them how their improper application results in them now being uke. It helps get the point across.
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:21 PM   #21
MaryKaye
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Re: Reversals

We have some fluid continuous-reversals drills that are really good for learning the "feel" of ikkyo or sankyo, as well as the weak points in one's technique. I find this very valuable even as a junior student; I certainly see no need to wait till dan rank.

I have also had some vivid and wonderful learning experiences from reversals that occured spontaneously in pair practice, when both partners were comfortable with the techniques and happy to experiment. (It's unfair to do kaeshi waza with someone who is struggling with technique, and unwise to do it with someone who is aiming to "win.") In particular, a partner in a dojo where I was visiting opened my eyes to the whole idea that it's not over when you fall--if you retain connection you may still have many interesting options. She threw me; I held onto her and managed to unbalance her into a forward roll over my body; she in turn held onto me and used the mometum of her roll to turn me over on the mat and pin me. One lovely continuous movement. We were both laughing our heads off at the end. This is the sort of thing that keeps me motivated in my training--the growing ability to "play with the big boys/girls."

Self-defense aside (I'm glad to know it but hope never to need it) one of the great attractions, for me, of skill at aikido is just to be able to do this--to enjoy the rapid give-and-take of high level practice. The yudansha just look like they are having so much fun! That's what I've wanted from day one, and what keeps me coming back to class.

Mary Kaye
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:37 PM   #22
Edwin Neal
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Re: Reversals

exactly my point about kaeshi waza... it serves to tweak your waza, while at the same time increases your sensitivity/connection to uke, and you ability to flow from waza to waza as appropriate... it only does kyu's a disservice not to allow them to access this method of training... not for competiton, but mutual improvement...

Edwin Neal


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