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Old 01-19-2006, 07:14 PM   #26
Qatana
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
When I go to grab them I am already off balance. You know the feeling where you would rather not attack...cause of how nage feels??
Mary
Sometimes when Sensei is taking ukemi he'll say " I wouldn't Want to attack you" which I always find amusing as he is 6' 2 and I am 5' 3 and he Knows he can squash me with one little finger but I think he is commenting on nage's Presence.
We work with energy but we don't call it ki so I'm not sure its my ki he's feeling or if I am just able to project a "don't mess with me' attitude.
But then there's the times you look at the car next to you and the driver turns and looks you right in the eye, or vice/versa....

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:55 PM   #27
James Smithe
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

This is a perfect example of bullshido. Peter you're instructor needs to personally meet an experienced practioner in Aikido so he can beat his ass and see if can feel his energy. Dude get out of that school now it's total bullshido. Oh wait let me explain what bullshido is.
Bullshido+Bullshit =Bullshido. I would say bulldo but it's not as cool.
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:56 PM   #28
James Smithe
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

You don't have to give up Aikido just choose another school.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:45 PM   #29
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

I think it's really sad that so many people seem to think there's not much going on other than physics and normal nonverbal communication. I am a scientist by education and a left-brained, analytical thinker. Yet I am certain there is something else going on with "energy". I don't pretend to understand it, but I know it's real because of experiences I've had. And this is nothing to do with being brainwashed or tricked by my own expectations.

My most recent experience that was unmistakably related to "energy" was about a week ago in the dojo. My wrist was sore from being cranked on pretty hard, and I asked him if he would fix it for me. What I expected him to do was just rub it between his palms. What he did was simply put his hands around it and hold still, very gently with almost no pressure. After about 3 seconds my wrist and hand suddenly felt really hot, and simultaneously I felt an intense, pleasurable rush through my whole body. It was so intense that I actually swooned. I put my hand on his back, said "Oh my God," and almost fell down. Then he walked off. Wow. Just... wow. My wrist felt absolutely fine, and I felt sort of high for a few hours after that.

Now, that happened without me having any expectations about it. It took me totally by surprise. I've had several other intense experiences along those lines over the years. Go ahead and flame me if you want, but I'm a believer. I hope those of you who insist on reducing things to terms you already understand have the fortune to experience this someday, because it is a wonderful feeling.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:59 PM   #30
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

This is what you said.
Quote:
felt sort of high for a few hours after that.
I will assume you were high when you typed what you said above.
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Old 01-20-2006, 02:08 AM   #31
crbateman
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Shannon, I think you may have had a "kiatsu" experience. Tohei Sensei wrote a book years ago about it, and the book is still available from many sources, in case you want to read about it.
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Old 01-20-2006, 06:17 AM   #32
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

One time at a beginner's class the instructor demonstrated how we were to do tenkan from katate tori. A doubting, really angry kind of guy got up and grabbed my wrist really hard....as he grabbed I curled my wrist and extended ......he flew off and fell down. If I had not been there I would not believe it myself.
His energy felt really negative and he was so surprised. As were the insturctor and I...because it seemed like I did not do anything.
Mary
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Old 01-20-2006, 06:55 AM   #33
James Smithe
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Mary I think you're talking about something completely different from what the first guy was talking about. The first post was bullshido what you're talking about is believable.
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Old 01-20-2006, 07:45 AM   #34
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
Mary I think you're talking about something completely different from what the first guy was talking about. The first post was bullshido what you're talking about is believable.
Maybe James or maybe not......I don't have definite answers I just train and am open to possiblity.

Mary
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Old 01-20-2006, 08:22 AM   #35
DaveS
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Shannon Key wrote:
I think it's really sad that so many people seem to think there's not much going on other than physics and normal nonverbal communication.
Bear in mind that Erik's posts haven't flat out denied any possibility of something outside of physics and nonverbal communication, just stated that examples that he's seen in the vein of what the OP was talking about have actually been more consistent with this explanation than with the 'sensing ki' explanation. And that to explain things by a mysterious and hard to pin down 'energy' that can be explained more simply is at best unneccessary and at worst damaging.
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:33 AM   #36
Erik
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Shannon Key wrote:
I think it's really sad that so many people seem to think there's not much going on other than physics and normal nonverbal communication. I am a scientist by education and a left-brained, analytical thinker. Yet I am certain there is something else going on with "energy". I don't pretend to understand it, but I know it's real because of experiences I've had. And this is nothing to do with being brainwashed or tricked by my own expectations.

My most recent experience that was unmistakably related to "energy" was about a week ago in the dojo. My wrist was sore from being cranked on pretty hard, and I asked him if he would fix it for me. What I expected him to do was just rub it between his palms. What he did was simply put his hands around it and hold still, very gently with almost no pressure. After about 3 seconds my wrist and hand suddenly felt really hot, and simultaneously I felt an intense, pleasurable rush through my whole body. It was so intense that I actually swooned. I put my hand on his back, said "Oh my God," and almost fell down. Then he walked off. Wow. Just... wow. My wrist felt absolutely fine, and I felt sort of high for a few hours after that.

Now, that happened without me having any expectations about it. It took me totally by surprise. I've had several other intense experiences along those lines over the years. Go ahead and flame me if you want, but I'm a believer. I hope those of you who insist on reducing things to terms you already understand have the fortune to experience this someday, because it is a wonderful feeling.
Shannon, if you are really a "scientist" then you should know better....but, alas, some of the most easily fooled people over the years have been scientists...

By the way, I'm not saying you didn't experience the experience just that if you believe such a thing actually happened, think up a meaningful method of testing, repeat as needed, submit it to peer review, and put the topic to rest. If you are a scientist by training then you know that the standard is much higher than what you've just submitted.

Just for fun...

http://www.thewavemag.com/pagegen.ph...rticleid=23855
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:35 AM   #37
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
David Sim wrote:
Bear in mind that Erik's posts haven't flat out denied any possibility of something outside of physics and nonverbal communication, just stated that examples that he's seen in the vein of what the OP was talking about have actually been more consistent with this explanation than with the 'sensing ki' explanation. And that to explain things by a mysterious and hard to pin down 'energy' that can be explained more simply is at best unneccessary and at worst damaging.
Yup!
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:38 AM   #38
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

I ki blasted a guy last saturday.

Well, not really a "ki blast" but raising my eyebrow was enougt to stop his attempt of taking my bokken away from my hands.

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Old 01-20-2006, 10:57 AM   #39
James Davis
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

In my opinion, ki is just a different way of explaining proper technique to an aikido student. When your mind, body, and spirit are in alignment, that usually means that the bones in your hand are in proper alignment too. Personally, as an assistant instructor, I've had more success telling people how to extend their ki, than trying to explain physics and body mechanics to them.
Karateka have a better chance of sending that hand through a board if their mind, their intent, is on the other side. People can study our movements with slow motion photography and attribute everything we do to physics and body mechanics, but when I'm in the middle of randori I don't have time to think about it that in-depth...

...so I just extend my ki.

As for "feeling" an attack coming, I think that the original poster's sensei could have used different words to get his student to concentrate on the impending attack. When we still our bodies and our minds, when we stop all that blasted thinking, we open ourselves up to other things. It could be explained by something as simple as hearing their foot leave the mat, or a quick intake of breath when they step in to strike; Maybe it could be something different, something more. I don't know. The minute that I say I do know, the minute that I close my mind to possibilities, my aikido will suffer. Good luck to all of you.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:12 AM   #40
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Thanks for all the feedback. As an essentially rational, analytic person, I wonder: How do you explain that in double-blind scientific studies, religious people who ask God to heal them actually heal more quickly than non-religious people? (both groups have same diagnoses, same medical treatment, same level of disease, etc.)

My explanation is that we do not know everything there is to know about the human mind, although everything we know indicates that it is a powerful organ. Who knows what it can do?
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:22 AM   #41
Erik
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Peter Della wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback. As an essentially rational, analytic person, I wonder: How do you explain that in double-blind scientific studies, religious people who ask God to heal them actually heal more quickly than non-religious people? (both groups have same diagnoses, same medical treatment, same level of disease, etc.)

My explanation is that we do not know everything there is to know about the human mind, although everything we know indicates that it is a powerful organ. Who knows what it can do?
Placebo.

Not a bad thing, by the way, but not the same thing as an instructor shooting ki towards a student, which interestingly, not a single person has been able to meaningfully address.

Also please source those studies because prayer has had a abysmal track record when faced with actual rigorous scrutiny. Although some guy did write a book about it a few years back and my guess is that most people just extrapolated book == best seller == true.
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:39 AM   #42
deepsoup
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Peter Della wrote:
How do you explain that in double-blind scientific studies, religious people who ask God to heal them actually heal more quickly than non-religious people? (both groups have same diagnoses, same medical treatment, same level of disease, etc.)
You don't seem to understand what a "double blind" trial is - its not possible to conduct a proper one in this case, because the point of double-blind trials is to control for the "placebo" effect.

In a "double-blind" trial, there is a real treatment measured against a placebo (pretend) treatment. Neither the patient, nor the person directly administering the treatment knows which is which, hence "double blind".

This is necessary because patients who believe they're getting an effective treatment tend to experience some benefits even when they're not actually getting any treatment at all.

That explains why you can't double-blind trial the patients' own prayer - because you can hardly ask them to pray and not tell themselves that they're doing it.

It also explains why the religious people you mention experience some benefit, they believe they're getting an effective treatment. (Regardless of whether or not they actually are.) Placebo.

Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with a placebo - just because its fake medicine doesn't mean it can't have real effects.
Its a treatment that was actually often used before we questioned our doctors to the degree we do now. Back in the 50's it wasn't uncommon for British GPs to actually send someone to a pharmacist with a prescription for a placebo, and the pharmacist would dispense sugar pills.

Of course you can do a proper double blind trial where someone else prays on the patients' behalf. Its been done quite a few times, and shows that prayer has no effect.

How do you account for the fact that God hates amputees?

Sean
x

edit: Hey, Erik... SNAP!

Last edited by deepsoup : 01-20-2006 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:41 AM   #43
Erik
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
As for "feeling" an attack coming, I think that the original poster's sensei could have used different words to get his student to concentrate on the impending attack.
Well, I've got a second to post while things reboot here at work.

Based on what I read the teacher is not teaching his students to focus on an impending attack. I'm all for the type of study you described but this teacher had the students close their eyes and move wherever they moved based on what they thought they sensed. I've seen that stuff done before and it's just plain rife with opportunities for self-delusion because there are no controls on the experience. In other words, you can't "ever" know if you actually felt something because people will just start moving while imagining that they felt something. This, unfortunately, validates both the teacher's delusions and the students.

The only way to "know" is to engage the process in meaningful testing which is "never" done in this type of dojo, or frankly, any dojo.
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:42 AM   #44
Erik
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Damn you Sean!

I was saving that site for later.....

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Old 01-20-2006, 12:02 PM   #45
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

I suppose I should add that I agree there is a lot of "bullshido" out there, and that what the original poster described sounded pretty suspicious to me. But then again, I wasn't there.

I am really a scientist. I studied physics for several years, then cognitive science, then finally settled on meteorology, which is what I'm degreed in. I worked in a federal research lab for 4 years in a research position before I decided to switch paths again. And - I haven't gotten high via ingestion of substances for a long, long time.

I don't claim what I experienced would stand up to scientific standards of proof, nor do I feel it's important that it do so.
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Old 01-20-2006, 01:53 PM   #46
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
don't claim what I experienced would stand up to scientific standards of proof, nor do I feel it's important that it do so.
But your a scientist it's your job to do so.
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Old 01-20-2006, 02:30 PM   #47
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

What's your job? Are your required to do it when you're not getting paid?

RT

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Old 01-20-2006, 02:59 PM   #48
James Smithe
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

I'm saying he's a scientist he has to think logically about certain things. Jobs cross over into your normal life. My dad is an engineer. When something is broken in the house he automatically fixes it because he's trained to fix things when they are broken.
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Old 01-20-2006, 03:37 PM   #49
Janet Rosen
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
I'm saying he's a scientist he has to think logically about certain things. Jobs cross over into your normal life.
they CAN. but it is pretty presumptious to tell a person that he HAS to.
I don't see anything wrong with a person from any background having an experience and simply accepting it. The person who described it made no attempt to couch the description in religious or supernatural terms. Just described to the best of his abilities what he experienced. Come to think of it, that's how a lot of science starts :-)

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-20-2006, 05:26 PM   #50
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

I'm a "she", not a "he". Thanks.
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