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Old 02-21-2006, 01:15 AM   #51
mike valentine
Dojo: shin sen
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10
Australia
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Hey guys,

Haven't read yet anywhere on this forum or others that suggests that TFT is the be all and end all of martial arts,however i'm sure it has been pointed out that it is effective,maybe another tool in your arsenal which could save your life.Hell i've been involved in alot more than one bad situation,some lasting less than 3 hits and 1.5secs. some much longer and drawn out,but the same reality remains,the one who causes the first real injury usually wins.


Let's get one thing straight,the majority of people who train in MA don't do so to learn about real violence,they do so for competition,spirital reasons,fitness etc.Those things mean "Jack Shit" when confronted by a asocial menace.The most successful uses of REAL violence fill our prisons.The vast majority of these people have had zero MA training.So could i train someone with no experience to defeat a blackbelt in a month,well for a competition i would hope definately not,but for the real world,where there are no rules hell yeah.Do you honestly believe our fighting elite,be it Navy SEALS,SAS,Spetznaz,DELTA Force and so on train in hand to hand combat to blackbelt level,no they learn what works,how it works and what is most useful in a very short time frame.

Mike, as for the rape/mugged victoms you illustrated i couldn't agree more that you don't need to study TFT to poke out an eye,rip off an ear etc just the same as you don't need to be proficient in boxing to throw a punch but knowing how to do it properly takes alot of guess work out of the equation.


Just to reiterate some things i've discussed in this and previous posts,competition has absolutely nothing to do with violence.Violence is about destruction,period.

Jorx,i'm sure in a competitive enviroment my beautiful wife would be no match for you but in a real life situation you should never underestimate a truelly determined foe.Hell lose the googles,gloves,groin protection etc and i'll lie on my back,let you straddle me and simulate a rape,with very little strength i'll be the one LOL,you my friend will be seeking an E.R.In real violence THERE ARE NO RULES get it.That means no tapouts,submissions or count outs,just life and death.Untill you get your head around this concept you won't fully comprehend what TFT is about,so maybe your uninformed biased opions on the subject would best be kept to yourself.I could and should go on but can't be bothered.

Does TFT work,yes,i've used it.Will it save you every time,no,a bat to the back of the head will beat any system.Will TFT add another arrow to your quiver ofcourse and in doing so could just save your life.In a REAL confrontation there are no escapes,no rules or refs.it's you against them and it will get ugly,extra knowledge may get you home alive.

Hopefully this will hep some of you guys get it,if not your loss.

Regards

Mike V
Oz
Ps there are no light strikes or death touches,just full penetration and total commitment to the job at hand
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:23 AM   #52
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

i still am very skeptical, i won't put it in the same category as George Dillman/bullshido... i believe it is sound in some ways, but not new or revolutionary... the reason a few here seem to really 'get it' is because it is slick... it has enough 'truth' mixed in with the marketing to sell it... thus it resonates or rings true... most of the 'philosophy' is old hat for martial arts in general... see the first post the Osensei quote that started it all... then read the black belt article on the website... but more LOOK at the pictures... see the 'aikido' techniques... see how 'wrong' they are done/applied... particulary in the fourth page picture... how many distinct mistakes can you pick out of his 'ikkyo'? i was tempted to really go for it and give a very long and detailed critique of this, but i will try to restrain myself... let's be clear i believe you can learn some useful things from it in a short 'seminar', but nothing 'new'... for me certainly nothing i have not learned in my experience in martial arts and life, and better from some of my sensei's... my last point (for now) is how it lacks a coherent idea of defense... to use the sword analogy the first to cut wins... it is fine to sharpen your sword, but one must protect oneself or you will not be able to attack... the concept of blocks as a waste is flawed... every block is a strike, and every strike is a block is an old martial arts maxim... self defense is first about protecting yourself, that means not being injured... not just hoping that you can injure your attacker first and severely enough to protect yourself... you need a shield, too...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-21-2006, 02:47 PM   #53
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Edwin,

Thanks for your post.

As we know, Aikido techniques can be practiced, refined, practiced and then refined some more. The textbook ikkyo looks awesome. It is one of my favourite techniques (after shiho nage). That being said, to take someone's elbow past the pathological limit does not take years of practice, and it will not look the same as our beloved textbook ikkyo either. The idea of continual refinement lies in the arena of academia. It is unnecessary to perform 50,000 ikkyo to know how break an elbow. In fact it is very possible to perform 50,000 ikkyo and not know how to break an elbow at all.

Edwin, I think it would be a really valuable exercise for all of us if you were to go through that picture and point out all the technical ‘mistakes' from an Aikido perspective. Then, I could go through that picture and point out the one defining universal thing ‘correct' with it. This being that it will get an injury. Its not meant to look pretty, its meant to get results. Violence has nothing to do with looking good and everything to do with getting injury, in any way possible. There will be no panel of judges standing around when "IT" hits the fan to give you an appraisal of how well you did that ikkyo. No one will be there to give points for how good you looked. You, if fact any of us, will be happy just walk away alive. Most asocial monsters languishing in jail have never seen or even heard of ikkyo. Does that stop them from being effective? No. Most asocial monsters have less than 10min real time experience at killing. Does that stop them from being oh so good at it? No.

Ever hear the quote: "There is nothing new under the sun"? Violence is nothing new. The stone to the back of the head is nearly as old as the stones themselves, so to speak. Osensei does not have the patent on ikkyo. He did not invent ikkyo. Neither did the gentleman who taught him, and so on. Get my meaning?

Last point: Try and block a guy stabbing you with a shiv to the kidney. Now try and block another 60 or 70 attempts. As soon as he gets one in, he will certainly get another, then another. Someone will be lying in a pool of his own blood. I can guarantee it will be the guy who tried to block. See a target then destroy that target and then destroy another if need be. Then do any Aikido technique you want after that.

Thanks again.

Kristian.
Sydney.
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:08 PM   #54
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Let me try and explain TFT. Put simply it is a method of selecting specific targets on the human body, and by striking them in specific ways, elicit a specific trauma/ spinal reflex in response. Essentially this means that you can hit a target and get a base minimum response/spinal reflex from the person you hit 100% of the time.
It seems to me that the supporters of TFT are drifting from their own topic as I understand it. We are talking about criminals in prisons, moms, etc now and the violence and reactions to it.

I re-quoted the ORIGINAL message for Kristen again and stand by my post several posts back in reference to your own quote of this style. We aren't talking about violence about, we are talking about PRECISION STRIKING in a combat/violent situation with at least 1 or multiple attackers out to kill you.

In that situation, in my opinion, no one is going to land EVERY strike exactly where they want it. If you are well trained in TFT then yes, you have a good chance of landing a shot to a critical zone and ending the conflict. But like everything else, don't preach that when I'm attacked it's going to be this "1 strike bad guy fall down hype" either.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-21-2006, 07:02 PM   #55
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
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Australia
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Michael,

My name is Kristian. I spelled your name correctly. Please return the favor.

Yes, this topic has drifted hasn't it. Very good. I did try to keep it on track at first but now it seems that there is an awful lot to discuss. It would be un-natural to keep this topic railroaded. But yes, please stick to my initial post too if you wish.

I'm also glad you have the gumption to stick to your guns Michael. Good for you. I'm sure that given the opportunity to sit down face to face and have a discussion we would get on very well indeed. No preaching required.

Thanks again.

Kristian
Sydney.
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Old 02-21-2006, 07:48 PM   #56
Edwin Neal
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

function thus injury as you put it comes from performing the technique correctly... don't do it correctly and no injury, add to that the possibility of the attacker countering incorrect technique with 'injury' and you see that the proper form is imperative... his ikkyo is weak look at his pinky finger... i won't keep going for that is enough for the much desired resulting 'injury' to fail to happen, it leaves plenty of room for the attacker to resist and counter/escape... and gives the attacker back the initiative... blocking a 'shiv' and disarming or breaking (injury) the arm makes perfect sense according to your arguement if injury is the goal... again EVERY BLOCK IS A STRIKE AND EVERY STRIKE IS A BLOCK... this stuff borders on bullshido/cult status... just the price and the guarantee alone indicate to me that it is simply a new marketing strategy that appeals to folks who have a dislike/doubt of traditional martial arts type training... like i said it sounds good and correct, but that is not enough... it must BE correct, and i feel that while he does have some excellent points that i completely agree with overall he simply misses alot and make too many generalizations...
could we please stop conflating the terms violence=technique... when you say violence you mean punching, kicking, breaking, throwing... these are the techniques of violence and they are indeed intended to cause injury... same as in aikido... if the other guy is technically better at 'violence' then he will win... this is why it is important that the ikkyo be done fundamentally sound... thus your technique is better and you will cause injury... i will continue to point out more fundametal flaws in his ikkyo in future posts... bottom line if you don't do it correctly the chances of it actually working on a resistant attacker become less and less...
as for the shiv argument... if you don't agree with the block/strike idea... what 'target' do you destroy to keep him from stabbing you, what if you destroy your 'target' and he still stabs you?... if you do not control the weapon in some way how do you insure that you will not be stabbed? aikido gives the answer by simultaneous, counterattack (injury), evasion, and control... you need a sword and a shield and some good armor... multiple layers of protection or redundancy as we said in the navy... if your first response fails you must have a back up... simply repeating the same failed movement again and again won't do... attack, attack, attack just doesn't keep you from getting stabbed, but if it is combined with other complementary strategies/tactics ie defense then your chances improve...

It is necessary to develop a strategy that utilizes all the physical conditions and elements that are directly at hand. The best strategy relies upon an unlimited set of responses.
Osensei

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-21-2006, 08:09 PM   #57
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Michael,

My name is Kristian. I spelled your name correctly. Please return the favor.

Yes, this topic has drifted hasn't it. Very good. I did try to keep it on track at first but now it seems that there is an awful lot to discuss. It would be un-natural to keep this topic railroaded. But yes, please stick to my initial post too if you wish.

I'm also glad you have the gumption to stick to your guns Michael. Good for you. I'm sure that given the opportunity to sit down face to face and have a discussion we would get on very well indeed. No preaching required.

Thanks again.

Kristian
Sydney.
Kristian,
My apologies for mispelling your name; typos do happen occasionally and I assure you it wasn't on purpose.

I have no problems with the topic drifting, the discussion is definitely interesting even with the drift.

I merely steered it back in this direction because in your previous post you had made a reference back to your original post.

Should the opportunity ever present itself I think it would be great to be able to sit down and talk face to face and perhaps even get some training time in as well.

I love talking with and training with different people all the time. With new people come new ideas and new perspectives.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:11 PM   #58
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
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Australia
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Edwin,

Let me start by saying that I agree with your first point: "Function thus injury comes from performing the technique correctly…. Don't do it correctly and no injury." I see now that the point we don't agree on is simply that you don't believe the ‘ikkyo' shown in the picture would work because it does not accurately resemble an Aikido ikkyo, while I believe it will work because it is a base leverage 1 of the humeroulnar (elbow) joint. I believe that the movement illustrated in the picture will cause an injury and you do not. That is OK by me. We don't need to agree on this point or any point for that matter.

You mention that an incorrect ikkyo will result in the opportunity for a counter movement. Blocking and countering is a very dangerous game to play. This kind of tit for tat fighting lies in the realm of combat sport and has no relevance in the realm of asocial violence. "It is like playing a game of chess at 90m/h". The human brain cannot function at that speed for long. I would honestly say that to slam an elbow beyond the pathological limit, correct ikkyo technique or not, and you will get no counter attack.

"as for the shiv argument... if you don't agree with the block/strike idea... what 'target' do you destroy to keep him from stabbing you, what if you destroy your 'target' and he still stabs you?" In regards to the ‘Shive to the kidney' example: you do not need to break the arm to make the attacker non-functional. Gouge out his eye or break his patella and he will be equally non-functional. All targets are equal in the eyes of violence. He will be too busy nursing his injury to be stabbing anyone. Also, I did not say that anyone would walk away unscathed. The reality of violence is that "yes" we may still receive a puncture wound. There are no guarantees. After all no one is immune to violence. The sooner we act the less likely we are to be injured. The longer an engagement goes on, the more times someone tries to block, getting involved in the competition, "game of chess at high speed", the greater the risk of injury. Buy saying that you will control the stabbing tool so it will not touch you is to play this game of chess. It means that you are prepared to spend valuable time trying to tie up a hand, arm or weapon or even worse, wait for it and try and catch it in flight. The only real weapon is the central nervous system, which controls all the tools (hands, legs, shiv, club, gun etc). Effect control of this real weapon and all other tools become useless.

As your mantra states: EVERY BLOCK IS A STRIKE AND EVRY STRIKE IS A BLOCK. OK, what does that mean exactly? That to me is a response steeped in mysticism and is in itself evident to the cult status of Aikido and many eastern combative arts. Are you saying that to strike a strike is the best block? Or to block a block is the best strike? It is convoluted in its meaning. I could say that: "Every injury is a non-injury and every non-injury is and injury." To where does this logic lead? My guess is it may lead us to our graves.

Fiddling with this
And that technique
Is of no avail.
Simply act decisively
Without reserve!

Osensei.


Thanks again.

Kristian
Sydney.
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Old 02-24-2006, 04:20 PM   #59
RobertBrass
Dojo: Kingston Aikido
Location: Gardiner, NY
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Earlier in the thread there were some comments about sword vs. fist and I keep laughing thinking about Monty Python and the search for the Holy Grail. "it's only a flesh wound!"
"come back here or I'll bite your kneecaps off!"
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Old 02-24-2006, 10:31 PM   #60
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

I saw TFT advertised in a magazine a few years ago, and checked out the website, but never looked into it further.

In Karate Kid 3 (don't laugh), Daniel's evil sensei teaches him: If a man can't see a man can't fight. If a man can't breathe a man can't fight. If a man can't stand a man can't fight. I generally believe this, but there are never any guarantees.

One must possess knowledge of the weak points and the natural weapons of the human body, as well as the ability to pick out targets and strike accurately to be effective.
None of this guarantees that you will land all or any of your blows, as was pointed out earlier a resistive and aggressive adversary does not stand still with all of his vital areas exposed. Additionally, adrenaline, rage, and commitment can allow a human to take much more punishment than would be expected to stop them (also mentioned earlier).

There are many factors that affect the outcome of self-defense situations. Many of these we cannot control. This is why I put much value in the development of a calm, aware mind. Composure will allow one to do what is necessary. The Navy SEALs creed is speed, surprise, and violence of action. Using deception, creating the element of surprise, when all of the odds are against you these can be big allies. One thing I know is that the punch you don't see coming is the punch that KOs you.

The story posted by Larry Camejo in post #46 really illustrates the importance of taking the responsibility to protect yourself. The police could not have helped had they been called, and doing what the law enforcement establishment recommends, not resisting and giving the criminals what they want clearly failed. Self-defense is everyone's right and responsibility. Why modern society no longer feels this way baffles me.

I recommend that those who want an advantage over their assailant strongly consider carrying a weapon. OC pepper spray is very effective and causes no permanent damage, even if you have to continue fighting the attacker is now impaired. A handgun and tactical folding knife are also good companions. Of course, proper training is a must. I know many countries or states do not allow these weapons. What a shame.

Also, I don't think ikkyo is meant to injure the elbow, but rather to turn the attacker slightly and expose vital organs to knife or sword cuts.

Michael
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Old 02-25-2006, 11:28 AM   #61
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

I believe the "ikkyo" pictured could 'possibly' work and do the 'injury' that seems to be your mantra, but it is less likely to work than a functionally formed ikkyo... however injury does not in my mind mean the attackers stops... this is a possibility, but not a certainty...
"Blocking and countering is a very dangerous game to play. This kind of tit for tat fighting lies in the realm of combat sport and has no relevance in the realm of asocial violence."
this is exactly my point... a fight, whether in a ring or in a sd situation IS a dynamic situation that does involve alot of actions and reactions on both sides... even IF you break his arm, it is still possible that the attacker can continue to fight... this terminology that is being invoked 'asocial violence' just means fight... you and TFT are muddying the waters with these turns of phrase... it is no 'different' kind of encounter... it is a fight plain and simple... if you don't finish it then the other guy will... to finish it you must 'completely' control the situation and the attacker... you must completely defend yourself, and completely control your attacker... TFT reminds me of a young friend of mine who boldly stated at our first meeting "no martail art can stop me... i can knock anyone out"... he has had a change of heart since he has never 'knocked me out' and i have frequently choked or tapped him out... he like TFT makes one critical ommision...PROTECT YOUSELF AT ALL TIMES... if you don't then you could be taken out of the fight by 'injury'

"I would honestly say that to slam an elbow beyond the pathological limit, correct ikkyo technique or not, and you will get no counter attack."
"He will be too busy nursing his injury to be stabbing anyone. "

these are HUGE assumptions!!! anecdotal evidence shows us many situations where injury, even fatal injury, have not caused someone to stop and nurse their wounds... infact they often continued to act in spite of severe injury... thus as this is a fundamental tenet of TFT, and i believe a faulty assumption... TFT's strategy seems to be on shaky ground...

EVERY BLOCK IS A STRIKE AND EVRY STRIKE IS A BLOCK. OK, what does that mean exactly? That to me is a response steeped in mysticism...

sorry, not in my study of mysticism... i fail to see any mystic ideas in this statement... any strike/block has as it's intent BOTH causing injury to the attacker, and preventing injury to the defender... nothing mystical in that... your statement, "Every injury is a non-injury and every non-injury is and injury." is logically unsound...

you must be getting quite a bit of the money that this slick marketing scheme is generating... I invite those following this topic to note the exorbitant fee's that are charged for seminars... to so empassionately espouse it... my opinion still stands... it is slick marketing of enough good stuff to sell it, but too much bad stuff to be worth it...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-27-2006, 08:36 PM   #62
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Edwin,

Thanks for your post.

"you must be getting quite a bit of the money that this slick marketing scheme is generating... I invite those following this topic to note the exorbitant fee's that are charged for seminars... to so empassionately espouse it... my opinion still stands... it is slick marketing of enough good stuff to sell it, but too much bad stuff to be worth it..."

I have at no time been paid by anyone from the TFT group. The purpose of this post was and still is to stimulate debate and have a good time while doing so. I have been honest and open in my discussion and have accused no one of being dishonest or sneaky when they disagree with what I have said. It is a shame you employed this strategy Edwin. I have been enjoying our discussion this whole time and have had no malicious thoughts towards you. None of my comments or statements of fact have been designed to bring you low or discredit you. I do not get angry if people disagree with me. So, moving on…

The point of practicing TFT is to understand what violence is and how it works. We are not TFT'ing someone, we are doing violence to them. I find that this understanding is complementary to my studies in Aikido. To understand violence is to be better able to deal with it.

""Blocking and countering is a very dangerous game to play. This kind of tit for tat fighting lies in the realm of combat sport and has no relevance in the realm of asocial violence."
this is exactly my point... a fight, whether in a ring or in a sd situation IS a dynamic situation that does involve alot of actions and reactions on both sides... even IF you break his arm, it is still possible that the attacker can continue to fight….""

Yes, it is possible that the attacker may be able to continue to fight. The point of getting an injury is that it creates a window of opportunity to get another one. Once we have broken our attacker's elbow why would we stop? We would not. If we were smart we would get another injury…. then another…. until the attacker is completely non-functional. The point of getting an injury is so as to be able to get another, to get as many injuries as you need to be able to walk away knowing that the job is done.

"TFT reminds me of a young friend of mine who boldly stated at our first meeting "no martial art can stop me... i can knock anyone out"..."

I disagree with the first part of what your friend said. No one is undefeatable. "One punch-ten seconds" is a boxing term that comes to mind. I agree with the second part of his statement though. Your friend could knock anyone out. No one is immune to a punch to the head. If he lands one… then its time for catnap! No one is immune to violence.

"and i have frequently choked or tapped him out..." How long does it take someone to become unconscious from a chokehold? Lets say 3 seconds approx. That's one-one thousand, two-one thousand, tree-one thousand… I for one would have had my thumb in your eye after 1sec.

Another note to add to the concept of making someone submit. I have read a story about a man who was attacked by two assailants. Using his convincing ju-jitsu skills he knocked out one and made the other one submit. As the attacker "tapped out" our skilled man summarily released the attacker as he trained to do and was then stabbed repeatedly with a knife. You do what you train. This is the danger of combat "sport". When you are doing violence on someone for real you don't listen to tap outs. You do not train yourself to acknowledge even subconsciously the idea of releasing a submissive opponent. Social conventions are used frequently by these attackers to gain the advantage in such situations.

"you must completely defend yourself, and completely control your attacker..."

We can completely control our attacker by taking away his ability to do anything at all (walk, see, hear, breath etc). To use violence to defend oneself is a sound concept because when we perform a violent act, when we damage a human being and bring them to a point where they can no longer function normally then not only have we controlled them, we have also defended ourselves.

I look forward to an ongoing and civil debate with you Edwin.

Thanks again.


Kristian.
Sydney.
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Old 02-27-2006, 08:47 PM   #63
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Kristian,

Good post and I agree with most of it. One more thing to bring to the mix though is regarding the statement you made:

Quote:
Once we have broken our attacker's elbow why would we stop? We would not. If we were smart we would get another injury…. then another…. until the attacker is completely non-functional. The point of getting an injury is so as to be able to get another, to get as many injuries as you need to be able to walk away knowing that the job is done.
In most cases the law states you can only do enough "violence" to end the threat. Once you move beyond that it is no longer self-defense it is assult on your part. So if you break the elbow, then disloate the shoulder, then snap the knee and finally break the nose odds are that you are the one going to jail.

That is unless you are willing to leave your would be assilant lying in the street and walk away from the situation, which is what I did actually. I made sure he was "ok", he was unconsious; Then I left, called the police with an anonymous call that they might want to send someone to check on him.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-27-2006, 09:48 PM   #64
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
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Australia
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Michael,

I'm glad to hear about your success story. Sounds to me like you did the right thing. After all you are still alive. That is the most important thing.

There are many legalities involved with the "doing of violence". I am not familiar with them all. Needless to say that I would like to, if possible, make that annoymous call for the police to visit an unconcious assailant as well, if the opportunity should arise.

Regards

Kristian.
Sydney.
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Old 02-27-2006, 09:55 PM   #65
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Michael,

I'm glad to hear about your success story. Sounds to me like you did the right thing. After all you are still alive. That is the most important thing.
Kristian,
I agree and tell people all the time "The good encounter is the one that I am able to walk away from".

Hopefully it will never happen again for either of us.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-27-2006, 10:23 PM   #66
mike valentine
Dojo: shin sen
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Australia
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Mike,

I too have had similar situations of leaving beaten attackers broken and bleeding only to call them some help.However the legalities of using "too much force"never entered my mind when initially confronted by these foes.One strike that causes your opponent to fall and crack his head on the pavement can be just as lethal as reapeated stomping to the skull.Same result,death by fractured skull but vastly different method of arriving there.So for me self defence is about getting myself home safe and sound,you can't think of the consequences of your actions befor you do them as this could easilly get you second guessing yourself and inturn seriously hurt if not killed.

What i can say is just because you know how to really injure someone doesn't mean you need to.In fact learning the subtle differences between a "social" confrontation and an "asocial" one, will help you walk away from pointless engagements,it will also help you realise when it is time to act and when that time arises you must do so "now".

Regards
Mike V
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Old 03-08-2006, 06:13 AM   #67
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Kristian: "and i have frequently choked or tapped him out..." How long does it take someone to become unconscious from a chokehold? Lets say 3 seconds approx. That's one-one thousand, two-one thousand, tree-one thousand… I for one would have had my thumb in your eye after 1sec."

What are you trying to say? That someone is going to thumb me while I choke them (let's not go there how I ended up doing a choke in a streetfight anyway)? That's why you have different tactics in a streetfight... I always hide my head anyway. I had an ex-Sepc-ops guy try to grab and break my fingers and reach for my eyes when I choked him... he couldn't. The head and fingers were hidden as they should be. Also I for sure COULD have heelkicked him in the groin. But it was a friendly grappling match He just resorted to dirty tactics when he was stuck. I did not expect it yet was safe.

The delivery system is developed in competitive setting.

Mike: Jorx,i'm sure in a competitive enviroment my beautiful wife would be no match for you but in a real life situation you should never underestimate a truelly determined foe.Hell lose the googles,gloves,groin protection etc and i'll lie on my back,let you straddle me and simulate a rape,with very little strength i'll be the one LOL,you my friend will be seeking an E.R.In real violence THERE ARE NO RULES get it.That means no tapouts,submissions or count outs,just life and death.Untill you get your head around this concept you won't fully comprehend what TFT is about,so maybe your uninformed biased opions on the subject would best be kept to yourself.I could and should go on but can't be bothered.

(Un)fortunately one CAN NOT PRACTICE life and death. And all "trying" to do so remains fake at all times. Therefore it is best to find a best alternative with minimal rules yet minimal acceptable injury rate and practice that.

I have been in a "dead" MA setting for over 6 years. Whatever the form is if the core is cooperative practice it will always be non-functional.
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Old 03-09-2006, 12:03 PM   #68
Roy Dean
 
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

"Violence is about injury. Period. Joe smith can use violence just as well as any highly trained martial artist because violence does not use strength, speed etc as a means of domination. It uses destruction. When Joe smith gets an injury on our highly trained martial artist (lets call him "Barry"), then suddenly there is no more competition. Barry is now just a man with an injury. You are talking about a competition between skill in martial arts and no skill."

I just can't get over this statement. Attributes (power, speed, flexibility, timing, etc) are what make techniques effective. Violence doesn't use strength or speed as a means of domination? I would venture to say that a violent act is MUCH MORE easily thwarted if it wasn't fueled by strength, speed, aggressiveness, and killer instinct.

If a martial artist is highly trained, then it is quite possible to keep going after an injury. I've done it, several times, and if you take a look at the last UFC, middleweight champion Rich Franklin fought 4 rounds with a broken hand! And had a dominating performance. Heart and toughness, for both him and his opponent, David Loiseau.

And eye gouges against rear chokes are a VERY POOR method of escape. Largely ineffective, and the time would be better spent trying to improve your position. After all, if you're in that inferior position, eye gouging will likely tick off your opponent to the point where now he'll want to do a face choke, breaking your teeth and jaw.

My 2 cents.

Roy Dean

www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com
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Old 03-10-2006, 03:01 AM   #69
Jorx
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Excellent point Roy. You guys speak of violence as it would be some kind of separate entity.

Talk about Mike Tyson ear-biting violence vs. Mike Valentine's wife's eye gouging violence...
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:36 PM   #70
mike valentine
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Hey boys and girls,

I don't seem to recall anyone mentioning "eyegouging", if you are going to just gouge the eye not only will it serve to(as Roy pointed out)piss your attacker off more it really gives you no advantage.It's a completely different story however if you completely destroy the eyeball,jamming your fingers or thumb through the eyeball itself upto your second knuckle.Now you have a foe more concerned with dealing with his ruptured eye than applying that face choke.I'm sure there's people out there who could continue on with this devistating injury,though as yet i've never meet one.

Roy,"true" violence has nothing to do with technique,sure it can help you get the job done more efficiently whilst looking good but it doesn't take much training to hit someone across the skull with a tireiron or baseballbat.Being fit,strong and well trained in any MA won't help if you're shot multiple times in the chest or runover at high speed by a pickup truck.Intent is needed,or that killer instinct and aggressiveness of which you speak,no one denies this, but clearly you don't need to be trained to REALLY hurt someone.

I to have fought many times with injuries(broken knuckles,ruptured ear etc) and gone on to win but none of these fights have been in an "asocial" experience.The UFC has rules,it is a competition,this has nothing to do with a real "asocial"enviroment.Jeff Fenech a three time world boxing champion fought most of his fights with two broken hands.Is he tough and have a big heart,hell yeah i know this from personal experience,does that mean he would get up after having his trachea ruptured,of course not.My scariest moment during a confrontation came after hitting a man in the side of the neck and watching him fall like a bag of potatoes,of all the many altercations i've been in this was the only one where i knew it was truelly me or him,thankfully he survived but my true intent at the time was to end him.

Jorx,violence and competitive sport are two entirely different entities.If by now you don't or refuse to get it maybe you never will.Real violence is about one thing and one thing only DESTRUCTION,competition is about winning within a set of rules.You seem to be very well read on various MA and judging by your previous posts on this and other subjects seem to enjoy giving others the opion that you are some "demigod"of all things martial, i for one don't buy it.It appears that anything that doesn't fit into your own realm of training or understanding can't be any good,please tell us again how all the top Kung-fu guys etc.in your neck of the woods are training in what you are now.I on the other hand would rather wait untill i know first hand what works and what does not befor denigrating it as folly.There is something to be learned from all MA,take what works for you and disregard the rest(i'm sure someone of known ability had that same idea),if you continually keep your head buried in the sand someone will eventually kick you in the arse.

Just a few facts: Many of your beloved former and current UFC competitors have and do train in TFT.and are friends of the founder Tim Larkin.
The U.S military be it S.E.A.L.S Delta Force etc.use this stuff as do many of there Police Departments.
I personally know this stuff works.
Obviously you Jorx have absolutely no idea of the training methodoligies used in TFT and are stuck on the notion that it won't work,thats cool i was young once too and thought i knew it all,hope you're never confronted by a real "asocial" threat cause your arrogance and bravado may get you hurt.Monsters won't tap or play by any rules.

Just remember guys "that you do what you train",it's about subconcsience muscle memory when the shit really hits the fan.While you might believe you can go from one mindset to another in the middle of a "true confrontation" you would be sadly wrong.Those moments of hesitation when changing mindset could get you seriously hurt if not killed.

Regards
Mike V
Ps Mike Tyson's ear bitting v's my wife's thumb in the back of your eyesocket(note:not a gouge)hell i think i know which would be a more devastating injury,Evander could continue to fight,didn't need urgent medical attention, so was it a "real injury",i think not.Try boxing with your pupil runing down you cheek.Maybe some of you guys will never get it.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:25 AM   #71
Jorx
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Can you give me an explanation how you train shoving your finger up to the second knuckle in someones eye? How do you program that subtle muscle memory for that movement? How do you "train" violence?

I brought you an example how Vunak's guys train live grappling with stakes tied to necks so they can actually practice biting a neck of someone resisting and ACTUALLY tearing out a piece of meat. Not a very sane method in my eyes but I can clearly see that one learns an actual skill that way.

What do you do? To me it seems that you do prearranged patterns. Please, show me wrong - because my knowledge about TFT is superficial - only from websites and your talk here.

I'm no demi nor quarter god of all things martial. I just think that to aquire any skill one must train against the physical resistance the situation gives to you. And the more "fundamental" or "core" this resistance is the more functional the skill and the details can be easily added. However if this core is missing - no matter how fine and real details you practice you never get the actual skill.

It's like... to me the sport and gym setting is like a lab in science. Is the lab setting the same as real life? No.. however in lab we learn and discover things about the real world because that is the best "hard science" method we yet have.

And please do not fall into calling names and using demagogic sentences like "Please tell me how all best kung-fu guys are training in what you train now." There are people who can't read and believe Earth is still flat too. There are many people who believe blowing themselves up with others will get them to heaven to drink wine and be served by young beautiful women. Has this ANY relevance to this what we are talking about now? No.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:33 AM   #72
Jorx
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Oh and can you give out ANY names of these current and former UFC competitors so I could check that?
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Old 03-11-2006, 12:10 PM   #73
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Mike Valentine wrote:
Being fit,strong and well trained in any MA won't help if you're shot multiple times in the chest or runover at high speed by a pickup truck.Intent is needed,or that killer instinct and aggressiveness of which you speak,no one denies this, but clearly you don't need to be trained to REALLY hurt someone.
So TFT training will protect me and keep me alive while I get shot multiple times in the chest and runover at high speed by a pickup truck while Aikido won't.

Quote:
The U.S military be it S.E.A.L.S Delta Force etc.use this stuff as do many of there Police Departments.
And yet police offiers and military special forces personel still die every day in confrontations just like trained martial artists.

Quote:
"asocial"
Definition - someone who does not conform to the social norm. Make sure you kill the high school girl with her nose and eyebrow pierced. Let's quit try to use cutesy words and stick to the basic context here, an attack on the street.

Quote:
Just remember guys "that you do what you train",it's about subconcsience muscle memory when the shit really hits the fan.While you might believe you can go from one mindset to another in the middle of a "true confrontation" you would be sadly wrong.Those moments of hesitation when changing mindset could get you seriously hurt if not killed.
So when you train you shove your finger to the 2nd knuckle in your partners eyes. You throw full contact blows to the throat and crush their windpipe. You break elbows and knees. You throw full contact blows to the groin. Must be hard to find regular training partners I would think?

Yes, I'm being somewhat antagonistic in my points I'm making. But having read most of the website and most of your posts, you're not preaching anything I have already heard and learned in more than martial arts dojo and I'm sure that is the case for many people here.

Street survival is about a mindset more than training in my opinion. If you have the mindset that you are willing to take a human life, no questions asked, if it comes to that point you're ok. It doesn't matter if you studied Aikido, TFT, or nothing at all, a survival instict will kick in and take over. However, a lot of people can not handle the thought of seriously injuring or killing another human being no matter what the circumstances. Those people will die no matter what training they have had.

Just my opinions on a Saturday morning. Take them for what they're worth and your mileage may vary.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 03-12-2006, 05:14 PM   #74
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Michael,

Great post. Thanks again for your thoughts. I'd just like to say again:

"No one is immune to violence."

TFT, Nin-jitsu, Aikido or whatever is not going to change that.

Jorgen,

You said:

"I had an ex-Sepc-ops guy try to grab and break my fingers and reach for my eyes when I choked him... he couldn't."

Can we have a name of this guy? My cousin's best friend had an ex-girlfriend whose uncle was an ex-spec-ops guy! Maybe it's the same guy?!? Ha Ha Ha. Sorry Jorgen, I could not resist. I'm just having fun. No offence intended.

I have a sneaking suspicion that most spec-ops guys would have you waking up dead somewhere before you knew what happened, if they were serious. I would also hazard a guess to suggest that if he had not engaged you in a "social" or competitive test of strength to see who's techniques were better then he would have come out with the nasty stuff first. Obviously I don't know this ex-spec-ops guy you are talking about but chances are he did not live to be an "EX"-spec-ops guy by being crap at his job. Think about it for a second Jorgen.

Because we are having a few problems with terminology here lets look at a few meanings:

Social Violence: This is a form of violence where the aim of the violent interaction is to communicate something. Eg: "That is my girlfriend, don't look at her." or "I am the dominant male here. This is my territory. Go away!" or even: "My martial arts ability is better than yours. Lets fight under some rules and guidelines so that we do not seriously injure each other in order to work out who is stronger and/or technically better."

Asocial Violence: This is a form of violence where the sole purpose of the interaction is to bring all communication to an end. There is no communication. It is one person doing violence on another to satisfy some urge, craving or desire which the asocial person may be experiencing at the time (or even simply to do a job, as is the case with an assassin). The purpose of asocial violence is to rape, cause serious injury or kill.

This discussion is proving to be a hell of a lot of fun. My thanks goes to all those who have taken the time to post so far.

Regards.

Kristian.
Sydney.
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Old 03-13-2006, 02:19 AM   #75
Jorx
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Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Kristian: please answer the following questions what I asked:

1. How do you train shoving a finger up to 2nd knuckle in someones eyesocket?

2. How do you train this "asocial violence" and responding to it with "more asocial violence" in a training setting?

I live in Estonia so this guy is noone you know. If you want to investigate this line further I'd prefer to do it in private messages.

I do not question the fact that if we had an all-out encouter there's a good chance I get my ass kicked or I get killed. Especially if he would attack me so that I'd be unaware of it. I was just pointing out that I have had experience when I am already on someones back and choking and he goes for my eyes and fingers and I was safe. The example was to illustrate position over technique approach - the back position is superior for anything - choking, heelikicking to nuts, gouging the eyes. Therefore in my mind as I am the labelled the "sport" guy here it should be that for example most of the time training you should spend getting to superior position. And that remains the same through sport grappling setting -> mma setting -> pure vale tudo setting -> self-defence setting. If you (in the same order) from there try to choke -> punch -> elbow to the spine -> gouge eyes is more of a MINDSET not technique thing. Same thing in standup striking and clinchfigting. I want to develop myself a strong ACTUALLY working delivery system on which I can base any techniques.

And please do not start with "I wouldn't want to go to ground blah blah..." the back position thing was an example.
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