Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-17-2006, 07:43 PM   #26
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Nice quote.

Can I borrow that Jorgen?

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2006, 07:52 PM   #27
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Jorgen,

The empty hand or fist can injure such a large number of anatomical areas that your point is somewhat moot. The things that a sword can do, that the fist can not do is:

1. Cut and stab(penetrate)

2. Accelerate trauma/injury.

A sword is only a tool, just like a hammer or a screw driver. For that matter a screw driver will also make a weak point of the entire human body, just a sword does.

The only real weapon that needs to be disabled/ taken away from any attacker/asocial threat is the brain. Once you destroy or interrupt the normal functioning of the central nervous system and have made the individual non-functional, then and only then, is the threat removed.

Regards

Kristian.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2006, 08:22 PM   #28
mike valentine
Dojo: shin sen
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Ron,
The accumulation of other shots to nonspecific targets had no bearing on Delahoya being dropped.The shot that stopped him wouldv'e done so in round one or round twelve,it just took eight rounds for Hopkins to land a strike which caused a real trauma,Delahoya wanted to get up but his body wouldn't let him.

Jorgen,
I do believe i stated ruptured testicle not ripped off,you don't have to be naked to have your testicles ruptured.What i was trying to get across was that there is no best target or way of ending a fight,you have to use what is available at the time.Glad to see that you are training in other forms,as i stated before i've been boxing since i was 10(some 23 years) and have trained with and alongside some of the worlds best,i know what it's like to be in a hostile enviroment so maybe that's why i can see the true merit in tft.Never have i said that tft is the greatest thing invented,only that i know it works.It sure is different to anything else i've encountered(and i've been involved in alot of different arts),it's not about beating your opponent or getting him to tap out it's about ending him.I see Jorgen that i've been training for as long as you have been alive(born 1983)so i think i may know the difference between hype and bullshit.If ever i'm in Estonia i'll be sure to look you up for that beer and vodka,you can keep the cider,juice and milk.

Regards
Mike.V
Oz
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2006, 08:52 PM   #29
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Now that I've actually read the thread, imo if one is striking and not targetting then one is flailing out in false hope. Reminds me of something Musashi wrote about "striking" and "hitting" - one is deliberate and calculated, the other is luck.

Imo the placement of one's atemi in Aikido should ALWAYS be deliberate and precise, nothing less is required imo. And from an Aikido p.o.v. this is not about trading blows either, but selecting the one that maximizes effect based on the movements of those involved and the closing of distance.

In every effective striking method I've experienced, including Aikido atemi, one selects the target for maximum effect based on movement, openings and opportunity.

What I like about TFT (from what I've read) is that it attempts to always select a critical target on which to land each successive strike, but to me this should be obvious to any thinking striker. From what I've read on TFT from their mailing list over the past 2 years a lot of people appear pleasantly surprised by the simple efficacy of the method, which is great. But imo it is just that - simple - if you approach conflict from the right angle.

What it sounds like to me is that a lot of these folks may have known how to hit, but not how to strike, going back to the Musashi note above.

Just my 2 cents. If it works for you, then use it.

Tran hard, train smart.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2006, 10:35 PM   #30
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Imo the placement of one's atemi in Aikido should ALWAYS be deliberate and precise, nothing less is required imo. And from an Aikido p.o.v. this is not about trading blows either, but selecting the one that maximizes effect based on the movements of those involved and the closing of distance.

In every effective striking method I've experienced, including Aikido atemi, one selects the target for maximum effect based on movement, openings and opportunity.

Tran hard, train smart.
LC
If you look at the atemi-waza of Aikido syllabus, you can see pretty TFT'esque striking. For example:
1) Shomen-ate is a strike to the chin or throat.
2) Aigamae-ate is a possible strike to the temple or jaw
3) Gyakugamaeate-ate is a strike to the jaw or chin
4) Ushiro-ate is a strike to the neck, e.g., transition to hadaka-jime (if used with jujutsu method)
5) Gedan-ate is a strike to the knees, ankles or pelvic bone.

I totally support Larry's notion that aikido is not about trading blow for blow. Each technique is a potential fight-ending technique. Aikido atemi-waza syllabus always teaches us the proper placement of our hands, proper alignment of our body structure to deliver optimum power, foot placement for maximum stability, etc. These are all required ingredient for a proper strike.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 01:12 AM   #31
mike valentine
Dojo: shin sen
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Finally some of you guys are getting it.I'm sure Musashi did.

Mike.v
Oz
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 05:08 AM   #32
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Larry: sure.

However even if you are most confident that TFT works, you both (Mike, Kristian) have extensive backgrounds in arts which extensively involve fighting against non-cooperative opponents.

If a person with zero training sees this TFT website, takes some seminars/videos/trains for couple of months and this builds up confidence. That confidence could vey well get HIM killed. And to me that's not "making money". That's a crime. And that's lying to people.

You see one HAS to find methods to evaluate the system... e.g. Paul Vunak has come to this that they train very nasty thing as biting against a live resisting opponent who has a STEAK tied to the neck. I mean to me that's yucky and I wouldn't want to bite anyone in the world of today nor I would not want to practice it but they have their thing down!

I do not question the possibility of getting certain "pain reflexes" of hits to throat, liver, carotid sinus, solar plexus, groin etc. But I very much doubt the possibility of actually pulling these shots off against a resisting opponent when practice is cooperative.

And when a technique is SO deadly that this method of evaluation can not be created... then I think it should be excluded or left for the latter (5+) years.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 11:37 PM   #33
mike valentine
Dojo: shin sen
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Jorgen

There have been many documented rapist/murderers convicted on the strengh of DNA evidence,some of this DNA of the perpitrator has been taken from under the fingernails of there victoms.Funny thing is that when the assailant has been arrested the police have found him to have deep scratches on the face above and around the eyes.This would suggest that while fighting for her life the victom,rather than just poking and scratching indiscriminately could have focused on putting her fingers into the rapists eyes.Obviously this cannot always be carried out but if you are leaving marks on your attackers eyebrows you are only one inch from taking out his eyeball,then hopefully giving you a chance to get away.Most of us in our civilised world wouldn't think to do this but as barbaric as it sounds and is,if this knowledge saves my wife or loved ones tft is cheap at half the price.
I personally have shown my wife and some female friends(none of which have had any training in martial arts)some tft stuff which i hope they never have to use but i'm happier they have the knowledge than not.Do i think you can train a person to be a killing machine in a weekend with a few DVD's to watch,of course not, but you can give that person a real chance of surviving a ASOCIAL threat i.ene in which your attacker ignores all social concepts,he is there to seriously hurt you if not kill you.In my experiece learning this stuff has pushed more people away from getting into fights over trivial matters,a spilt beer,a girl,a traffic dispute etc.they are social altercations which you can easily walk away from but which form most of the violence on our streets however what price the knowledge of how to save your life if and when the shit truly hits the fan,i don't think you should have to devote 5+ years of your life to training in order to gain some skills which could save your life.

Let me reiterate,training in tft is not a sport,it's not about points or tapping out,it's not about looking good when delivering a strike,it's about using violence(real violence)when there is no other option.Can a novice learn enough of this stuff to save his life absolutely,the hardest thing is getting your mind around what REAL violence is and becoming comfortable with it, if that is the only thing which will save you.Hey i know this is not really in the Aiki spirit but i'm having a hiatus from Aikido at present as something was missing,i've gone back to my roots to train in stuff i know works.

Regards
Mike.V
Oz
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2006, 02:15 AM   #34
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

There have been many documented rapist/murderers convicted on the strengh of DNA evidence,some of this DNA of the perpitrator has been taken from under the fingernails of there victoms.Funny thing is that when the assailant has been arrested the police have found him to have deep scratches on the face above and around the eyes.

Mike - I think the target WAS eyes... it's just the attacker can do enough to protect them (enough). Close them, wiggle, RESIST. But that's just MY first thought.

And I absolutely agree one shoudn't devote 5+ years of his life training with "unarmed SD mindset". That's why philospohical mindset (e.g. Aikido) or sport mindset (e.g. whatever combat sport) is in my opinion THE way to go as they offer benefits instead of false security and paranoia AND if you choose and train wisely you will also get the benefit of SD skills without having to constantly have the SD mindset.

I would love to spar your wife and her friends (LOL) with let's say... groin protection and goggles and boxing gloves. A neutral observer could count the times I get hit in those places. Just bullrush them and try to keep them on ground while simulating a little punching and choking. I'd like to see how well they do. Maybe you could get one of your friends who is unfamiliar with TFT to do it... Anyway I can not see why not implement resistance training. Especially for women.

Just using VIOLENCE against violence... to me it seems that bigger violence prevails That means really... a female might go berserk and start attacking all those soft spots and yes that might shy away an unconfident rapist but that's not the point is it? IMHO to be successful against a larger attacker one has to have a MUCH better delivery system (directly in correlation with resistance training mat hours) no matter are the techniques eye-pokes or armbars.

And about false confidence I did not mean getting into pointless confrontation but was something more along the lines of taking subconciously choosing a latenight walk home from bar through a dark park instead of taking the cab.

Sorry... cannot talk more have exam coming up in 2 hrs. I'm glad this discussion has turned for the good again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2006, 07:13 PM   #35
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Hi Everyone,

The topic is drifting a little. But that is OK. I knew when I posted here initially that the debate would evolve. Just check out the first post if you need to…. anyway, moving along.

Has anyone heard the quote; "You do what you train"?

Some of the many purposes of Aikido training include:
1.Spiritual development.
2.Self defence.
3.Continuing the legacy of osensei.
4.Peaceful resolution of violence.
5.Non-harm of your attacker.

The one and only purpose of Target Focus Training is to injure the human body, to use violence as a tool. By injury I mean the kind of injury that will need, without question, medical attention or a mortician.

Obviously this sits at the extreme opposite end of the scale to where Aikido (The Art of Peace) resides. This being said, there are some Aiki terms, which relate to what TFT is about. One such Aiki term is "No waiting". The belief in TFT is that if you wait for your aggressor to attack, so as then to assess the situation and decide which technique to employ, then you have left it too late. I agree with this statement. TFT means to act first, get the injury and keep on injuring until the threat is removed.

As I've learned from a reliable source: Superior speed, will power and technical knowledge is all taken away by a thumb driven through the eyeball, and I mean right through to the back of the eye socket. YUK!

The purpose of my initial post, which was reiterated by Jon Reading, is to get answers to the following questions:

1. Is precision striking effective in fights?
2. Does anyone have feedback on precision striking systems, such as TFT?

Thanks again for all the great responses so far. Keep it coming.

Regards

Kristian.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2006, 04:20 AM   #36
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Okay... in many ways this TFT seems to remind some Wng Chun schools - the concept of taking the iniciative, attacking (physically) first, injuring and continuing injuring putting the original aggressor under a pressure of continous violence until he is finished. Fast and "light" attacks to vulnerable areas such as (knee)joints; groin; solar plexus; throat; eyes etc. Elbows to the back of the head etc...

Did I mention all of those guys who did these systems (one was the head instructor for the COUNTRY!) do BJJ and boxing and wrestling now?

"As I've learned from a reliable source: Superior speed, will power and technical knowledge is all taken away by a thumb driven through the eyeball, and I mean right through to the back of the eye socket. YUK!"

How do YOU know? How do YOU know it works for YOU? Do YOU trust the source enough to make YOUR life depend on it?

I KNOW my takedowns work. I KNOW that I can knock someone down with a punch to the solar plexus because I have been doing them against different people who DID NOT want me to do those things.

In sport MMA people have got kneed in the head while shooting for a takedown, finished the takedown, started the gound and pound. Doctors examination later revealed multiple skull fractures.

Of course people have also taken accidental shots to the groin and were unable to continue the fight BUT people have also been able to continue right away (the referee was at the blind angle) recover and reverse the fight.

Remeber there was also a time in sport-mma when it wasn't a sport. It was pure Vale Tudo - anything goes.

I do not have direct training myself in precision striking systems. However I have multiple expriences in cooperative vs. non-cooperative training. Even is the non-cooperative training is AS limited as let's say pure point-karate it seems to prevail over the pure non-cooperative training no matter how deadly the techniques are.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2006, 09:31 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Kristian,

You seem to keep asking the same questions until you get the answer you've already decided on. Is there a reason for this?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2006, 11:03 AM   #38
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

I think Jorgen has a relevant point regarding the training method over the techniques trained.

For those who have done it, does TFT include any sort of resistance-based, non-cooperative, adrenal-response type training? In all I've read about them, including their newsletter I don't see much regarding resistance-based training, but this does not mean that it does not exist.

A reason why Aikido suffers a lot of bad press in the SD arena is as a result of the absence of resistance-based training in very many schools, regardless of how "deadly" some may make the waza out to be. For those who practice using resistance and other "free-will" elements as a tool, there is a different understanding as to what really happens in interpersonal conflct, what actually works and what "seems" to work.

To be honest, if any program calls itself a "self defence" program or self defence based method and does not deal with adrenal and other psycho-chemical responses that appear often in SD situations, then these programs are lacking ina critical aspect of SD imho.

I think it was Dwight D. Eisenhower who said - "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." One does not need extreme technical skill for SD, but one does need the extreme mindset and willingness to carry through with whatever course of action is decided upon. - This is technique independent.

If TFT speaks about dealing with Asocial violence then resistance and psycho-chemical response conditioning is an absolute necessity.

Just my 2 cents.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2006, 12:22 PM   #39
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 897
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Larry has brought up a great point that is relevant to discussion: There is a difference between hitting and striking. Call it what you want, but repetitive practice of an action will result in a greater likelihood to executing that action without complication. In our discussion, we are specifically speaking about striking with our appendages.

Practicing strikes will improve the possibility of successfully striking your opponent in a fight; there is no question of the validity of this statement. The next question (which has been pointed out) should be, "So what?" So now we go back to hypothetical discussion...

The question that has been (appropriately) raised is simple. For all of the practice involved, is there demonstrable proof that hypothetical strikes are effective when actually applied in a fight? Jorgen seems to rely on the "tried and true" method while we are exploring the feasibility of this question. This is a conservative viewpoint and probably a judicious one for practical purposes.

But consider this, the relate damage that can be inflicted from an accurate strike is much more efficient than an inaccurate strike. A kick to the chest is a great strike, but is it as efficient as the same energy used for a kick to the groin, or the kneecap, or the throat? I would argue no. I've been kick many times in the chest, I've only been kicked a few times in the groin; kick my chest any day, I am more capable to cope with that damage that a groin kick. Other may be different in their pain thresholds and body strengths, I realize my groin, eyes, throat, knees, etc. are vulnerable targets and I train hard to protect them.

Last edited by jonreading : 01-20-2006 at 12:22 PM. Reason: spellin'
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2006, 03:13 PM   #40
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Ron,

Thanks for the inquiry. No, I'm not after a specific, predetermined answer. Just lots of different answers to the same question. I think that out of all the really great posts we've had on this topic only a small number actually answers the question. This is why I have reiterated the question a number of times.

Regards

Kristian.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2006, 08:16 PM   #41
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Just to add something to the mix I have attached a snippet of the last TFT newsletter I received which interestingly enough has a story regarding an incident of asocial violence that occurred in the UK.

Personally, these newsletters have helped me in how I think about self defence (or self protection) with my own training and teaching etc. and helped to define the boundary between social and asocial violence and how one approaches each. Many speak of self defence as a generic thing, but I've learnt that it contains many levels and areas of understanding, some of which are not dealt with in the typical dojo.

Anyway read the attached and discuss if you like.
LC

Quote:
Combat Training Principles -- Secrets For Staying Alive When
'Rules' Don't Apply

HE GAVE MUGGERS ALL HIS POSSESSIONS BUT THEY WANTED MORE... HIS
LIFE
*****************************************************************
When the situation is obscure, attack!
-General Heinz Guderian
*****************************************************************
One of my Expatriate UK clients forwarded this story of a murder
that recently rocked both the residents and media of London.
What made this murder so shocking?
Just this: the victim did everything you all THINK you should do
in this type of situation.
WARNING: The article below will make you very uncomfortable if
you think your social skills will get you by in an asocial
violent event.
With that caveat, please read on:

* * * * *

HE GAVE MUGGERS ALL HIS POSSESSIONS BUT THEY WANTED MORE... HIS
LIFE
By Jeff Edwards, Tom Parry And Robert Stansfield, Times-Mirror
Staff
A successful young lawyer was stabbed to death by muggers just
yards from his home despite handing over all his possessions.
Tom Rhys Pryce was heard pleading with the callous thieves, "What
more do you want from me? You've got everything of value."
Seconds later the two men knifed him in the head, body and limbs
in a frenzied, ferocious and senseless attack before they fled.
The 31-year-old, who was due to marry fiancée Adele Eastman in
September, was stabbed at least a dozen times as he put up a
fierce fight for his life with his bare hands.
Investigation chief Detective Superintendent Julian Worker said:
"This is a shocking murder. It looks like a completely gratuitous
killing.
"It is clear it was a robbery. We know that he had already handed
over everything of value that was on him. We know he was telling
them he had nothing else of value. He was pleading with them and
they just produced knives and started stabbing him.
"Tom was killed just 50 yards from his front door. Adele, 31, was
in the house waiting for him to return from a work social event.
"She went outside after hearing the commotion just before
midnight on Thursday but did not see her dying fiancé who was
lying in a pool of blood.
The family was too upset to talk last night. A neighbor said:
"Tom and Adele were the picture of happiness.
"He had his whole life ahead of him but it has been so cruelly
taken from him. Everyone's devastated."
Another, Gerry Dobson, 63, added: "It's such a bloody, crying
shame. We know from firsthand experience as parents the
dedication and support that has gone into getting that young man
where he got in his profession.

"To have some idiot take that away from you, not just you, but a
whole family, friends and community, well it's dreadful.
"He was someone who had put in all that effort when you have so
many bums who go around scratching a living and don't contribute
anything to society."
Tom was attacked as he walked to his home at Bathurst Gardens in
Willesden, North West London, from nearby Kensal Green Tube
station.
He was smartly dressed in a blue shirt and tie, a grey suit and
black business shoes.
Det Supt Worker said: "This is a quiet, up and coming area of
London, and not the type of place where we would expect a murder
like this to happen." A neighbour of the couple added: "This is a
very normal and usually quiet residential street. It's
unbelievable someone should be killed in such a horrible way so
close to his home."
Police believe the murderers may have been lying in wait near
Kensal Green station looking for a victim to rob.
* * * * *
My condolences go out to the families of this man and his fiancé.
If you've been reading my past newsletters closely you'll
recognize all the clues in this article that clearly show the
general public, our media, and even the law enforcement community
have an incredibly difficult time coping with asocial acts of
violence, much less how to survive one.
You CANNOT let yourself become just 'one of the herd,' waiting
for the next predators to arrive.
If after reading this article from the UK Mirror you still can't
see what this poor guy did wrong you are not ready for asocial
violence.
Sadly most people read this and say that the victim did everything
he could and that "he fought for his life" but the 2 guys with
the knives were just too much for him.
Yet there's a huge difference between "fighting for your life"
and "trying not to get stabbed". Make sure you know the
difference.
The time to install such information is well before you have to
face such an ordeal. If not now, then when? This isn't something
you "figure out" while staring at a knife blade or down the
barrel of a gun.
Living in his nice North London neighborhood, I'm sure the last
thing Mr. Pryce ever expected was that he'd experience asocial
violence during his walk home... and lose his life.
Until next time,

Tim Larkin
Master Close-Combat Instructor,
Creator of Target-Focus(TM) Training

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2006, 06:37 AM   #42
david evans
Dojo: Newcastle Iwama Aikido
Location: Newcastle
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 32
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

I guess the question remains; are you prepared to punch some one in the face till their head caves in? TFT does not promote this, but what are you willing to do?

TFT asks you to forget whatever you think about violence and be willing to apply it to a confrontational situation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2006, 08:27 AM   #43
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 123
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
There are only 2 physiologically "most effective" ways to surely end a fight. A choke and major head trauma.
I would submit that a good kick to the knee is 'most effective'.
Hard to fight if one can't stand.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2006, 03:46 PM   #44
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Matt,

It's also hard to fight with a ruptured ear drum, or broken fingers, or a book fracture of the pelvic ring, or a broken collar bone, or a crushed trachea....... you get the idea.

To say that any one target is preferential or 'most effective' over any other is only going to limit your responses in an asocial situation. All targets are equal. An injury is an injury. Once you get one on your opponent the scale tips in your favor.

Regards

Kristian
Sydney.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2006, 04:21 PM   #45
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
...
1. Is precision striking effective in fights?
2. Does anyone have feedback on precision striking systems, such as TFT? ...
To answer question 1 I would say in a generic sense of course precision striking is effective in fights. That shouldn't even be debatable. If you land land a precision strike to target "x" (throat, groin, kneecap, solar plexus) it will give you the desired result.

The correct question should be can you effectively land precision strikes in a fight? That becomes more difficult and is based largely on your training, in my opinion.

As for question 2 I don't have any feedback on a specific system. When I trained in Tae Kwon Do we did train for shots to the groin, knee, throat, solar plexus, nose, etc but it wasn't "precision striking" per say.

The one encounter I had on the street after that also ended in about 1.5 seconds and 3 blows.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2006, 03:58 PM   #46
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Michael,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm pretty sure I asked the exact question that I wanted to get answers for. But now that you mention it..... Can you effectively land precision strikes in a fight?

Answer: Yes.

Regards

Kristian
Sydney.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2006, 03:41 PM   #47
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Michael,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm pretty sure I asked the exact question that I wanted to get answers for. But now that you mention it..... Can you effectively land precision strikes in a fight?

Answer: Yes.

Regards

Kristian
Sydney.
Kristian,
That is a highly glossed over answer. Take someone who has trained for 1 month in any training style, TFT included, and put them in a fight with a highly trained fighter and I doubt they could land an effective strike period, precision or not.

Take any highly trained martial artist and put them against joe smith on the street and they can land precison strikes, period.

Take someone skilled in TFT/precision striking and pair them up against a skilled martial artist and eventually they can probably land a precision strike, but will they land every blow they throw where they want it? No way. Some will be blocked, some will be dodged, some will land close, but not exactly where they need to land.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2006, 10:38 PM   #48
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Michael,

Thanks for your reply. You stated:

"Take any highly trained martial artist and put them against joe smith on the street and they can land precision strikes, period."

Violence is about injury. Period. Joe smith can use violence just as well as any highly trained martial artist because violence does not use strength, speed etc as a means of domination. It uses destruction. When Joe smith gets an injury on our highly trained martial artist (lets call him "Barry"), then suddenly there is no more competition. Barry is now just a man with an injury. You are talking about a competition between skill in martial arts and no skill.

There are absolutely no rules in violence. Whatever can be done to get an injury is ‘allowed'. There are no moral codes to violence. No right or wrong. There is only injury. Violence is about destruction.

I remember reading a wonderful story in a book titled "Attack Proof". The author relates an instance where a small, untrained woman easily outdid a large man who was highly trained in martial arts. The story goes something like this:

The author gives this small woman a rubber training knife. He pointed to our highly trained martial artist with extensive training in knife fighting who was standing at the other side of the room. He said to this woman words to this effect: "That man over there (the highly trained martial artist) has your children. He will kill them. He is the only thing standing between you and your children. Now do anything you need to do to save them"

The woman then, as the story goes, let out a scream and ran full pelt towards this man. Just as she came within reach she slid on her knees easily evading a blow to her head and stabbed the man repeatedly in the groin. She defeated him easily. Our highly trained martial artist was a little red faced. In ‘real life' he would be a dead man. Period.

I have found that since undertaking my target focus training many un-needed, outdated modes of thought and action have melted away. My training has gone from being ‘Technique' based to being ‘Target' (injury) based. I still think Aikido is an awesome legacy art. The techniques just don't have the same meaning anymore.


Thanks


Kristian.
Sydney.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2006, 10:57 PM   #49
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Michael,

Thanks for your reply. You stated:

"Take any highly trained martial artist and put them against joe smith on the street and they can land precision strikes, period."

Violence is about injury. Period. Joe smith can use violence just as well as any highly trained martial artist because violence does not use strength, speed etc as a means of domination. It uses destruction. When Joe smith gets an injury on our highly trained martial artist (lets call him "Barry"), then suddenly there is no more competition. Barry is now just a man with an injury. You are talking about a competition between skill in martial arts and no skill.

There are absolutely no rules in violence. Whatever can be done to get an injury is ‘allowed'. There are no moral codes to violence. No right or wrong. There is only injury. Violence is about destruction.

I remember reading a wonderful story in a book titled "Attack Proof". The author relates an instance where a small, untrained woman easily outdid a large man who was highly trained in martial arts. The story goes something like this:

The author gives this small woman a rubber training knife. He pointed to our highly trained martial artist with extensive training in knife fighting who was standing at the other side of the room. He said to this woman words to this effect: "That man over there (the highly trained martial artist) has your children. He will kill them. He is the only thing standing between you and your children. Now do anything you need to do to save them"

The woman then, as the story goes, let out a scream and ran full pelt towards this man. Just as she came within reach she slid on her knees easily evading a blow to her head and stabbed the man repeatedly in the groin. She defeated him easily. Our highly trained martial artist was a little red faced. In ‘real life' he would be a dead man. Period.

I have found that since undertaking my target focus training many un-needed, outdated modes of thought and action have melted away. My training has gone from being ‘Technique' based to being ‘Target' (injury) based. I still think Aikido is an awesome legacy art. The techniques just don't have the same meaning anymore.


Thanks


Kristian.
Sydney.
Kristian,
I agree violence is about injury and I believe if I am attacked on the street then the goal is for me to be the one who walks away, and the only one who survives if necessary.

However, I don't see how that has any direct corelation to TFT. The story you cited is ONE amusing and interesting example of an encounter. Show me a case study where that happened 80% of the time and then I'll be interested in that data.

Also, I can cite many examples of women who were being raped, mugged, etc who gouged eyes, bit off ears, etc and survived through violence. Again, none of it has anything whatsoever to do with TFT training though?

TFT training has usefulness and effectivess I'm sure; But in my opinion it is just like everything else. It isn't perfect. My first black belt was in Tae Kwon Do. I have trained in TKD for many years, but it is a far from perfect art so I use other training to supplement my knowledge and fill in the gaps I see my training.

Given the opportunity would I spend some time training with someone skilled in TFT, sure. Would I swear it is the end all savior for survival, not on my life.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 01:23 AM   #50
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido and Target Focus Training

Michael,

The story I cited was one very amusing example. I could continue to post story after story on this site to prove my case. What would be the point? Well, it would show time and again that when people respond to asocial threats with destructive/violent action that their chance of survival goes up dramatically. Defensive wounds are generally only found on corpses. So, in effect, these many examples you can also cite of women successfully using violence to save themselves from being raped and murdered has everything to do with TFT. The use and understanding of violence is one of TFT's main goals. Violence belongs to everyone. No one is immune. The creator of the TFT system does not have the patent on violence. He can however show anyone how to use it effectively. (Testimonials on his site have him at over an 80% success rate I think. (I chuckle to myself))

I don't believe I said at anytime that TFT is the ultimate answer to asocial violence. I will say that TFT is a system that will help the average socialized human understand how to use violence as a survival tool in an asocial situation. TFT also gives the average person a long list of targets to injure and shows them how to injure those targets, very simply, should they ever need to.

In my 10 years of Aikido training I never received any instruction in how to effectively address asocial violence. TFT filled in the gaps in my Aikido training. My initial post (I hope you read it Michael) was to find out if anyone had had the same or similar experience.


Regards

Kristian.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Cool Rain Productions - Since 1976, the exclusive source for "Aikido in Training" Book/DVD Series



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 05:29 AM
Punishing Uke David Orange Training 46 06-23-2006 08:26 AM
Article: Clarity and Self-Delusion in One's Training by George S. Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 65 12-24-2005 08:34 AM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 01:45 PM
Aikido and pregnancy Anat Amitay General 5 03-17-2002 12:49 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:34 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate