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Old 01-23-2006, 09:48 AM   #26
aikidodragon
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

This is really sad I know, but I have been Judo for 4 almost 5 years. and I did not know how many katas we had. I knew about nage no kata, and I had been told that there were,but I did not know what they are or what techniques were in them. My first dojo was a randory compition dojo only. Nage no kata was the only taught, and it was just for the black belt test.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
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Old 01-23-2006, 05:58 PM   #27
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yann Golanski wrote:
Quote:
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...



Lets look at principle not technique and there is more in common than you think.
aigamae ate and shomen ate:share the some priciple as the first technique from Judo Itsutsu no kata and tai the first technique from koshiki no kata.
gyakugamae ate: kodaore 7th technique Judo koshiki no kata
gedan ate: uchi kudaki 8th technique koshiki no kata
ushiro ate: ryokuhi and shikoro dori 3rd and 11th techniques of koshiki no kata
There are many others hiki taoshi for example. Tomiki Sensei in his teachings on the modernisation of Ju Jutsu classified Ju jutsu technique into four catogories:
1.Atemi Waza
2.Kansetsu Waza
3.Nage Waza
4.Katamae Waza
In Judo we practice Nage waza and Katamae waza in Aikido we practice Atemi waza and Kansetsu waza. And he personally said to my sensei that there is about a 30% crossover between Judo and Aikido.And to quote Tomiki Sensei from his book Judo appendix Aikido "Aiki means making your spirit fit in with your opponent's. After all it means the samething as the principle of gentleness (Ju), for it is an explanation of the priciple from within."
What the heck are you saying? Just because someone might do the Shodokan style doesn't mean they would know what the heck you are saying. Koshiki no. WTF? In Judo you only practice moves for competition which makes you weak. If kensetsu and whatever else were allowed an Aikido lurker would mop the floor with those guys. I don't think the stuff in black is the same.
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Old 01-23-2006, 06:02 PM   #28
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

By coincidence two of my Aikido students watched separate Judo tapes. One of Mifune demonstrating kata and randori and one of Kano demonstrating kata. I met them separately on the same day and both told me about the tape and said it looked just like Aikido. You know it does.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-23-2006, 07:23 PM   #29
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
What the heck are you saying? Just because someone might do the Shodokan style doesn't mean they would know what the heck you are saying. Koshiki no. WTF? In Judo you only practice moves for competition which makes you weak. If kensetsu and whatever else were allowed an Aikido lurker would mop the floor with those guys. I don't think the stuff in black is the same.
James;

The relation to Judo techniques is talked about on the Shodokan Honbu Homepage and in more detail in the book Aikido: Tradition and the Competitive Edge. Although Tomiki made a point of not bringing in techniques not taught to him by Ueshiba (keeping Aikido and Judo training separate) there is about a 30% technical overlap between the two arts (some consider it even more). Its not expected for Dan grades in Shodokan to perform Judo kata but it is part of the education to understand the broader relationship between Aikido and other Japanese arts.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi4.html

The quote in black is from Tomiki himself. I think its fair to say he understood both arts to a high degree.

I would not dismiss Judo guys so easily. Have you done any Judo?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-23-2006, 09:37 PM   #30
PeterR
 
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

By the by more detail on the Koshiki no Kata can be found here and in even more detail here. An Aikidoist reading the latter will see a lot that is familiar - the concept of Aiki, oneness with the Universe, very esoteric. Those that are into the Chinese connection to Japanese martial arts will find something also.

Since it is meant to be practiced in full armor you wont see much of the dogi grabbing found in Judo randori - in fact it looks like Aikido. This was the kata my student was watching that Kano demonstrated (see my posts above).

I personally find this kata seriously cool.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-23-2006, 09:37 PM   #31
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
I would not dismiss Judo guys so easily. Have you done any Judo?
Do Judo? No way! I'd rather fight against it to see what it's like. The gentle way? Most of the serious Judo players I know are very musclular. I was saying that they have become weak because they only train for competition and only rely on brute strength. They hardly train joint locking techniques because it's not allowed in competition. I'd like to see them grab me while I shomen-ate their butt. Okay I know that part is just talking trash. Anyways.....
Judo players usually lose to lurkers for some reason. I was reading Chuck Clark's post about how one of his student went to a Judo competition and used gedan-ate and they were like WTF just happened. Dude Tohei beat their butt. I'm nowhere as good as Tohei so that's not a good example.

Peter. What is up with this picture?


Last edited by James Smithe : 01-23-2006 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 01-23-2006, 10:18 PM   #32
PeterR
 
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Shodothug was coined by a non-Shodokan Aikidoist on this very forum as a friendly joke. Its sort of become a running gag. The picture was drawn by Rob Hori - good friend and training partner.

Hmmm I got a Judo story - perhaps I'll start a new thread to tell it.

My experience cross-training in Judo has given me different impressions.

Last edited by PeterR : 01-23-2006 at 10:25 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-23-2006, 10:24 PM   #33
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

That would be awesome.
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Old 01-24-2006, 12:12 AM   #34
PeterR
 
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Tohei knew Judo before he started Aikido - he was also quite the size.

Most Aikidoists wouldn't last against most Judoka. It simply a matter of how they train. I think that the "lurkers" you mention are already a self selective bunch - those willing to put their body on the line - but I definately would not use the word usually.

I was used to full resistance training but based on my experience and talking with other Shodokan Aikido folks that made the same trip two observations come to mind.

1. Shutting down a Judoka's technique is much easier than tossing a Judoka.
2. Judoka can shut your technique down much easier than tossing you.

Detect a trend? I sure can. I've heard Aikidoists from other styles make similar observations.

Shomen-ate works quite well, so does ushio-ate - but your timing has to be real good.

Chuck Clark's gedan-ate story - I wont put words in his mouth but I bet he wont disagree with me.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-24-2006, 01:48 AM   #35
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Most Aikidoists wouldn't last against most Judoka. It simply a matter of how they train. I think that the "lurkers" you mention are already a self selective bunch - those willing to put their body on the line
This paragraph confuses me. The first two sentences remind me of someone who just started Aikido or a part time practioner. How are those willing to put their body on the line a self selective bunch? Sorry I have a low vocabulary.
I'm not like most practioners of Aikido. I have a will to tap it's full potential. I'm not some part time martial artists. I will continue to practice everyday until I reach perfection. Aikido is a martial art above all else it's just not some dance you do in the dojo. All who face me will fall before me one day. However I don't think Aikido's full potential is beating a bunch of Judoka like Tohei did.
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Old 01-24-2006, 04:14 AM   #36
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
The first two sentences remind me of someone who just started Aikido or a part time practioner.
That's me alright. Perfect description.

So James - where do you study and for how long.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-24-2006, 04:56 AM   #37
happysod
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
However I don't think Aikido's full potential is beating a bunch of Judoka like Tohei did.
You have to admit, it wouldn't be a bad start...

I think this thread should be moved into the humour section (grabs popcorn and waits eagerly)
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Old 01-24-2006, 05:39 AM   #38
IlyasDexter
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Sara Parson wrote:
This is really sad I know, but I have been Judo for 4 almost 5 years. and I did not know how many katas we had. I knew about nage no kata, and I had been told that there were,but I did not know what they are or what techniques were in them. My first dojo was a randory compition dojo only. Nage no kata was the only taught, and it was just for the black belt test.
I agree with you Sara it is sad that much of Kano Sensei's system seems to be neglected, sport is just a small part of what he gave to us. His system as he taught it comprises of both Randori and Kata. Tomiki Sensei's Aikido system is the same there is both the practice of Randori and Kata. Anyway I still say you should enjoy training in Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido and I sincerely hope you find Dojos that are sincerely dedicated to teaching and preserving the teachings of these two great masters.
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Old 01-24-2006, 06:08 AM   #39
IlyasDexter
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

For the record I'm not a Judoka. I have been studying Tomiki Aikido for 7 years now.
And just for you James Tomiki Sensei has been quoted by one of his senior students as saying
" Don't be conceited about your art. If you come at me with Aikido techniques I will use Judo foot techniques."
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Old 01-24-2006, 09:01 AM   #40
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Although very many Judo players are caught up in the "competition only" aspect of things, it is a rare treat to find those who practice it for the .

From my experiences in Judo I can't say that those guys are pushovers (pardon the pun), but if one knows one's Aiki and trains to deal with resistance like they do, then it will be an interesting encounter at the very least.

Hmm.. that reminds me of one of my own Judo stories, but I won't bore you guys with that.

What I have found with my own Shodokan students who do Judo is that their approach to Judo randori is different and they are less likely to try and muscle technique, preferring to work on precise tai sabaki and a good kuzushi.

Even in Judo newaza they have found ways of utilizing kansetsu waza principles from Aikido to gain leverage to execute Judo pins and chokes.

The blend is just perfect, keeps the Judo guys thinking too, so the learning goes both ways.

I think its a mistake however to underestimate any person, regardless of the art they practice.

Just my 2 cents.

LC

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Old 01-24-2006, 09:19 AM   #41
aikidodragon
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Hellow

James please try to shoman uchi me, I have nice epon seo nage wating for you. I can think of a few more throws but I can't spell them.

I can't find the icon,
smile

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
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Old 01-24-2006, 10:15 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

I think you mean shomen ate...different thing.

Best,
Ron (and I wouldn't challenge someone to do that...could lead to a serious bout of TMJ)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-24-2006, 10:20 AM   #43
Mark Freeman
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Sara Parson wrote:

I can't find the icon,
smile
Hi Sara, hit the Go Advanced button under the quick reply text box. you'll find them there.

I notice your signature is : ki aikido is just origami with people. Is that a good or bad thing ?

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-24-2006, 10:56 AM   #44
aikidodragon
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

I am glad some one knows what i am talking about, the strike i was refering to was a strike to the top of the head. I don't know what name to use for it i've herd two or three, so sorry if I use the wrong one, correct me please. I'll git right some day.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
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Old 01-24-2006, 11:00 AM   #45
aikidodragon
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

aikido is just orogami with people is a good thing. I foun it on a martial arts humor sight and decided to use it.
there was also
jujitsu: people who will fold your londry for you... while you are still wearing it.
There were some more but those were the two the applyed to me.

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
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Old 01-24-2006, 11:47 AM   #46
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Ah, nope my mistake. Shomen uchi is what you were thinking of...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-24-2006, 12:42 PM   #47
Matt Molloy
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
I think this thread should be moved into the humour section (grabs popcorn and waits eagerly)
Agreed. *brings beer.*

Cheers,

Matt.

(Who isn't going to say anything against Judo, at least not whilst the wife's still studying it. )
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Old 01-24-2006, 11:05 PM   #48
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...
Tomiki saw Aikido as part of a broader Judo. I read the book Judo and Aikido (from the 50's) and this is how I still view Tomiki Aikido.

Tomiki broke the Principles of Judo into 2 categories.
1) Aiki Techniques
2) Randori Techniques

Tomiki saw that Judo focused more on Nage-waza and Katamae-waza (both Randori Techniques), and neglected Kansetsu-waza and Atemi-waza (Aiki Techniques).

He said that in order to master Judo, Kansetsu-waza and Atemi-waza could not be overlooked. Especially from the viewpoint of Self-Defense. This is where Aikido came in.

I see Tomiki Aikido and Judo as complimenting each other.

While Judo and Tomiki Aikido don't share the same techniques, the underlying principles are the same. The technique really isn't important from this point of view and they really become the same thing.

I've often heard Tomiki Aikido called Judo at arms length.
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Old 01-25-2006, 12:37 AM   #49
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Me? No I totally suck. I haven't gotten past the atemiwaza section. I'm confident that if I keep practicing I'll learn all of the Junahon Kata. 17 no biggie. I'll learn them all. I just started taking Aikido seriously. I'll pm the hours I've spent in the dojo if you really want to know.
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Old 01-25-2006, 10:17 AM   #50
IlyasDexter
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Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
Me? No I totally suck. I haven't gotten past the atemiwaza section. I'm confident that if I keep practicing I'll learn all of the Junahon Kata. 17 no biggie. I'll learn them all. I just started taking Aikido seriously. I'll pm the hours I've spent in the dojo if you really want to know.
No Biggie!!! If you are truly sincere in reaching your full potential in this style of Aikido start showing Tomiki Sensei some respect. Junana no hon Kata is a work of genious, it is limitless in variation and application I'm a NiDan and feel that ive only just begun learning it, my sensei has been doing it for fourty years and its still opening up to her. You have been disagreeing with what myself and other Dan grades have been saying about the Aikido/Judo relationship, we haven't been making it up, it is what Tomiki Sensei's works teach us. Ettiquette is the secret to success in the Japanese martial arts please try to use it to the best of your knowledge at all times. It was very poor thinking and a lack of respect saying you could Shomen ate a Judoka's but when frankly at your level you couldnt shomen ate your way out of a wet paper bag and I doubt if your break falling is at a level you could withstand a Judo throw at high speed. Any way train hard learn from your Sempais and Sensei's, read what you can of Tomiki Sensei and always begin with ettiquette and end with ettiquette and God willing you will come to know the wonderful art that is Tomiki Aikido.
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