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Old 01-12-2006, 02:11 PM   #26
tenshinaikidoka
 
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

I would be real interested to know how someone in Aikido got a Menkyo Kaiden from O'Sensei as well. O'Sensei received a certificate from Takeda Sensei titled Kaishaku Soden no Koto. Which is, according to Kondo Sensei, a complete transmission at the time. This information can be found on Aikido Journal with Stanly Prannen interviewing Kondo Sensei. I would assume that O'Sensei did not issue Menkyo Kaidens relating to Daito Ryu because S. Takeda was the one who would issue full transmission scrolls (I think, please correct me if I am wrong) and I beleive as Mr. Tisdale stated, they were not refered to as that at that time.
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:14 PM   #27
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

i shouldnt have mentioned it now it sounds like i'm bragging... my sensei wouldnt have mentioned it but if you must know check my profile... i think he was the only gaijin to recieve one... he studied with Tohei in Hawaii if that helps...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-12-2006, 02:20 PM   #28
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

I studied under Larry Reynosa (a senior student of Seagal's yondan at the time-godan now) for five years. There is nothing wrong with his aikido. All those things you spoke about James are just uneducated opinions. Yes, Seagal doesn't train nearly like he did in the early eighties. I have personally met him, trained in a class of his and taken ukemi from him. He's got a nasty kotegaeshi. He is everybit as good as any of the other American Shihan I have seen and I have seen a few.
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:35 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Edwin, it doesn't sound like you are bragging, it sounds like incorrect information. Pending further clarification, it kind of means we have to assume you or your 'Sensei' are lying, or someone in the chain mis-understood something.

Your profile doesn't mention who you actually train with, just who you admire. Parker Shihan, as part of the Yoshinkan, wouldn't have a Menkyo Kaiden from Ueshiba Sensei (O-Sensei), or Tohei Sensei either. It would probably be questionable if either gave such a document. If you're not trying to hide something, just state the name of your teacher...that would probably clear up the mis-understanding.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:42 PM   #30
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

i am a traditionalist... lineage is important, as is skill... Seagal has good aikido, but hes not the best out there... his school plays hard thats good... much better than aikidance schools that dont touch each other and/or say there is no striking in aikido or something like that... funny you should mention kotegaeshi as that is what I call a benchmark technique... check a senseis kotegaeshi and you can get a sense of how developed his waza is by noting the small detail (devils in the details!!!) and sometimes you can tell who his sensei was by watching how he does certain waza...

you studied with Reynosa who studied with Seagal who studied with.... yadayada... how far back do you have to go to get to Osensei??? That makes a difference in some cases ( im not saying in your case :-))

shihan are a dime a dozen rank tends to be inflated in some schools organizations...

just my view of the state of the aikido landscape ... i still have much more to see...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-12-2006, 02:46 PM   #31
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

I would agree with you Edwin. Seagal studied under Tohei but then under Abe Sensei in Japan. Abe Sensei was an uchi deshi under O'Sensei. I liked a lot of Seagal's style--especially the randori. He doesn't do techniques like shiho nage as he is absolutely huge-which is one of the reasons his irimi is so good. He's very fast too.
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:51 PM   #32
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

I was present when Parker shihan got his 7th dan in the late 80's... i was in the navy in japan and he was my first but not my primary sensei... i still hesitate to mention (ie speak for) my sensei as i am currently inactive in his school... i moved out of state so i dont train regularly anymore... his rank and credentials are recognized by Hombu no mistake about that and his credentials are recognized by Ki society no mistake there either...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-12-2006, 02:51 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Hmmm....You wouldn't be referring to an Honorary 10th dan given to James Mitose by Tohei in Hawai, supposedly from Ueshiba...now would you?

A) not a menkyo kaiden

B) Mitose was a thug

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:54 PM   #34
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

read my profile i listed my sensei s on it ... not mitose although my sensei knew him...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-12-2006, 02:55 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

I don't believe Hombu dojo (Aikikai or Yoshinkan) use the rank 'Menkyo Kaiden'...I can't be sure of the Ki Society but I place a pretty large bet that they don't use that title either. Are you sure you have it right? If what you say is true, your instructor shouldn't mind. On the other hand...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:58 PM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

From Stan Pranin's Encyclopedia of Aikdo:
SUENAKA, ROY Y.
U. S. Air Force retired. Aikido and karate instructor. First taught aikido by Koichi TOHEI in Hawaii in 1953. Early foreign practitioner at the AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO. Established the first aikido dojo in Okinawa in 1961. Relocated to Charleston, South Carolina in 1972 and remained there after retirement from the military in 1978. Founder and president of the American International Ki Development and Philosophical Society. Mr. Roy Suenaka, 4341 Bream Rd. , Charleston Heights, SC 29405 USA.

No mention of rank...certainly no mention of Menkyo Kaiden. Sure you want to stick with that??

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-12-2006, 03:08 PM   #37
Raspado
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Ouch!
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Old 01-12-2006, 03:12 PM   #38
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

yes i'll stick with more up to date info than the encyclopedia, but you got it... no mention of rank eh ...
well stan dont know everything....

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-12-2006, 04:22 PM   #39
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Stan doesn't know everything?? Well, that might be true, but he is a definate source for correct information. But, the point is this, I have never heard of anyone in Aikido, being given a Menkyo Kaiden certificate, even when O'Sensei was teaching Daito Ryu, I do not beleive he handed out that type of certificate to anyone. Now my info might be off (On the Daito Ryu stuff) but I would like to see that certificate given to any Aikido practisioner (Shihan or otherwise). Please understand, it is not that we don't beleive that you beleive it is true, I think there might be some misunderstanding regarding this certification. Perhaps on your part, maybe in our understanding of what you are saying!
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Old 01-12-2006, 04:28 PM   #40
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

In Roy Suenaka's book, Complete Aikido: Aikido Kyohan : The Definitive Guide to the Way of Harmony (Tuttle Martial Arts), he doesn't mention receiving a Menkkyo Kaiden from either Ueshiba or Tohei.

Though, given who he's trained with in aikido, judo and karate-do (in Hawaii, Japan and Okinawa), he certainly sounds like someone that's been around the block a time or two.

From what I remember, I particularly enjoyed the chapter(s) on how Suenaka Sensei dealt with dojo stormers and street altercations -- not to mention how the book reconciles such things with "aiki" and the understanding of harmony.

The photos in the book are quite excellent as well.

Last edited by Budd : 01-12-2006 at 04:31 PM.

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Old 01-12-2006, 04:39 PM   #41
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

budd p. 43 read it again

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Old 01-12-2006, 04:50 PM   #42
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
budd p. 43 read it again
So far as I know, Suenaka received a menkyo kaiden from M. Ueshiba in the 1960's. It seems to be genuine, but what it actually means is anybody's guess.

One note, all Larry King quotes aside, Seagal's wife's father was an alcoholic who died when she was in first grade and never did Aikido. His wife ran a small dojo before she met Seagal, and they opened a larger one for Seagal after they got married.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-12-2006, 05:07 PM   #43
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

sensei says its just a piece of paper and laughs, but I'm sure Osensei knew what it meant when he gave it too him... I understand it to mean he is liscensed to teach aikido and confers some level of mastery which is recognized by the Ministry of education in Japan. On Seagal and his things in Japan I'm not sure just looking for clarification... his aikido is good... but rank is hard to measure when mcdojos with 11th dan grandmasters of hellfire aikido pop up all over the place...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-12-2006, 05:47 PM   #44
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
sensei says its just a piece of paper and laughs, but I'm sure Osensei knew what it meant when he gave it too him... I understand it to mean he is liscensed to teach aikido and confers some level of mastery which is recognized by the Ministry of education in Japan.
That's an interesting thought - I wonder if it was given to him in order to make it easier to teach in Okinawa? I know that Morihei Ueshiba made up various certificates for other people for simlar reasons.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-12-2006, 05:59 PM   #45
Edwin Neal
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

i think that was part of it at least, but "I" understood it to mean he had achieved a somewhat high level of mastery and could establish his own "ha" (school or style) of aikido... as in Suenaka "ha" Tetsugaku ho Aikido... however he didnt do that until way after osenseis passing and the split between tohei and the former doshu Kisshomaru... but well maybe its just easier to say its a piece of paper, although it looks impressive enough ...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-12-2006, 07:34 PM   #46
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Interesting. Which instructor would that be? I haven't even heard of the pre-war Daito ryu densho given to Shioda and others being referred to as Menkyo Kaiden.
I have at least with respect to Tomiki. I had assumed that the densho given to Shioda and others was the same but really not that sure what was given when.

If not Menkyo Kaiden what were they called?

Last edited by PeterR : 01-12-2006 at 07:44 PM.

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Old 01-12-2006, 11:59 PM   #47
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Mr Neal,

Just a question, in reading over other threads, there seems to be a point where you will bring up Seagal and basically down play him, is there some reason for this? I only ask because it is only negative stuff from what I have seen. Seagal Shihan is a 7th Dan, and by far one of the better 7th Dans I have seen (in his more active Aikido days). Although I was personally more impressed with Isoyama Shihan, I still say and beleive that Seagal is and should be the rank at which he is. This is my own opinion, and others will vary. But I like to think that all higher dan ranks have something to give to Aikido. I would hope that we could learn to get along as a collective group more instead of all the negative talk I so often see. But again, this is my opinion!!

With resepct,

Brandon
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:13 AM   #48
Edwin Neal
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Ai symbol Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

with respect to all I am somewhat bothered by ranking and although I give respect to all fellow students especially those that have studied longer than I... IMHO some rankings seem to be a little inflated... I have been kind of bouncing around here to get a feel for this forum... I like you believe all higher ranks and lower ranks equally have much to offer to Aikido, but as far as seagal goes I have no problem with him personally... with regards to all aikidoka I say doesn't our art by its very nature require a high degree of "sincerety and self-honesty". How can we or any one else respect and be worthy of OSensei's legacy if we are not... ?

Last edited by Edwin Neal : 01-13-2006 at 12:16 AM.

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Old 01-13-2006, 03:53 AM   #49
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Okay I will say this twice. This topic has been done to death. Don't you think it's strange that someone new to Aikiweb should be the one to say this. You might as well bring up his herbal supplement drink again.
About the Menkyo Kaiden. I heard that Kenji Tomiki was the first to receive a Menkyo Kaiden from Ueshiba. After Ueshiba adopted the Dan ranking system his Menkyo Kaiden was converted to an 8th dan. I'm really not sure if this is correct though.
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:01 AM   #50
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Re: Sensei Steven Seagal's ?

Hey, Edwin.
Tohei was his teacher (and graded him to at least 1 dan). Isoyama was his teacher. Abe was his teacher. All three are considered to be the foremost of the founders direct students. How is that for lineage for you.
Who are you to say Seagal is not 100% sincere and honest about his aikido and everything else today? Have you met him or his students lately? Do you base your knowledge about this man from rumors, hypes and myths? Then how does that goes with the "nature of our art as you say?
Someone who has trained aikido since at least the end of 60's-beginning of 70's, who has operated a successful dojo in japan, who has been recognized as friend and good aikidoka by Isoyama and Abe, who recieved hachidan and was honoured to demonstrate at all Japan Aikido 1995 by Second doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba, at least I think deserves the respect to not be called someone who runs a McDojo.

Or maybe that is just me.

/J

Jakob Blomquist
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