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Old 01-07-2006, 03:44 AM   #1
justin
Location: swansea wales
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the pins

still new to this aikido world and some of the pins we do are very painful a lot of the senior grades seem to take them without showing any signs of pain well no where near as much as i do, i got to wondering do you become more supple or just used to the level of pain. and out of curiosity which is the most painful pin I myself find everything my sensei does very painful. !!!

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Old 01-07-2006, 09:56 AM   #2
sullivanw
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Re: the pins

You do get more supple and used to the pain over time. A lot of what I have been working on is relaxing and accepting the pin. The more psychological resistance that I have, like, "ouch that's going to hurt!", the more the pins hurt!
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:34 PM   #3
batemanb
 
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Re: the pins

Which ones more pinful? Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo and Rokyo all bloody hurt if you ask me. After nearly 14 years they still hurt as much as they did on day one. I think the difference is that you become a little more conditioned to the pain, it don't go away or get any better though.

regards

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:06 PM   #4
justin
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Re: the pins

thank you people i shall try and blend more with the pin instead of trying to pull away from it.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:24 PM   #5
Mats Alritzson
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Re: the pins

See it as a stretching exercise. Breath out and relax when you get pinned.
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Old 01-07-2006, 05:12 PM   #6
GreenLizzard
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Re: the pins

pins hardly ever hurt anymore
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Old 01-07-2006, 09:09 PM   #7
kokyu
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Which ones more pinful? Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo and Rokyo all bloody hurt if you ask me.
I guess it depends on tori as well... some toris seem to be more 'skillful' at some techniques than others.

I have to agree with Bryan that they all hurt, but in terms of longer-lasting injury, my arms tend to recover more slowly from sankyo and rokkyo - sometimes my elbows hurt for weeks... it gets inconvenient when I have to lift something heavy and a pain shoots up the elbows... Come to think of it, I'm wondering why my elbows are 'weaker'... perhaps it's because ever since I started Aikido, the warm-up exercises tended to focus on the wrist rather than the elbow?

What do you think?
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Old 01-07-2006, 09:50 PM   #8
eyrie
 
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Re: the pins

Hmmm.... I think the osae waza in aikido is meant to apply immobilization control using ai-ki rather than pain compliance. Interestingly, many senior jujitsu practitioners I've spoken to and trained with whilst, on the one hand do teach pain compliance, seem to prefer (structural) immobilization for various reasons, particularly LEO applications.

Ignatius
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:44 PM   #9
jgros
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Re: the pins

I thought I would contribute a slightly different perspective since no one brought it up.

I am currently of the opinion that receiving a pin is as much a part of ukemi as is receiving kotegaeshi, ikkyo or nodotsuki (sp?). I believe there are more correct ways to receive these pins, just as there are more correct ways to receive techniques.

If you are getting hurt during your ukemi, I would take special care to watch what your seniors do when they are in the same position. If possible, ask if you can practice ukemi on this particular technique you are having issues with. Of course many techniques hurt during the application, but if you still feel pain after the nage lets off the pressure, I have a feeling the ukemi may need some work (assuming your partner isn't malicious ). Every one of my Aikido related injuries I have ever experienced (and unfortunately I still experience them regularly) are related to my improper ukemi.

As for pain in the elbows, I can see how hijishime/hiji-otoshi can cause pain in the elbows. In fact, that was one of my aforementioned recent injuries. Direct contact to the elbow doesn't give much leeway for ukemi does it?
As for sankyo, I am more likely to get injured from the possible cut down after sankyo (which can cause whiplash if you are careless in ukemi) than the sankyo itself. If sankyo hurts your elbows, my advice is to move quick! Gambatte!

Jeff
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:58 AM   #10
MaryKaye
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Re: the pins

We are taught, when you expect to receive a standing pin be on your toes and light, ready to move! If you don't move immediately when the pin bites, nage may think it's not working and try harder, and you don't want that.

I think yonkyo hurts the worst. I was demo uke once for a junior instructor who said offhandedly, "And you could also get yonkyo from this entry, like so--" and I swore like a fishwife at him! It just came out.... He didn't say anything about this massive breach of dojo etiquette so I guess he knew why it happened.

I had to prepare yonkyo for my third kyu tests and did a solid hour of it with a fifth kyu and a third kyu training partner. (Thanks, guys. That was above and beyond the call of duty.) Next day, I had a huge brown handprint on each arm from the fifth kyu's big hands. But, oddly, that didn't hurt. I also had two tiny, almost invisible blue spots from the third kyu's corect yonkyo, and those hurt a lot!

Mary Kaye
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Old 01-08-2006, 01:02 AM   #11
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
Come to think of it, I'm wondering why my elbows are 'weaker'... perhaps it's because ever since I started Aikido, the warm-up exercises tended to focus on the wrist rather than the elbow?

What do you think?
Well, I can see how the nikyo, sankyo, and kotegaeshi warm-ups may look like they are just about the wrist, but I do believe the stretch can (and should) go down to the elbows, too. At least, with kotegaeshi, you can do it so it stretches the wrist, but if you keep your wrist straight and do the same stretch, you can feel it in your elbow.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 01-08-2006, 08:10 AM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
Well, I can see how the nikyo, sankyo, and kotegaeshi warm-ups may look like they are just about the wrist, but I do believe the stretch can (and should) go down to the elbows, too. At least, with kotegaeshi, you can do it so it stretches the wrist, but if you keep your wrist straight and do the same stretch, you can feel it in your elbow.
Good point, but I think that nikyo and sankyo stretches should go to the lower back (L3) and Kotegaeshi should go to the belly just below the navel. ;^)

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-08-2006, 08:45 AM   #13
Mark Mueller
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Re: the pins

There you go again Mike...messin with everyone's thought patterns!

Have you given any more thought to doing a seminar or two regarding earlier discussions?

Mark
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Old 01-08-2006, 09:09 AM   #14
Mike Sigman
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote:
There you go again Mike...messin with everyone's thought patterns!

Have you given any more thought to doing a seminar or two regarding earlier discussions?
Hi Mark:

I've had Aikido people at various workshops over the years, but generally the workshops focus on these general concepts of "ki" and "kokyu" and then go into power releases or assorted applications of other arts to keep the testosterone-driven more interested.

I've tried a few Aikido-only workshops and I'm never totally happy with the outcome. So I'm ambivalent at the moment and the original offer I made only got a total of about 13 interested people. I sort of forgot about it, to be honest. Besides, I only do workshops as a hobby and I tend to be sparing about taking time away from home to do them.

Maybe sometime. In the meantime, the discussions give me new insights, motivate me to think, and allow me to chip in occasionally. I.e., I'm happy enough being stimulated by the various Chinese and Japanese martial arts forums without having to cudgel my wits and come up with an ideal Aikido-only workshop.

All the Best.

Mike
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Old 01-08-2006, 03:38 PM   #15
raul rodrigo
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Re: the pins

For me the least painful is yonkyo, if only because my wrists seem to be yonkyo resistant. In ten years only two people have really been able to make me tap out of pain from the nerve pressure, my sensei and his Japanese teacher. Its more fruitful for nage to try for the arm break (our shihan during yonkyo: "Ahh, he feels no pain? Okay, we break the arm instead.") Several of the people in my dojo have this ability to resist yonkyo. So pain compliance through yonkyo is not something we stress. As long as the pin is structurally correct, and therefore cannot be broken, then we're doing all right.
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Old 01-08-2006, 11:48 PM   #16
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Good point, but I think that nikyo and sankyo stretches should go to the lower back (L3) and Kotegaeshi should go to the belly just below the navel. ;^)

FWIW

Mike
I knew that! But since I haven't yet figured out to make the stretch go all the way to the lower back, I figure it would be best to only speak to what I knew for sure.

Still trying, though!

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 01-09-2006, 12:07 AM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
I knew that! But since I haven't yet figured out to make the stretch go all the way to the lower back,
How about extending the let's say lightly-applied sankyo and the applying hand far enough out in front of the chest (for starters, to give you a feel for it) so that you can notice that there is a very slight stretch/tension of the skin/muscles along the arm to the back. Inhale while pulling the stomach slightly in while slumping/relaxing the torso a little... try to let the lower back accept the twist being applied to the wrist.

You can't control the hands and wrists with the "center" of the body unless there is a real and functional connection from the center to the wrist/hand. This is a good way to start developing, at least for the yin qi.

Regards and FWIW,

Mike
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Old 01-09-2006, 08:26 AM   #18
roosvelt
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Re: the pins

As a beginner myself, don't know exactly where you should feel the pain (strech). I believe Mike is more right than most posters.

Reading "Total Aikido", there is a page about controlling your opponent's knee PHYSICALLY by controlling his wrist. It's more in line with what Mike said.

A lot of nage don't know how to apply the pin correctly. As a uke, you have to move to correct configuration and position to receive the pin. As most people said, relax and try to "feel" the pain with your centre. If you feel the pain stop somewhere, say elbow, if mean you're too stiff in the elbow area. The stiffness could be physically, or mentally. Due to my inflexible shoulder, I tend to feel the pain (block point) around my shoulder area. Most people's elbow should be flexible enough for the pins, you can relax more and move your elbow angle > 90 degree.

If you can feel the pain path, by using the same path, you can apply "ki" easily. I have trouble feeling the pain path go through shoulder to my back. Accordingly, I have trouble connect my up arm to my body via shoulder. (this paragraph is my sepculation. I have nothing to back it up)

Practice this in class is more a waste of time, most people in my club have no idea what they're doing. They have no intention to control my center. They just enjoy applying more pains by sharp angle and speed. I doubt my instructor knows either. Because in the warm up pin excercise, he counted so fast. I can only do 1 pin in 4 count.
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Old 01-09-2006, 08:34 AM   #19
ian
 
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Re: the pins

Pins don't have to be painful unless they are whacked on full speed or incorrectly. Ideally a pin is painful to struggle against but not to go with (in reality, if someone with no experience feels pain they don't have a clue where to move or go to; and often they feel no pain at all due to adrenalin).

Although you get a bit more supple, I don't think my joints are stronger - I tend to be better at feeling when and where the pain is coming from and directing my body to avoid the pain!

To me yonkyo is the most painful since it is the most difficult for nage to realise how much pain is being delivered and thus it can often be extremely sudden like an electric shock. Techniques like sankyo and nikkyo can be done extremely gradually and with alot of sensetivity.

Practically, pins may look great but a non-aikido person can respond like wiggling spaghetti! Control of uke with the pin is far more important and something which just comes by feeling what happens to uke when you do it in various ways and responding to uke trying to escape (without damaging them!)

Last edited by ian : 01-09-2006 at 08:37 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 01-09-2006, 09:45 AM   #20
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
How about extending the let's say lightly-applied sankyo and the applying hand far enough out in front of the chest (for starters, to give you a feel for it) so that you can notice that there is a very slight stretch/tension of the skin/muscles along the arm to the back. Inhale while pulling the stomach slightly in while slumping/relaxing the torso a little... try to let the lower back accept the twist being applied to the wrist.

You can't control the hands and wrists with the "center" of the body unless there is a real and functional connection from the center to the wrist/hand. This is a good way to start developing, at least for the yin qi.

Regards and FWIW,

Mike
Hmmmmm.... I can't say for sure if I was feeling the stretch or if my back was just stiff from sitting in the chair for so long, but I think I got the idea. Definitely felt it past the shoulder.

Thanks!

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 01-09-2006, 09:59 PM   #21
kokyu
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
So pain compliance through yonkyo is not something we stress. As long as the pin is structurally correct, and therefore cannot be broken, then we're doing all right.
I've experienced some very painful yonkyo, and some have left bruises that lasted a week... but this is nothing compared to the month-long injuries from rokkyo, which are then made worse by a strong sankyo...

I agree with Raul that the pin is more important in yonkyo than the pain itself. I remember practicing with a relatively elderly person whose yonkyo didn't hurt at all, although his control was excellent. I thought he was doing it wrongly... but then I switched partners, and did yonkyo on a young fellow... he said that it hurt, but so what? I had no control over his center... his shoulder and elbow were quite loose, so I was swinging his arm around with no effect... Also, it's more difficult to cut the nerve on thick forearms/wrists, so it's more practical to focus on the pin rather than the pain.
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:23 PM   #22
odudog
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Re: the pins

You wrists get more supple as you continue to do the pins but they also get used to the pain as well. Your seniors have an added advantage on you in the fact that they are more sensitive to feel when the pain is about to start to become excruciating. They will then start to move in the proper direction to lesson the pain. Novices tend to stay until the the excruciating feeling is felt before they move. A good example of this concept iriminage. One of my instructors does his iriminage directly at the throat. The first time I thought that it was an accident {cough, cough...}. By the third time I knew that is was by design {feel a migraine coming on}. Come the fourth time, I was moving backwards to get ahead of the arm and have been doing it ever since.
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Old 01-10-2006, 04:34 PM   #23
jester
 
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Post Re: the pins

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Pins don't have to be painful unless they are whacked on full speed or incorrectly. Ideally a pin is painful to struggle against but not to go with (in reality, if someone with no experience feels pain they don't have a clue where to move or go to; and often they feel no pain at all due to adrenalin).
Exactly!!
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Old 01-10-2006, 06:33 PM   #24
eyrie
 
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Re: the pins

Hmmm... I don't think so...

Ever tried jujitsu or chin-na?

Ignatius
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Old 01-10-2006, 07:40 PM   #25
Ketsan
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Re: the pins

We're told not to show the pain, except obviously for the tap. As time goes on this gets easier and easier as your wrists get more supple. Don't tell your Sensei this though.
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