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Old 01-06-2006, 06:43 AM   #1
Taliesin
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Opportunity to Resurrect American

Democracy

One of the things that has been in the news over here is the ever expanding Congressional Scandal about the money they recieved from one particulat lobbyist.

Isn't this a golden opportunity for the American Government and legislature get out from under the thumb of Big Business.

Imagine a Congressman, Senator even President who didn't put his contributors first.

So the big question is how can this be done.

Firstly I would suggest two matters that work quite well over here in the UK.

Firstly that there is a legal cap on the amount any candidate can spend during a campaign.

Secondly there should be a manditory maximum limit of the amount of TV/Radio airtime a candidate can purchase. (eg 10 mins prime time and 15 mins non-prime time).

This would mean that politicians would no longer be so dependant on their contributors that they forget their constituents.

Secondly it would mean both candidates get a fair and equall opportunity to put their arguments forward, instead of the one with Corporate backing drowning out his opponent. (After the right to freedom of expression is a right to equal freedom of expression).

What do you guys over in the states think
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Old 01-06-2006, 11:04 AM   #2
James Davis
 
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

I think term limits are worth a try. If we're unable to get them, then we should try some voter induced term limits. It's not so much about money for some of our representatives, it's about power. We don't need career politicians to send us money for special projects, we need real representatives. The trouble with this idea, is that everybody thinks that every representative should leave except theirs.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:59 PM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Isn't this a golden opportunity for the American Government and legislature get out from under the thumb of Big Business.
California passed all sorts of laws and extra tax burdens on "Big Business" (btw, the US corporations are the most heavily taxed corporations in the world) and sure enough they were able to control Big Business. Turned out that it was the straw that started breaking the camel's back and businesses started leaving California. And with it, jobs. People suddenly remembered that that evil "Big Business" is also what pays peoples' salaries. It was that drastic return to reality that forced the voters to put in "Ahnold". I'm amazed at how the bugaboo about "Big Business" is still a rallying cry for the emotionally unrestrained.
Quote:
Imagine a Congressman, Senator even President who didn't put his contributors first.

So the big question is how can this be done.

Firstly I would suggest two matters that work quite well over here in the UK.

Firstly that there is a legal cap on the amount any candidate can spend during a campaign.

Secondly there should be a manditory maximum limit of the amount of TV/Radio airtime a candidate can purchase. (eg 10 mins prime time and 15 mins non-prime time).

This would mean that politicians would no longer be so dependant on their contributors that they forget their constituents.
Hmmmmm.... so the people whose jobs depend on businesses shouldn't vote in politicians that favor their business employers? Or, said another way, do you think that businesses represent aliens from Mars or "constituents"? Probably a fairer way to do it would be to give some competitive salary to working politicians and cap what they spend, but the idea of a sort of "barely controlled free market" is the essence of the US. It's why we have the lowest unemployment rate, etc. in the free world and why 5% of the world population (the US) produces 25% of all the manufactured goods in the world.
Quote:
Secondly it would mean both candidates get a fair and equall opportunity to put their arguments forward, instead of the one with Corporate backing drowning out his opponent. (After the right to freedom of expression is a right to equal freedom of expression).

What do you guys over in the states think
I think other countries should pull their own weight and get rid of their own problems before they focus on the US's 'problems' so much.

Mike
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Old 01-06-2006, 03:53 PM   #4
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Good points Mike.

I only wish the people in our country (U.S) would look a little more long term and spend a little more interest on the environment. That said, I think we are moving in the right direction...just not fast enough for my liking.
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Old 01-06-2006, 04:04 PM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Worldwide, unless something is done to check the population growth, we're headed in the wrong direction. No matter how much you improve gas mileage, particulate emissions, control of public lands, yada, yada, as the population demands grow on all the resources the environment can only suffer. The Kyoto Treaty was a joke because of its provisions which were too political and if you look at it, not even the EU countries (with the *possible* exception of the UK and maybe Sweden) will ever meet the commitments they made. As long as population continues to grow, there is no real chance of bringing things under control. [steps off soapbox]

Mike
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Old 01-06-2006, 04:31 PM   #6
Neil Mick
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
People suddenly remembered that that evil "Big Business" is also what pays peoples' salaries. It was that drastic return to reality that forced the voters to put in "Ahnold".
Sorry, but this is a myth. Ahnold was put in on a "special election:" begun by an out-of-state Republican attempting an electoral end-run, ultimately won by Ahnold due both to the "wow" factor, to low poll-figures of Grey Davis, and to a slick, media-savvy campaign that was high on style, with almost zero substance.

Quote:
I'm amazed at how the bugaboo about "Big Business" is still a rallying cry for the emotionally unrestrained.
Yes, funny how all the folks got so "emotionally unrestrained" about Enron, isn't it?

Quote:
Hmmmmm.... so the people whose jobs depend on businesses shouldn't vote in politicians that favor their business employers?
Also funny, how you seem to equate "people whose jobs depend upon business," with "high-priced corporate lobbyists whose payola favors have a clear connection to voting records, in Congress?"

Quote:
Or, said another way, do you think that businesses represent aliens from Mars or "constituents"?
I think that corporate lobbyists have entirely too much power in DC, as well as Sacramento. You seem to completely ignore globalization, and the destructive effects of multi-national corporations on 3rd World countries.

Also, I'm wondering why you are treating the obvious corporate favor-machine (that was old in Eisenhower's day...remember the "military-industrial complex?" It didn't go away in the '60's) that runs gov't today as if it were some sort of special-interest group for a local Chamber of Commerce...it just ain't so, Virginia.

Quote:
Probably a fairer way to do it would be to give some competitive salary to working politicians and cap what they spend, but the idea of a sort of "barely controlled free market" is the essence of the US.
Hmm...an interesting idea. Needs a little expounding, tho. Where do the campaign finances come in? Or are campaign finances totally verboten, in your model?

Quote:
It's why we have the lowest unemployment rate, etc. in the free world and why 5% of the world population (the US) produces 25% of all the manufactured goods in the world.
I'm betting that China now exceeds us, in mfgr'd goods.

Quote:
I think other countries should pull their own weight and get rid of their own problems before they focus on the US's 'problems' so much.

Mike
I think that OUR country should pull its own weight and practice what it preaches...establish a REAL, ACTUAL democracy in THIS country...before it goes around the world, preaching its faux gospel of liberty and freedom, ad nauseum...to everyone else.
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Old 01-06-2006, 06:37 PM   #7
Mike Sigman
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Sorry, but this is a myth. Ahnold was put in on a "special election:" begun by an out-of-state Republican attempting an electoral end-run, ultimately won by Ahnold due both to the "wow" factor, to low poll-figures of Grey Davis, and to a slick, media-savvy campaign that was high on style, with almost zero substance.
Are you saying that California's loss of businesses was not a major factor in Schwarzeneger's election? It's easy to check. The State government deficits and a loss of businesses was in the news everywhere. Instead of just a "no it wasn't", how something more substantive?
Quote:
Yes, funny how all the folks got so "emotionally unrestrained" about Enron, isn't it?
Yeah, but that's typical of your political posts, Neil... you try to make the exceptions the rule that justifies your outrage. If you're too dumb to admit that in the total picture Enron is a small statistic, why should anyone bother to discuss things with you?
Quote:
Also funny, how you seem to equate "people whose jobs depend upon business," with "high-priced corporate lobbyists whose payola favors have a clear connection to voting records, in Congress?"
Another example of the exception representing the rule so soon? Funny that you don't mention Harry Reid's $60,000 contribution from Indians and casino interests. If you're going to point out the bad guys, don't you think it looks foolish to pretend that it's "the Bush Administration"? It's not just the lobbyists, Neil... the interesting question is whether the Justice Department can suddenly grab more leverage with ALL politicians using the Abramoff case and put the clamps on the "buying votes" stuff. And of course, if you remember your history, Bill Clinton, etc., you're aware that most of the corruption in US history is by the "Democrats" (a la Tammany Hall, etc.)?
Quote:
I think that corporate lobbyists have entirely too much power in DC, as well as Sacramento. You seem to completely ignore globalization, and the destructive effects of multi-national corporations on 3rd World countries.
That's so childish and inane that I won't bother to answer. The 3rd World countries are desperately trying to get into globalization and to get the western powers, particularly the over-protective EU which keeps scuttling the dropping of tariffs, to let them in so they can make some money. You need to do more than a superficial reading of "Doonesbury" to get your philosophies and reasoning. Oh... of course, that's not to belittle the part of your philosophy that appears to derive from the chorus lines of ABBA songs.
Quote:
Also, I'm wondering why you are treating the obvious corporate favor-machine (that was old in Eisenhower's day...remember the "military-industrial complex?" It didn't go away in the '60's) that runs gov't today as if it were some sort of special-interest group for a local Chamber of Commerce...it just ain't so, Virginia.
I love emotional statements, Nick... but was there a single fact in that statement... or did I just miss it among all the emotional ejaculation?
Quote:
I'm betting that China now exceeds us, in mfgr'd goods.
How MUCH do you want to bet, Nick? You're wrong, as usual.
Quote:
I think that OUR country should pull its own weight and practice what it preaches...establish a REAL, ACTUAL democracy in THIS country...before it goes around the world, preaching its faux gospel of liberty and freedom, ad nauseum...to everyone else.
Hey... people like you get to trumpet their hysteria on the internet. How much more freedom can you get than that? Go to Saudi Arabia or Iran and tell them how much better they are, Nick. You'll love the reception.

The problem with guys like you is that you're basically an Archie Bunker Liberal. Combine you with the Archie Bunker Conservatives (who aren't worth torching in the woodpile)... and it's easy to see the REAL problem with the US. We're too tolerant of extremists and smug egoists.


Mike
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:23 AM   #8
Neil Mick
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Are you saying that California's loss of businesses was not a major factor in Schwarzeneger's election? It's easy to check. The State government deficits and a loss of businesses was in the news everywhere. Instead of just a "no it wasn't", how something more substantive?
Yeah, I'm saying just that. I'm sitting here in CA: been sitting here in CA since 1991...so, how long have YOU been living in CA, Mike?

Quote:
Yeah, but that's typical of your political posts, Neil... you try to make the exceptions the rule that justifies your outrage.

oh, brother...here we go...another post'er that tries to tell me how "wrong" I am. Funny, you guys all seem to run for cover, the second I mention three syllables...you ready?

WHERE'S. THE. BEEF???

(translation: now that Bush LIED about wmd, AS I SAID HE WAS,,,where is all your Conservative bravado, now? Where is it, now that whole legions of Republican's in Congress and the Executive are getting pelted with imminent subpoena's...? Oh, never mind...)

Quote:
If you're too dumb
Yep, soo typical. When the rhetoric and the facts run out: resort to insult.

NEXT!

Quote:
to admit that in the total picture Enron is a small statistic, why should anyone bother to discuss things with you?
You know, after that last "dumb" remark: I'm tempted to retort back, how utterly "stupid" a commentator must be, to suggest that "Enron" is simply some sort of statistic.

Buddy, I'm sitting in the state, that was the main victim of Enron's
shenanigan's. I had to sit through the false blackouts, created because some yahoo's figured out a way to make money, at taxpayer expense.

At least one person died because of those blackouts. Perhaps, if he could speak, he might disagree with your assessment of Enron, as a "small statistic...?"

Quote:
Another example of the exception representing the rule so soon? Funny that you don't mention Harry Reid's $60,000 contribution from Indians and casino interests. If you're going to point out the bad guys, don't you think it looks foolish to pretend that it's "the Bush Administration"?
My friend: you are in SERIOUS need of some education viz, globilization and privatization.

Quote:
It's not just the lobbyists, Neil... the interesting question is whether the Justice Department can suddenly grab more leverage with ALL politicians using the Abramoff case and put the clamps on the "buying votes" stuff.
Oh stop. This Presidency is attempting the largest power-grab in history. You ignore all this at your own peril.

Quote:
And of course, if you remember your history, Bill Clinton, etc., you're aware that most of the corruption in US history is by the "Democrats" (a la Tammany Hall, etc.)?
A drop in the bucket, compared to what's ultimately going to go down. How many BILLIONS were lost so far, in the black hole of Iraqi "Reconstruction??" And you come here and talk about Tamany Hall??

But, lest you infer that I'm a Clinton supporter: I'm not. Sure, Clinton was corrupt and set up the "horror that is BushCo." Is this some sort of "excuse?"

Not in my book.

Quote:
That's so childish and inane that I won't bother to answer.
Good, because so far, your answers haven't hit High School level, yet.

Quote:
The 3rd World countries are desperately trying to get into globalization and to get the western powers, particularly the over-protective EU which keeps scuttling the dropping of tariffs, to let them in so they can make some money.
And this makes it OK, why?

Quote:
You need to do more than a superficial reading of "Doonesbury" to get your philosophies and reasoning.
You need to do more than a superficial reading of my posts. So far, your diatribes are little better than superficial labelling, with little basis in reality.

Quote:
.. of course, that's not to belittle the part of your philosophy that appears to derive from the chorus lines of ABBA songs.
You lost me with the ABBA reference...sorry, not a group I keep up with. But please: do go on and regale this poor Californian on how California politics works: all the while telling me how ignorant I am...it's SO enlightening!

Quote:
I love emotional statements, Nick...
I love people who get my NAME right....Mike.

Quote:
but was there a single fact in that statement... or did I just miss it among all the emotional ejaculation?
Yeah, you just plain missed it. It's the simple truth that lobbyists are a major influence in DC. Or, are you too caught up in the need to make a quippy reponse, to see this obvious point?

Quote:
How MUCH do you want to bet, Nick? You're wrong, as usual.
Yet another Conservative possessed of that crystal ball that reveals everything. "You're wrong, as usual."

Listen, I don't know your age, your experience in life, or JACK, for that matter. All I know about you is that you come on here, and try to tell me that the earth is flat.

Newsflash, boyo: if you knew JACK about Beltway politics,,,you'd know that lobbyists are king.

I find it the height of amusement, that you'd even bother to contend with me on this point.

Oooh, the horror, the horror! :O :O

Quote:
Hey... people like you
As opposed, of course: to "people like you??"

Quote:
get to trumpet their hysteria on the internet.
*Looks around*

HEY, SOMEONE TAP THIS GUY ON THE SHOULDER AND WHISPER IN HIS EAR THAT THINGS ARE NOT GOIN' ROSY; THAT WE WERE NOT GREETED IN IRAQ WITH FLOWERS AND MUSIC, OK???

because...SOMEONE is in serious reality-disconnect mode,,,and I suspect that it isn't me!

(altho,,,I could be wrong...it HAS happened before!)

Quote:
How much more freedom can you get than that?
GOSH! WOW!!!! WHAT FREEDOM I have, huh?? The freedom to write my ideas on a virtual wall, that will be mostly ignored!!!

WHOAH!!! Why, that's almost as good as a specially-designated free-speech Zone!!!!

Quote:
Go to Saudi Arabia or Iran and tell them how much better they are, Nick.
Is there some malady of your monitor, where you have problems seeing my name??

Sheesh.

Quote:
You'll love the reception.
Ah. yes: the usual "if you don't like America: why don't you leave it??" line. Gotta hand it to you, Mike: you're hittin' all the ditto-head lines, here.

You got any original ideas, tho? These old straw-men are gettin'...well,,,,old.

Quote:
The problem with guys like you is that you're basically an Archie Bunker Liberal.
The problem with guys like you is you're basically low on substance: high on name-calling. Have you a real point, here?

Quote:
Combine you with the Archie Bunker Conservatives (who aren't worth torching in the woodpile)... and it's easy to see the REAL problem with the US. We're too tolerant of extremists and smug egoists.
Nope, thought not. You're just here to slander and name-call.

Thanks for playing, tho. You have a nice day.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-07-2006 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 01-07-2006, 08:38 AM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Listen, I don't know your age, your experience in life, or JACK, for that matter.
I think that's a pretty accurate assessment of the usual basis you post from. Nick.

Mike
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:24 AM   #10
mj
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
..." (btw, the US corporations are the most heavily taxed corporations in the world) ... It's why we have the lowest unemployment rate, etc. in the free world and why 5% of the world population (the US) produces 25% of all the manufactured goods in the world..
Any time you want to provide proof for this steaming pile of nonsense, feel free

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Old 01-07-2006, 11:32 AM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Sorry, Johnston.... look it up. I've already seen the level of your scholarship and debate on other threads. It's an error that I see you now, since I briefly removed you from my ignore list on one thread and forgot to put you back on. [[CLICK]]
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:50 PM   #12
Erik
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Isn't this a golden opportunity for the American Government and legislature get out from under the thumb of Big Business.
One can hope, but as you can see by this thread, neither the left, nor the right, is really interested in solving the problem. One wants to blather idiotly about all the evils that is the USA and the other, once again, rails against taxes and the evils of regulation without which we'd be driving down dirt roads and couldn't see 3 feet because of all the smog.

By the way, term limits pretty much suck here in California and didn't change a damn thing. If anything the partisanship ineptness has gotten worse.

Quote:
Imagine a Congressman, Senator even President who didn't put his contributors first.
I completely fail to grasp why this is allowed to go on. I'm doubtful that I could get 30 seconds of a congressman's attention. I doubt, in fact, that anyone can without antying up the donations, big ones. It's asinine that we tolerate this.

Quote:
Firstly that there is a legal cap on the amount any candidate can spend during a campaign.
I'm behind this but it's been, I think, ruled a violation of free speech. Money constitutes free speech in this country, like it or not.

Quote:
Secondly there should be a manditory maximum limit of the amount of TV/Radio airtime a candidate can purchase. (eg 10 mins prime time and 15 mins non-prime time).
Whole hearted agreement here. There are some issues therein but I couldn't agree with this idea more. I've argued for it, for years, but again, there is that issue of free speech. I think we'd have to pass a law that requires a certain amount of unpaid advertising to anyone who meets some minimal standard.

Quote:
This would mean that politicians would no longer be so dependant on their contributors that they forget their constituents.
I don't think they forget their constituents so much as they remember certain of their constituents first.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:23 PM   #13
Neil Mick
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think that's a pretty accurate assessment of the usual basis you post from. Nick.

Mike
I know you are, but what am I?
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:24 PM   #14
Neil Mick
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Sorry, Johnston.... look it up.
Translation: I haven't the slightest proof to back my contention.

next.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:32 PM   #15
mj
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Pretty easy wasn't it?

I said 'prove that with facts please'. You gotta see the weak points.

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Old 01-07-2006, 01:54 PM   #16
Neil Mick
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
Pretty easy wasn't it?
Too easy. Ask him for facts, he folds like a cheap piece of origami.
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:05 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Too easy. Ask him for facts, he folds like a cheap piece of origami.
Heh. Here's a Left-Wing Loon (which is just as bad as a Right Wing Loon, to be impartial) that tries to make the argument that only a CaliforniaLeft-Wing Fanatic can tell the state of business in California, while seeming unaware of the myriad economics articles on the loss of businesses in California.... and suddenly you're talking about "facts"? Are you seriously unaware of the loss of business in California that was at a peak before Musclehead took over as governor? I really think you are. I think you honestly only hear what you want to hear... which is typical of a fanatic.

Oh... and do the math on the US population versus the size of the planetary population... very easy to do. US manufacturing of hard goods... look it up. You guys who emote and think it's the same as fact, you should take up New Age Aikido. Oh.... sorry... you already do it?

Mike
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Old 01-07-2006, 05:00 PM   #18
mj
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... we have the lowest unemployment rate, etc. in the free world.....5% of the world population (the US) produces 25% of all the manufactured goods in the world...

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Old 01-07-2006, 10:30 PM   #19
Neil Mick
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Heh. Here's a Left-Wing Loon...
Yawwn. Wake me up when the intelligent portion of the conversation commences.
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Old 01-07-2006, 10:50 PM   #20
Neil Mick
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
One can hope, but as you can see by this thread, neither the left, nor the right, is really interested in solving the problem. One wants to blather idiotly about all the evils that is the USA
It's so good to see that paragon of the Center, Erik Haselhofer himself, grace these humble virtual corridors. How ya doin, Erik?

But, even tho my good friend Erik can talk a great deal: he provides little documentation, to back up his words.

"Blather idiotically about the evils that is the USA??"

Oh yes: I suppose that networks of secret prisons and Presidential end-runs around the use of torture constitute, in Erik's book, as something less than evil.

Ah well: it's a mighty big world out there...plenty of opinions allowed...*shrug*

Quote:
By the way, term limits pretty much suck here in California and didn't change a damn thing. If anything the partisanship ineptness has gotten worse.
Actually, old chum: the Democratic rank and file showed fine style in trumping Ahnold's "special election." The CA Dem's, IMO: are well-organized. I just think the governor's too powerful.

Quote:
I completely fail to grasp why this is allowed to go on. I'm doubtful that I could get 30 seconds of a congressman's attention. I doubt, in fact, that anyone can without antying up the donations, big ones. It's asinine that we tolerate this.
And so, you see! We CAN agree on something!

But to answer to the original post, yeah: I am all in favor of campaign finance reform. I think that, at heart: this problem is the root of corruption within Congress.

Also, I think that third parties are an important element missing in this country. Not to suggest that a 3rd party candidate is even remotely possible, at this point: but 3rd parties widen the topics of debate, educate the public and occasionally do something really positive (i.,e., David Cobb of the Green Party demanding an Ohio recount in '04, etc).

Finally, I like the notion of equal airtime for candidates. Once upon a time I remember a debate where ALL candidates (there were about 6 or 7) of ALL parties got their say on TV. That was a long time ago...

There should also be some sort of monitoring, or fact-checking of sleeze and lies put out during campaigns with heavy fines laid, for obvious lies (John McCain and the black love-child thing, for example )

But it's going to take a lot more than this scandal to get big business out of gov't. Still, it will be great fun to watch the mighty topple...

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-07-2006 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 01-08-2006, 09:54 AM   #21
Erik
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Heh. Here's a Left-Wing Loon (which is just as bad as a Right Wing Loon, to be impartial) that tries to make the argument that only a CaliforniaLeft-Wing Fanatic can tell the state of business in California, while seeming unaware of the myriad economics articles on the loss of businesses in California.... and suddenly you're talking about "facts"? Are you seriously unaware of the loss of business in California that was at a peak before Musclehead took over as governor? I really think you are. I think you honestly only hear what you want to hear... which is typical of a fanatic.
Mike, I do think this is somewhat hard to make a case for. Arnold and Gray Davis are scarily similar in their policies. I'd be willing to debate that Arnold made any magical changes but he did get through workers comp reform and Gray Davis, who tried, couldn't. Our problem has been, and continues to be, an entrenched Democratically controlled legislature in juxtaposition to the national level where we have too many Republicans. When you get to make your own rules, ie. district designing for dummies, you pretty much get to pick and choose which party wins where.

Also, Mike, debating certain ideas gives credibility where none is due. It can take a decent topic and thread, like this one, straight into looneyville, the land where science, facts and critical thinking are not allowed, which is the intention of our resident troll. My recommendation is to just ignore it.
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Old 01-08-2006, 10:11 AM   #22
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
Mike, I do think this is somewhat hard to make a case for. Arnold and Gray Davis are scarily similar in their policies. I'd be willing to debate that Arnold made any magical changes but he did get through workers comp reform and Gray Davis, who tried, couldn't. Our problem has been, and continues to be, an entrenched Democratically controlled legislature in juxtaposition to the national level where we have too many Republicans. When you get to make your own rules, ie. district designing for dummies, you pretty much get to pick and choose which party wins where.
I totally agree with your assessments. And I never thought Meathead would be able to get very far in a Super-Left-entrenched State. My original comment was about the cartoon-like absurdities Neil Mick uses in his arguments. The basic Leftist approach seems to be "extreme distortions of the facts are OK because we have a noble cause in mind". The basic Far-Rightist approach seems to be "we need to impress our values on society because they are ordained by God". I tend not to go either way. My sinful view is "we behave essentially exactly like laboratory rats in our reactions, so I'll bet we're essentially just animals".... that irritates both the Left and Right.
Quote:
Also, Mike, debating certain ideas gives credibility where none is due. It can take a decent topic and thread, like this one, straight into looneyville, the land where science, facts and critical thinking are not allowed, which is the intention of our resident troll. My recommendation is to just ignore it.
I think anybody that even lightly glances through AikiWeb realizes that Neil Mick is a whack... prodding his reflexes is just good fun.

Mike
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Old 01-08-2006, 03:09 PM   #23
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
the land where science, facts and critical thinking are not allowed, which is the intention of our resident troll. My recommendation is to just ignore it.
Coming from the invective-meister of hit-and-runs: that's really rich. Ya just gotta wonder about a guy who claims he's so turned off by trolls, yet exhibits all the tendencies of trollish behavior. Just look at a few posts from his hit-parade:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...447#post118447

Quote:
Our leadership, on both sides, stinks in this country. It's probably the only thing I agree with the troll from Santa Cruz on.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8837

Quote:
It would suck to drive down to Santa Cruz, for instance, and find Neil Mick teaching rather than Linda Holiday. You'd probably have to kill yourself and I don't want that.
The record's all there, so you can stop pretending, Erik. You're fooling no one but yourself. I know, I know: you're just peeved because there were no wmd's found in Iraq. Just let it go, man! I KNOW it's hard, but we all gotta be wrong, sometimes!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The basic Leftist approach seems to be "extreme distortions of the facts are OK because we have a noble cause in mind".
If I were even half-convinced that you seriously believed this, instead of your (so-far) usual attempts to get some sort of rise, I'd answer this point. But so far, all I see from your thinking-process is a few choice labels (mostly intended to shut down debate), and a few quavery facts that you cannot even be bothered to document.

But since you're not: you get my stock response... *shrug*

Quote:
I think anybody that even lightly glances through AikiWeb realizes that Neil Mick is a whack...
In total contrast, of course: to your well-documented and wise retorts:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Oh... and do the math on the US population versus the size of the planetary population... very easy to do. US manufacturing of hard goods... look it up. You guys who emote and think it's the same as fact, you should take up New Age Aikido. Oh.... sorry... you already do it?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-08-2006 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 01-08-2006, 05:21 PM   #24
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think anybody that even lightly glances through AikiWeb realizes that Neil Mick is a whack...
If that is so, he's not the only one whose posting style speaks volumes about him.
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Old 01-08-2006, 06:40 PM   #25
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
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Re: Opportunity to Resurrect American

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
The CA Dem's, IMO: are well-organized. I just think the governor's too powerful.
Neil, I agree with you on a lot (and I'm not a fan of the gropen-furher) - but the dems were running around like headless chickens during the recall. Don't you remember the 'vote against the recall, but vote for me' democratic candidate? And none of the rest of the party was much more coherent.

Mike: The burden of proof is on the claimant. Sources and *dates* for those numbers if they're to be considered in the discussion. And I don't think you could step off your soapbox if you wanted to - it's grafted to your feet.

So, for that matter, is Neil's.

-LK
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