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Old 10-24-2006, 08:07 PM   #51
Michael Varin
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Oh, I almost forgot.

I think sometimes we give the likes of Saito, Kisshomaru, and Shioda too much credit for their classifications. They certainly did some good things, but they weren't perfect.

Michael
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:24 PM   #52
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hello Rupert,
What interests me is the way that Kisshomaru Ueshiba distilled the wealth of waza in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938) into the kihon waza of his 1957 volume. If you look at this volume and also the books published by Koichi Tohei, you will see the evidence of the creation of a system based, not on how people attack, which was the main organizing theme of Budo Resnhu, but on the waza themselves.
My old Kyushin-do teacher was critical of 'Traditional' Aikido for 'not naming the attack. His main point was that in basic training you should name the attack (shomen-uchi), not the technique (ikkyo), and certainly not both (shomen-uchi ikkyo). For myself, I suggest that a training system ought follow a logical approach:

1 name the attack and technique (easy)
2 name the attack (harder)
3 name neither (harder still)

Of course, many do this. The problem is, there is often no system to it. Aikido still really needs a 'method' ... in many places the system is just too random - rather, there is no system. And if there is a system, who is there to validate it?

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Old 10-24-2006, 11:54 PM   #53
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Mr. Goldsbury,

"though you would be surprised at how many test candidates cannot tell the difference between 5-kyou and 1-kyou. I think that 5-kyou, like 1-kyou, is still fundamentally an elbow pin."

What exactly is it that you mean by this statement? What is it that makes it so hard for test candidates to understand the difference between ikkyo and gokyo? Do you mean they don't make the correct grip, or they try and use omote takedowns, or they use the wrong finishing control? Is it something other then these 3 things? If it's not one of these 3 things then I to have a hard time differentiating gokyo from Ikkyo, and I would like to be enlightened as to the difference's. Also what do you mean by saying it's fundamentally an elbow "pin". I would call a pin something that holds someone to a fixed point, and I would feel that gokyo doesn't actually do this at all.

Thank you
-Chris Hein
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:56 AM   #54
Ian Upstone
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Interesting thread!

I'm also intrigued about gokyo as it's not one we cover very often, and I'd like to know if any/all of these conclusions I've just come to are incorrect or need reclarifying...

#1. Gokyo seems to rest entirely upon gripping ukes wrist with nages thumb nearest the hand, without this, we're pretty much doing ikkyo.

#2. Because of #1, gokyo is only available where uke's attack is non-gripping (i.e. can only be applied on strikes, with and without a tanto, and perhaps the 'dori' attacks that have yet to get a grip on nage (which are pretty much a tsuki at that point anyway) - which in turn reinforces the tanto aspect of the technique.

#3. If uke does get a grip, nage would now grasp the back of uke's hand rather than grasp below the wrist, (not that you would at this point!) i.e. gokyo is pretty much redundant if uke gets a grip - which again, ties in with the tanto aspect.

#4. Techniques such shomenuchi gokyo omote are not possible, as nage needs to reach ukes wrist from the offset, (and, assuming nage is entering as uke raises their arm for the shomenuchi, the wrist we are going for is out of reach for those of us without an orangutanesque reach)
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:59 AM   #55
Charles Hill
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that the way the gokyo pin is usually done is wrong. Anyone with a bit of strength is going to be able to resist the elbow bend. For me, it makes more sense to consider putting pressure on uke's thumb to take away the knife to be the first/basic move. This might likely be resisted by uke trying to pull his arm in. Using this resistence, one could then do the trad. gokyo pin without forcing it.

Also, Shirata Sensei had a very different version of gokyo, shown in the book The Way of Harmony. Shirata Sensei's system, taught to me by John Stevens Sensei consists of series of techniques, similar to the Daito ryu system described above. For example, katadori nikyo was not a singular technique, rather a series of 10 different variations.

Charles
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:21 AM   #56
David Humm
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Re: Gokyo-why?

From an physical application point of view; I've applied this particular waza during training on co-operative uke and obviously had no problems, I've also disarmed a prisoner who was fully resisting and again, had no problems achieving the bend in elbow and wrist however; to get to that point I needed to use a reasonable atemi with my own elbow in to and between the prisoner's own shoulder blades, this had a very effective result of making him flinch and relax his resistance to the technique, once the elbow was raised and the wrist brought directly underneath (beyond a right-angle toward the shoulder) he instantly released the knife, and suffered minor tissue damage to the tendons and muscles of the wrist and forearm, not to mention a painful upper back.

For the classical application of gokyo ude nobashi, i keep uke's arm straight (as in ikkyo ude osae) however my leading hand is reversed (as previously described) with my thumb close to uke's wrist (roughly where the pulse would be). From a practical point of view, I'm not at all concerned how I get to the end result providing I'm safe and most importantly, not cut too badly.

Regards
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:16 PM   #57
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Charles,
While I would totally agree with you, that if Uke knew it were comming it would be very difficult to bend his arm, if it came when he wasen't exspecting it, or if used in conjunction with an atemi as Dave suggests it has validity. Ikkyo, Nikkyo, and Sankyo will all find difficulting in "working" if uke can gear up to resist them, however they are still valid because of the "when" they are applyed and not nessisarily the "how" they are applied. Putting pressure on the thumb would deffinatly change the technique I was taught was gokyo.

-Chris
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Old 10-26-2006, 12:27 PM   #58
odudog
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Ian Upstone wrote:
....#4. Techniques such shomenuchi gokyo omote are not possible, as nage needs to reach ukes wrist from the offset, (and, assuming nage is entering as uke raises their arm for the shomenuchi, the wrist we are going for is out of reach for those of us without an orangutanesque reach)
Shomenuchi gokkyo is possible, if however, you can't reach the wrist when doing okuri ashi then you need to either wait for the hand to come down further so the wrist is then possible to be grabbed or do a different entry such as tenkan which will make the wrist possible to grab. If two of my Senseis can do it an they are both short, then the technique is possible. Plus, O'Sensei was even way shorter than my two instructors.
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:34 AM   #59
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Hello Chris,

I will try to answer your questions, but in some cases, I really do not know the answer.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Mr. Goldsbury,

"though you would be surprised at how many test candidates cannot tell the difference between 5-kyou and 1-kyou. I think that 5-kyou, like 1-kyou, is still fundamentally an elbow pin."

What exactly is it that you mean by this statement? What is it that makes it so hard for test candidates to understand the difference between ikkyo and gokyo?
Basically, I mean that in dan examinations when candidates are asked to execute Shoumen/Yokomen uchi 5-kyou in knife attacks, they respond with 1-kyou. I have no idea why they cannot tell the difference.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Do you mean they don't make the correct grip, or they try and use omote takedowns, or they use the wrong finishing control? Is it something other then these 3 things? If it's not one of these 3 things then I to have a hard time differentiating gokyo from Ikkyo, and I would like to be enlightened as to the difference's.
PAG. If you can do 5-kyou ura, then you can certainly do 5-kyou omote, whether from Shoumen or yokomen uchi. The usual problem is that the grip on the wrist is applied far too early and is an 1-kyou grip.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Also what do you mean by saying it's fundamentally an elbow "pin". I would call a pin something that holds someone to a fixed point, and I would feel that gokyo doesn't actually do this at all.
.
PAG. Well, I think the locus of 1-kyou is the elbow, but many people focus on the upper arm, between the elbow and the shoulder, or on the wrist. In consequence, if the elbow is properly 'pinned' during the waza, the pinning of the wrist can easily vary (between 1-kyou or 5-kyou, and also including 2, 3, and 4-kyou).

Thank you
-Chris Hein[/quote]

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-27-2006, 09:15 AM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Hi Peter,

When you perform gokyo from shomenuchi, do you do the beginning of ikkyo first, then take gokyo grip? Kind of like many versions of nikkyo, or sankyo? I always find it easier to off-balance using ikkyo, then maintain the off-balance while I take the proper control, then complete the waza.

For example, sankyo omote, kihon...
Enter, control elbow and wrist,
open step / body change while cutting down,
shuffle, flip the wrist while controling the fingers,
assume control with hand close to uke, control elbow with hand that was controling fingers,
cross step in for the pin, using uke's palm against your hip.

This means that I don't have to reach for the control with tall uke, and uke is bent over and very off-balance during any "grip changes". Of course, most controls can be done "cutting" as opposed to gripping, but then we are not talking "kihon"...

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-27-2006 at 09:18 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-27-2006, 10:46 AM   #61
David Humm
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
...When you perform gokyo from shomenuchi, do you do the beginning of ikkyo first, then take gokyo grip?
This is how I've always achieved gokyo, by using ikkyo as the principle for opening up other waza.

Regards
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:16 PM   #62
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Gokyo-why?

I do it two ways:

1. Start as standard ikkyo and change your way towards gokyo. Deal more with the elbow during ikkyo and don't catch the wrist until gokyo 'reveals' itself. Of course, if you find yourself catching the wrist as ikkyo,then just do ikkyo - it makes no sense to change.
2. Avoid a right handed strike to the inside by moving ot the right and take uke's lowered arm with your own right, palm down. As uke raises up after the strike, start gokyo.
2b. Or, non-standard - as you avoid to the right, cut uke's arm down with your own tegatana, then strike to the face quickly, and as he raises to protect himeself, take gokyo - I like this one best as it is more practical - the technique creates itself - it works for me anyway.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 10-27-2006 at 01:18 PM.

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Old 10-28-2006, 07:29 AM   #63
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Peter,

When you perform gokyo from shomenuchi, do you do the beginning of ikkyo first, then take gokyo grip? Kind of like many versions of nikkyo, or sankyo? I always find it easier to off-balance using ikkyo, then maintain the off-balance while I take the proper control, then complete the waza.

Best,
Ron
Yes. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is the base for this family of katame-waza (but 5-kyou and 6-kyou are really extensions of 1-kyou and 2-kyou, respectively).

Best,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:50 AM   #64
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Yes. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is the base for this family of katame-waza (but 5-kyou and 6-kyou are really extensions of 1-kyou and 2-kyou, respectively).

Best,

PAG
Or is 2-kyou an extension of 6-kyou?

Rock
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Old 11-26-2006, 12:03 AM   #65
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote:
Or is 2-kyou an extension of 6-kyou?

Rock
Hello Rocky,

Well, it wasn't for Morihei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba when the book Aikido was first published in 1957. There 1, 2, 3 and 4-kyou are all described. There is no mention of 5-kyou or 6-kyou. So, if they were practised at all--and there is evidence from the 1938 Budo volume that 5-kyou was practised, they were not considered to be core kihon waza.

Best,

PAG

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Old 11-26-2006, 05:18 PM   #66
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hello Rocky,

Well, it wasn't for Morihei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba when the book Aikido was first published in 1957. There 1, 2, 3 and 4-kyou are all described. There is no mention of 5-kyou or 6-kyou. So, if they were practised at all--and there is evidence from the 1938 Budo volume that 5-kyou was practised, they were not considered to be core kihon waza.

Best,

PAG
Hey Peter,

I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Kihon Waza but rather in mechanical terms.

Rock
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