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Old 10-21-2006, 07:19 AM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Gokyo-why?

I would be interested in seeing any evidence that Morihei Ueshiba taught this particular waza in the Kobukan, before WWII. He probably did, but never gave it a name. Likewise, the waza does not appear among the waza highlighted in Aikido, the book published in Japanese by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in 1957. However, it does appear in the English version of this book, published in 1975, so I suspect that 5-kyou, like kaiten-nage, was added to the repertoire of kihon waza by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

In my opinion, as a waza, 5-kyou is the same as 1-kyou, except for the hand grip. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is a pin on the elbow; 2-kyou is a pin at the base of the thumb; 3-kyou is a pin of the wrist and outer fingers; 4-kyou is a pin of the bone or nerve centres in the wrist; 5-kyou is a pin on the elbow, but with a weapon held with one hand (unlike 1-kyou, which envisages an attack with a Japanese sword, held with both hands). And then there is 6-kyou, which is a variation of 2-kyou, but where uke's arm is kept straight.

I encountered 6-kyou only in the USA, in Kanai Sensei's dojo, 4 years after my first encounter with aikido.

Best wishes to all,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-21-2006, 04:07 PM   #27
Jeff Sodeman
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Not really an answer to your post but...

Rokyo (6) I generally see it in tantodori more than open hand, and most of the people I've talked to about the technique refer to it as hijiosae instead of rokyo. Likewise gokyo also seems to be more related to weapon takeaway.

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Old 10-21-2006, 04:10 PM   #28
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Hey Peter,
Thanx, that was the kind of info I was looking for. Funny thing about 6th kyo (Rokyo) is I would drop teaching 5th kyo as separately named technique Except I like calling rokyo rokyo, but with out a Gokyo, it seems silly to call Rokyo Rokyo.

So it is your belief that gokyo was named by Kisshomaru, and added later. Anyone else have any info on Gokyo (5 kyo)

Thanx
-Chris
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Old 10-21-2006, 04:14 PM   #29
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Jeff,
You posted at the same time as me. We do lots of rokyo from empty handed stuff. Rokyo is kinid of a funny one, seems like rokyo is one that gets called by lots of differn't names and done differnly often. Also Rokyo is one of the few Aikido techniques that I find often useful in actual fights that I have been in.

-Chris
Please don't let this take us off subject, anymore about gokyo?
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Old 10-21-2006, 04:14 PM   #30
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Re: Gokyo-why?

I can't comment on the origins of gokyo. I can say however that I've studied this waza along with the remaining osae since the day I started training.

I've always understood that from a characteristic point of view, gokyo is identified from other osae in the making through the gripping of the wrist and placement of tori's thumb roughly where uke's pulse would be.

I've also understood gokyo to be particularly related to knife defense and this has been reinforced several times when the technique has only been requested in gradings when uke is holding a tanto, indeed I've seen occasions when all of the osae waza are presented (with empty handed attacks) and a tanto requested and used specifically for gokyo.

As an ending, I don't consider gokyo to be particularly effective at pinning or immobilization, I speak from experience having removed a shank from a prisoner using this very technique however, whilst great pain can be induced upon the joints, there isn't IMHO enough control over center for it to be considered an effective immobilization hence, this further reinforces my opinion that gokyo is a means to an end in terms of disarming a knife wielding attacker and not much more.
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Old 10-21-2006, 06:05 PM   #31
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Re: Gokyo-why?

That's coz you're not doing it this way:
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Old 10-21-2006, 06:14 PM   #32
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
That's coz you're not doing it this way:
To whom are you addressing? Me, the origonal poster or other contributors to the thread ? Why not be a bit more specific, you know join in the discussion.

The technique you presented in the image included with your post is remarkably similar to one of the few "approved" methods of control and restaint that I was taught as a Prison Officer and, I've taught to my aikido students as a 'standing' version of gokyo.
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Old 10-21-2006, 07:33 PM   #33
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Sorry Dave, yes, I was addressing your post.

I see 1-kyo to 6-kyo as principles rather than techniques. 5-kyo is a basic forearm stretch (ude no bashi), utilizing the elbow as the "base" and the flexion of the wrist as a lever against itself. There's a nice variation (a reverse gokyo lock) used as nikyo counter...

Ignatius
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Old 10-21-2006, 09:18 PM   #34
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Re: Gokyo-why?

I agree with you Dave, I think Gokyo isn't a very effective pin, or rather the gokyo pin is not an effective pin for truly controlling a person by yourself. However if you have a buddy who can sit on the knife wielding attacker while you can apply the gokyo "pin" to disarm your assailant, it seems to have some realistic applications. I've personally never actually disarmed anyone with it (in an actual confrontation), but it seems like it might work.

I can't help but think there is something about Gokyo that I'm missing, the points that I have come to understand as differentiating gokyo from ikkyo don't seem to be strong enough to me to warrant another technique/principle.

Anyone else?

Thanks
-Chris
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Old 10-22-2006, 05:46 AM   #35
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: Gokyo-why?

My teacher Morihiro Saito Sensei explained that the bent-arm form in the osae of Gokyo was difficult to do if your opponent was strong. The alternative osae was to take uke down, and when bringing uke's shoulder down for the submission, you keep the control on his elbow with the inside hand. Keeping your outer knee up, you can pressure uke's elbow by keeping the wrist-holding hand - and thereby also the blade - in check above your outer leg (knee) with the blade under control and facing away from you, and at the same time putting pressure on uke's elbow until he releases the blade.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard
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Old 10-22-2006, 05:59 AM   #36
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I would be interested in seeing any evidence that Morihei Ueshiba taught this particular waza in the Kobukan, before WWII. He probably did, but never gave it a name. Likewise, the waza does not appear among the waza highlighted in Aikido, the book published in Japanese by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in 1957. However, it does appear in the English version of this book, published in 1975, so I suspect that 5-kyou, like kaiten-nage, was added to the repertoire of kihon waza by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

In my opinion, as a waza, 5-kyou is the same as 1-kyou, except for the hand grip. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is a pin on the elbow; 2-kyou is a pin at the base of the thumb; 3-kyou is a pin of the wrist and outer fingers; 4-kyou is a pin of the bone or nerve centres in the wrist; 5-kyou is a pin on the elbow, but with a weapon held with one hand (unlike 1-kyou, which envisages an attack with a Japanese sword, held with both hands). And then there is 6-kyou, which is a variation of 2-kyou, but where uke's arm is kept straight.

I encountered 6-kyou only in the USA, in Kanai Sensei's dojo, 4 years after my first encounter with aikido.

Best wishes to all,
Dear Peter Goldsbury Sensei,

In the book Budo - Teachings of the Founder of Aikido, on page 60 (photo 80 and 81), O-Sensei is doing Gokyo. The osae is not demonstrated. In Saito Sensei's book Commentary on the 1938 Training Manual of Morihei Ueshiba, Saito Sensei writes: "The Founder said in Budo: Apply Ippo (ikkyo) to this technique. However, in his later years, he changed the technique grabbing his partner's wrist from below as shown above, and called it gokyo urawaza." Saito Sensei's point was that if you used the ikkyo grab when uke was holding a blade, then you wrist was open for a cut. Another point was, even if uke was using a wooden tanto, the weapon could be used to apply a counter-pin (much a in nikyo) to nage's wrist. In Saito Sensei' commentary the pin is not shown. I have written another post in this section regarding the two forms that Saito Sensei taught for the osae.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard
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Old 10-22-2006, 06:45 AM   #37
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Sorry Dave, yes, I was addressing your post.

I see 1-kyo to 6-kyo as principles rather than techniques. 5-kyo is a basic forearm stretch (ude no bashi), utilizing the elbow as the "base" and the flexion of the wrist as a lever against itself. There's a nice variation (a reverse gokyo lock) used as nikyo counter...
Hi mate.. thanks for the clarification however, from a kihon point of view, no I'm not "doing" gokyo ude nobashi as you suggest, I am teaching as illustrated in my post, that's me making the pin on one of my students, the way gokyo was taught to me. The standing method as depicted in your post isn't something I've ever been taught formally in an aikido class (not to say it doesn't exist in aikido) but it's something I've taught to my students based upon my Prison Service training.

Fundamentally I don't see many of the osae waza as effective immobiliasations, yes they can induce (varying degrees of) control over uke's center but someone fully resisting may well be able to find their way out of these "pins".. I know because I've tried them in one form or another during my work and not all of them are ideal ways of fully restraining someone who really doesn't want to be restrained.

Getting back to gokyo, I too would like to know more about this application's history.
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:32 AM   #38
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Hi mate.. thanks for the clarification however, from a kihon point of view, no I'm not "doing" gokyo ude nobashi as you suggest, I am teaching as illustrated in my post, that's me making the pin on one of my students, the way gokyo was taught to me. The standing method as depicted in your post isn't something I've ever been taught formally in an aikido class (not to say it doesn't exist in aikido) but it's something I've taught to my students based upon my Prison Service training.
Understood. As I said, I see the standard kihon as illustration of basic principles and as "seed" techniques. So, even though such things aren't formally taught in Aikido, generally, it is nonetheless a part of the osaekomi waza family.

I am of the opinion that Aikido is a principle-based martial art, rather than one based on a (limited) technical repertoire. Understanding the principle, therefore allows us to fully appreciate the limitless applications of technique. OTOH, technique-based arts, such as jujitsu, utilize variations of the same principles.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone use the rear hammerlock (ushiro ude garami), whilst transitioning from nikkyo/sankyo into the pin? I realise some may not know what I'm talking about, but it illustrates my point that sometimes, such things aren't explicitly or formally taught in class.

Quote:
Fundamentally I don't see many of the osae waza as effective immobiliasations, yes they can induce (varying degrees of) control over uke's center but someone fully resisting may well be able to find their way out of these "pins".. I know because I've tried them in one form or another during my work and not all of them are ideal ways of fully restraining someone who really doesn't want to be restrained.
I generally agree. They are not particularly effective, as they are taught in Aikido generally, against a fully resistant uke - especially if they're not too concerned about dislocating something. But then the same can be said of small joint manipulation techniques generally....

OTOH, it *may* be possible to do so IF you pin the entire body through the structure like you would in kokyu-dosa...

YMMV

Ignatius
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Old 10-22-2006, 10:56 AM   #39
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Ethan,
Thanx, some enlightening stuff there. My teacher was also one of Saito's students, and your first post Reminds me much of what he (my teacher) would say about gokyo.

What is very interesting to me is your second post, I really need to dig out my copy of budo, I would like to see the reference you're making, but what you're saying, seems to be very significant to me. If I understand you correctly you're saying that originally Saito called a palm up control ippo (Ikkyo) and later said it was called gokyo, is this because Saito decided that a palm up ikkyo should be called a different technique (because of knife techniques or what have you), or because in hind sight he realized his mistake in calling it ippo (ikkyo), because it was in fact "gokyo" as his teacher had taught.

I know a rose is a rose, but what I'm trying to get at here is if Saito decided it was different enough, or if Ueshiba decided it was different enough to merit a different name.

Teo,
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that Aikido is a principal based system. In fact I agree quite strongly, and that's why I wanted to post this question. I personally feel like the criteria that makes up gokyo (as I know it) is not strong enough to merit another principal, so I feel that I may have a lack of understanding as to what gokyo really is. But from what I've read so far, maybe gokyo is more revisionist history then I thought.

Does the Daito Ryu syllabus have a gokyo as a separate named technique as we do? If so does anyone have any information about it's origins?

Thanks, anymore jewels out there?

-Chris
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Old 10-22-2006, 11:29 AM   #40
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Does the Daito Ryu syllabus have a gokyo as a separate named technique as we do? If so does anyone have any information about it's origins?
I'm about to stretch out of my depth a little here but; In my limited understanding of Dai-to Ryu ikkyo (meaning "first teaching") 一教 wasn't a single technique but, a series of about 118 waza within the shoden level, each technique having a particular responce to a particular attack. I doubt, and emphasis doubt that gokyo 五教 existed as a singular waza in Dai-to Ryu. If indeed gokyo did in fact exist, I would suggest it is probably another series of waza as apposed to just one.

I think this exposes a major difference between aikido and Dai-to Ryu, aikido has a limited amount of physical waza which are trained for and utilised in a multitude of situations, attacks, etc yet, Dai-to Ryu has many hundred specific waza, each meant for a particular situation or attack.

Whilst many fundamental principles exist between the two arts, aikido is as we know, by far the 'slimmed down' version in terms of waza which is probably why we have individual techniques named, ikkyo, nikyo and of course gokyo.

Regards

Last edited by David Humm : 10-22-2006 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 10-22-2006, 06:59 PM   #41
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Re: Gokyo-why?

From what I understand, the first 118 techniques make up the hiden mokuroku, of which the first 30 in the set make up ikkajo - comprising 10 idori (suwari), 5 hanza handachi (hanmi hantachi), 10 tachiai (tachi), and 5 ushiro waza. Gokajo comprises of 6 jujitsu techniques in tachiai and 7 subgroups (whatever that means?). [Source: http://www.daito-ryu.com/en/pag4.htm]

Also, from the AJ interview with Katsuyuki Kondo:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=77
Quote:
AJ - What are the main differences between Daito-ryu and aikido?

I don't think there is any difference. In Daito-ryu, too, practice begins and ends with courtesy (rei). And its final goal is the spirit of love and harmony.

AJ - How about technically?

I do not think that there is much difference technically, either. However, we have what we call ikkajo, which consists of thirty different techniques, ten of which are seated, five hanza handachi, ten standing techniques (tachiai) and five rear-attack techniques (ushirodori). Each of these thirty techniques has its own name. In Daito-ryu, the first technique you learn is called ippondori, a difficult technique where you receive, barehanded, the frontal attack of your opponent.

In the traditional martial arts, a secret technique is usually taught at the very beginning. In Daito-ryu, too, we teach a difficult technique first. This ippondori, I believe, has become ikkyo in aikido and also is related to techniques like shomenuchi ikkyo, katatedori ikkyo, ryotedori ikkyo, and so on. Ikkajo consists of t hirty techniques, but only the ippondori technique became ikkyo in aikido. There are twenty-nine other techniques such as gyaku udedori, kurumadaoshi, koshiguruma, and so on. Nikajo also has thirty techniques and only one of them is called nikyo in aikido. And the case is the same for sankyo. Yonkajo includes fifteen techniques and one of them is called yonkyo in aikido. Gokajo has thirteen techniques and one of them is gokyo in aikido. It includes tasudori (techniques against group attacks), tachidori (techniques against a sword), jodori, kasadori, emonodori (techniques against various weapons) and so on, all of which were practiced in the old days.

So we have 118 different techniques, classified as the ikkyo through gokyo series in Daito-ryu. These make up the hiden mokuroku and only five of those techniques were included in aikido. I would like this to be clear, to avoid any misunderstanding.

The difference between aikido and Daito-ryu in the eyes of the general public is that in techniques of Daito-ryu you must break the balance of your opponent the instant you touch him. This is because there is aiki in the technique, which we use to break the balance of the opponent. This is a major characteristic of Daito-ryu. Another characteristic is its use of atemi. This atemi is also a part of aiki in Daito-ryu. Although it is often said that Daito-ryu looks unrefined or is lacking in magnificence, Daito-ryu also has a component called aiki no jutsu (fifty-three techniques) and they are truly wonderful. The aiki no jutsu techniques come after the 118 hiden mokuroku, and they are followed by the hiden ogi, the hiogi, the kaishaku soden, and finally the kaiden techniques.
I think it would be unnecessarily limiting to view ikkyo-gokyo (or rokyo if you include it), as individual techniques as such. True they are an integral part of the kihon waza in most standard curriculums, but really they should be viewed as seed techniques for other applications.

The other unfortunate thing is that there is a tendency to play as you practise and I think that unconscious reliance on such "dojo" waza in an adrenaline fueled situation can prove to be "fatally enlightening".

Ignatius
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:08 PM   #42
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Ethan Weisgard wrote:
Dear Peter Goldsbury Sensei,

In the book Budo - Teachings of the Founder of Aikido, on page 60 (photo 80 and 81), O-Sensei is doing Gokyo. The osae is not demonstrated. In Saito Sensei's book Commentary on the 1938 Training Manual of Morihei Ueshiba, Saito Sensei writes: "The Founder said in Budo: Apply Ippo (ikkyo) to this technique. However, in his later years, he changed the technique grabbing his partner's wrist from below as shown above, and called it gokyo urawaza." Saito Sensei's point was that if you used the ikkyo grab when uke was holding a blade, then you wrist was open for a cut. Another point was, even if uke was using a wooden tanto, the weapon could be used to apply a counter-pin (much a in nikyo) to nage's wrist. In Saito Sensei' commentary the pin is not shown. I have written another post in this section regarding the two forms that Saito Sensei taught for the osae.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard
Mr Weisgard,

Yes, you are right. So this answers my earlier question. However, in my edition of Stanley Pranin's English translation, the waza is shown on p. 74-77. It appears on p.29 of the unpublished Japanese original and with a different photograph. Though the waza is 5-kyou, it is not named in the Japanese original. In the Japanese original, however, M Ueshiba clearly holds the attacking hand from below. As I stated, the waza does not appear in the early Japanese version of Aikido.

Best wishes,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 10-22-2006 at 07:13 PM.

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Old 10-23-2006, 09:28 AM   #43
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Re: Gokyo-why?

[quote=Ignatius Teo]....

Also, from the AJ interview with Katsuyuki Kondo:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=77...QUOTE]

The part where Kondo Sensei states that Aikido only took 5 of Daito-Ryu techniques is incorrect in this interview. Maybe this could have been a translation mistake. I recently purchased the ikkajo DVDs made by Kondo Sensei and we practice the ippondori, kotegaeshi, and kurumadoashi at my dojo. Ippondori is ikkyo, kotegaeshi as practiced on this DVD is called ryotetori reverse kotegaeshi in my dojo and just performed just slightly different, and finally kurumadaoshi. When we asked my Sensei for the name of this technique the response we get is "I don't know". There are some more on the DVD that we practice as well but I don't remember off the top of my head which ones they are.
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Old 10-23-2006, 12:07 PM   #44
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Some very interesting stuff thanks guys!

So does anyone know why in the Katate dori ikkyo form we take the gokyo grip (palm up), but it's still ok to call this ikkyo and not gokyo?

-Chris
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Old 10-23-2006, 01:37 PM   #45
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Re: Gokyo-why?

[quote=Mike Braxton]
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
The part where Kondo Sensei states that Aikido only took 5 of Daito-Ryu techniques is incorrect in this interview.
Yeah. I have trouble with this, too. DR names techniques according to different criteria than aikido. In fact, most of the DR kata are practiced in aikido, but, famously, in more free-flowing style.
What we in aikido would call IKKYO, e.g., will have several different names according, e.g., to the attack of the moment.

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Old 10-23-2006, 04:05 PM   #46
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Some very interesting stuff thanks guys!

So does anyone know why in the Katate dori ikkyo form we take the gokyo grip (palm up), but it's still ok to call this ikkyo and not gokyo?

-Chris
Dear Chris,

The Katate Dori Ikkyo grip is slightly different, because we are holding with control of the hand / thumb of uke. In Gokyo we still hold the wrist, but withour thumb closest to uke's hand. The Ikkyo grip form different grabs from uke is just a logical, effeicient way to grab and hold the opponents' hand. In the old forms (as shown in O-Sensei's Budo book) Gokyo is applied against Shomen Uchi. It is also done againt Yokomen Uchi, traditionally. In Saito Sensei's new book series "Takemusu Aiki" he demonstrates Gokyo from various attacks. I believe that this is to show that this technique can be applied in a variety of settings, but it i most evident as a seperate technique when done against Shomen or Yokomen uchi.

In Aiki,

Ethan
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:07 PM   #47
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Mr Weisgard,

Yes, you are right. So this answers my earlier question. However, in my edition of Stanley Pranin's English translation, the waza is shown on p. 74-77. It appears on p.29 of the unpublished Japanese original and with a different photograph. Though the waza is 5-kyou, it is not named in the Japanese original. In the Japanese original, however, M Ueshiba clearly holds the attacking hand from below. As I stated, the waza does not appear in the early Japanese version of Aikido.

Best wishes,

Dear Goldbury Sensei,

I am glad I could be of help.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard
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Old 10-23-2006, 10:10 PM   #48
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Gokyo-why?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
... so I suspect that 5-kyou, like kaiten-nage, was added to the repertoire of kihon waza by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

And then there is 6-kyou, which is a variation of 2-kyou, but where uke's arm is kept straight.

Best wishes to all,
Hi Peter,

I didn't know that fact about Kaiten-nage, but I can tell you that in 1989 my Yoshinkan teacher in Japan - a direct student of Shioda Sensei - told me there was no Kaiten-nage in Yoshinkan. I have since seen Yoshinkan people doing it ...

5-kyou: Consider this. Right handed attack comes. Avoid left and place your left hand on uke's wrist and you are setting up for kote-gaeshi. Avoid right and place your right hand on uke's wrist in the same way (mirror) and you are setting up for 5-kyou (amongst other thngs, of course). It is a mirror technique. If you remove 5-kyou it would be like taking away one side of a mirror. Does that answer "Gokyo-Why?" I wonder?

Also, your description of 6-kyou is Judo's wake-gatamte. I learned it in Tomiki, in the Institute of Aikido, in Kyushin-do, in Jujutsu, and in Judo. Everyone has it but Aikikai, although some do, calling it different names (rarely wake-gatame).

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Old 10-24-2006, 12:19 AM   #49
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Hi Peter,

I didn't know that fact about Kaiten-nage, but I can tell you that in 1989 my Yoshinkan teacher in Japan - a direct student of Shioda Sensei - told me there was no Kaiten-nage in Yoshinkan. I have since seen Yoshinkan people doing it ...

5-kyou: Consider this. Right handed attack comes. Avoid left and place your left hand on uke's wrist and you are setting up for kote-gaeshi. Avoid right and place your right hand on uke's wrist in the same way (mirror) and you are setting up for 5-kyou (amongst other thngs, of course). It is a mirror technique. If you remove 5-kyou it would be like taking away one side of a mirror. Does that answer "Gokyo-Why?" I wonder?

Also, your description of 6-kyou is Judo's wake-gatamte. I learned it in Tomiki, in the Institute of Aikido, in Kyushin-do, in Jujutsu, and in Judo. Everyone has it but Aikikai, although some do, calling it different names (rarely wake-gatame).
Hello Rupert,

I have never had a problem with the reason for 5-kyou, though you would be surprised at how many test candidates cannot tell the difference between 5-kyou and 1-kyou. I think that 5-kyou, like 1-kyou, is still fundamentally an elbow pin.

What interests me is the way that Kisshomaru Ueshiba distilled the wealth of waza in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938) into the kihon waza of his 1957 volume. If you look at this volume and also the books published by Koichi Tohei, you will see the evidence of the creation of a system based, not on how people attack, which was the main organizing theme of Budo Resnhu, but on the waza themselves.

I think that Kisshomaru had already decided that it would be impossible for people to replicate or duplicate the training process that he himself had gone through at the hands of his father and so he produced what he thought was the core. Saito Morihiro also did this with his Traditional Aikido volumes, but on a more ambitious scale, as did Shirata Rinjiro with a video that has never been published officially. Of course, neither has the original Japanese text of Budo.

So, I think that 5-kyou and 6-kyou and, to a lesser extent kaiten-nage, were not thought of as really core waza, at least initially.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:55 PM   #50
Michael Varin
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Re: Gokyo-why?

This thread's got me thinking.

I hadn't carefully considered gokyo. I always accepted the Iwama explanation which is basically: the transition from atemi to controlling the wrist is quicker and the tanto can't be used to reverse the technique as easily. I was told that the grip differentiated gokyo from ikkyo. As far as the takedown is concerned, I don't think anyone here would argue that they are mechanically the same. I think too much is made of the reverse grip. Chris pointed out in an early post that there are ways to do nikyo that look very different, and that you can apply different pins to kote gaeshi and sankyo without it being called a separate technique.

I'm leaning toward what Ignatius eluded to earlier. Gokyo fundamentally is a different way to manipulate the arm/wrist/elbow. Ikkyo uses the elbow with its natural movement, nikyo over-rotates the radius with the hand directed back at the body (adduction), sankyo is an internal rotation of the forearm, yonkyo uses the ulnar or radial nerves, gokyo hyper-flexes the wrist -- palm towards elbow, and rokyo uses the elbow against its natural movement. This makes sense.

Although "kyo" only means lesson or teaching, the first six techniques of aikido are often viewed as pins. Many refer to them as osae waza. I think this can create some serious distortions about their most effective applications. Increasingly, I view these techniques as ways to cause someone to let go of you or something they are holding, or to quickly change their direction away from you. Not as means to take someone to the ground and fully immobilize them (I don't rule this possibility out). This is more consistent with aikido's relation to the sword and multiple opponents.

Great discussion.

Michael
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