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Old 12-12-2007, 03:28 PM   #1
Joseph Madden
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Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

This may be a controversial question to ask on the AikiWeb forum, and I'm sure someone has asked it in the past, but as a reasonably new member I felt it was important to get a consensus. If someone was attempting to kill you with an edged weapon would you defend yourself using lethal force if your life depended on it. Notice I haven't used the word "assault" with an edged weapon as I deem anyone attempting to use an edged weapon on your person are attempting to end your life. I'd like everyone's opinion, but specifically Canadian responses as our laws are far more narrow when it comes to the protection of the individual compared to other countries.
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Old 12-12-2007, 03:35 PM   #2
hullu
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Sure. Prob after killing me he would continue doing something stupid.
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Old 12-12-2007, 03:41 PM   #3
akiy
 
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Here are two polls I conducted here on AikiWeb back in 2000:

"Would you kill your attacker if your own life depended upon it?"
http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=17

"Would you kill an attacker if a human life other than your own depended upon it?"
http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=18

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:10 PM   #4
Aristeia
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Isn't this somewhat begging the queston? If you had to you would surely? The question becomes either could you, or do you have to. Are you asking if it's a choice of me or him who do I choose? In most conceivable cases that's a no brainer imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:12 PM   #5
graham
 
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

No.
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:21 PM   #6
Aikibu
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Yes.

William Hazen
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:27 PM   #7
Marc Abrams
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

dead men tell no lies.

Dead men do not sue you.

Dead men do not try and hurt you again.

I second William's answer.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:06 PM   #8
SeiserL
 
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

No, I know faster, quicker, and more sure ways than Aikido.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:57 PM   #9
Fred Little
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

The premise is a question about self-defense, or goshinjutsu.

The right of self-defense is almost universally acknowledged.

That said, I would be derelict if I didn't note that Terry Dobson was adamant in his belief that there was a distinct difference between goshinjutsu, or the art of self-defense, and aikido, which he insisted was not an art of self-defense, but a way of protection.

Careful consideration of that view leads to a whole different range of questions.

Best,

FL
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:52 PM   #10
darin
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
dead men tell no lies.

Dead men do not sue you.

Dead men do not try and hurt you again.

I second William's answer.

Marc Abrams
I don't know about that... Been watching Ghost Hunters. I wonder if EVPs would hold up in court. "heeee kiiillllled meeee". You'd have to do a Brian "Dude run!".
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:46 PM   #11
xuzen
 
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
This may be a controversial question to ask on the AikiWeb forum, and I'm sure someone has asked it in the past, but as a reasonably new member I felt it was important to get a consensus. If someone was attempting to kill you with an edged weapon would you defend yourself using lethal force if your life depended on it. Notice I haven't used the word "assault" with an edged weapon as I deem anyone attempting to use an edged weapon on your person are attempting to end your life. I'd like everyone's opinion, but specifically Canadian responses as our laws are far more narrow when it comes to the protection of the individual compared to other countries.
Hmmm... where do you guys learn How to KlLL with aikido? Maybe my teacher is withholding T3H D34DLY from me.

All I ever got to learn are just some lousy elbow dislocating technique... I want T3H D34DLY now, I want, I want, I want.....

Oh, sorry, I got carried away, back to the original question.... No I won't, at least not on purpose. I do not want to be charged for pre-mediated murder.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:52 PM   #12
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
This may be a controversial question to ask on the AikiWeb forum, and I'm sure someone has asked it in the past, but as a reasonably new member I felt it was important to get a consensus. If someone was attempting to kill you with an edged weapon would you defend yourself using lethal force if your life depended on it. Notice I haven't used the word "assault" with an edged weapon as I deem anyone attempting to use an edged weapon on your person are attempting to end your life. I'd like everyone's opinion, but specifically Canadian responses as our laws are far more narrow when it comes to the protection of the individual compared to other countries.
Forgive my saying so, but I think this is a silly question, given:

1) The odds of running into a life or death violent encounter
2) The odds of gaining dominance in such an encounter (which you presumably would not be instigating)
3) The odds of doing so using aikido.

To be blunt, I think most of us could not fight our ways out of paper bags. This is a question to worry about when most of us aikidoka actually learn how to be competent martial artists. On that magical day, maybe we can devote a few hours of our time to worrying about such things.

But really, this is so far above our current level on the hierarchy of needs that it seems pointless to discuss.
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:00 PM   #13
Aikibu
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
The premise is a question about self-defense, or goshinjutsu.

The right of self-defense is almost universally acknowledged.

That said, I would be derelict if I didn't note that Terry Dobson was adamant in his belief that there was a distinct difference between goshinjutsu, or the art of self-defense, and aikido, which he insisted was not an art of self-defense, but a way of protection.

Careful consideration of that view leads to a whole different range of questions.

Best,

FL
What that in mind... Proper use of Aikido can result in a fatal conclusion...The intention may be one of protection... the result may not reflect those intentions...Under Duress and the threat of serious bodily harm or death Aikido must be a Martial Art first and foremost with the intention of "protecting" both the Nage and Uke.

I know it has potentially saved my life a few times and I feel great relief I was not forced to do more than break a few bones...

As Shoji Nishio expressed it. "Sincere Heart through Austere Practice."

William Hazen
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:24 AM   #14
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

I'd like to think that if my Aikido was good enough, I would have other options. There are plenty of arts that focus on the destruction of an opponent. I like Aikido because it allows such a situation to be resolved through a morally and ethically higher means.

On a practical level, what if the guy you kill has friends with guns, who are unhappy about the decision you made? And what if after you get gunned down, your friends decide to set those guy's houses on fire? And what if after the houses get burned down... ...see where this is leading?

Violence begets violence. I believe Morihei understood this after seeing his country get hit with two nukes. I believe he realized that the problem with violence is that it escalates, and that we as a species had increased our potential for destruction to the point that violence was no longer a viable alternative (if it ever really had been) for combatting violence.

I like options. Options are good.

Last edited by Will Prusner : 12-13-2007 at 09:28 AM.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:37 AM   #15
roadster
 
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Ah, perhaps Pai Mei shall teach you Aikidoka the five point palm exploding heart technique.



What kind of scenario would you need to kill someone? Why wouldn't you just be able to break a major bone and leave instead?
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:45 AM   #16
DarkShodan
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: If someones dies as a result of my actions, it's not aikido. As far as I know aikido does not have any killing moves. Would I uses aikido techniques and skills to set up a killing move? Yes.

I've had this discussion many times online, with my friends and family. Aside from the moral issues and the endless possible scenarios, (what if this, and what if that) I think it is important to decide, today, if you are able to kill someone and in what circumstances.

Example: Two people try to car-jack me while my two sons are in the back seat. Yes, without hesitation.

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:45 AM   #17
Joseph Madden
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Thanks for posting the link to the archives Jun. So apparently back in the good ole days of 2000, 85% of aikidoka would use deadly force not only to defend themselves, but to defend other people. With regards to everyone else who has answered the question thus far, the greatest thanks.

OSU
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:48 AM   #18
Joseph Madden
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Hmmm... where do you guys learn How to KlLL with aikido? Maybe my teacher is withholding T3H D34DLY from me.

All I ever got to learn are just some lousy elbow dislocating technique... I want T3H D34DLY now, I want, I want, I want.....

Oh, sorry, I got carried away, back to the original question.... No I won't, at least not on purpose. I do not want to be charged for pre-mediated murder.

Boon.
Xu,
Don't you think using ushiro nage against a person, say so their head hits the concrete hard enough that it kills them would be an effective killing technique. And also, why would you be charged with pre-meditated murder in such a case?
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:50 AM   #19
GLWeeks
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Yep, without a second thought.

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Old 12-13-2007, 09:52 AM   #20
Joseph Madden
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Lloyd McWhirt wrote: View Post
Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: If someones dies as a result of my actions, it's not aikido. As far as I know aikido does not have any killing moves. Would I uses aikido techniques and skills to set up a killing move? Yes.

I've had this discussion many times online, with my friends and family. Aside from the moral issues and the endless possible scenarios, (what if this, and what if that) I think it is important to decide, today, if you are able to kill someone and in what circumstances.

Example: Two people try to car-jack me while my two sons are in the back seat. Yes, without hesitation.
Exceptional answer Lloyd

OSU
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:04 AM   #21
Aikibu
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Erik Jacobson wrote: View Post
Ah, perhaps Pai Mei shall teach you Aikidoka the five point palm exploding heart technique.



What kind of scenario would you need to kill someone? Why wouldn't you just be able to break a major bone and leave instead?
I have told this story before but it helps to illustrate the deadly seriousness of consequences vs intention...

A junior leval Yudansha was constantly told by his Sensei ( Who has since left the U.S.) that his Aikido practice would make him "invincible". One night he went out with his wife to dinner...He got in an argument with a couple of men over a parking spot. According to those present He did everything right...Tried to de-escalate the situation while maintaining MAAI He appeared confident his practice would help him resolve the conflict. One of the two men got close enough to punch him in the face He fell and his head hit the curb... and he died right there...I am sure the man who hit him had no intention of killing him but there you have it. You don't know what is going to happen when you hit someone. ..

In the few times I have had to use Aikido in a physical fight I reacted the way I was taught which is to end the fight the moment it started. In one case my experiance percieved the escalation before the dude was able to strike. I hit hard and do not hold anything back... In another case my Atemi was countered which lead to an elbow strike to the ribs and Kiminage and the dude fell hard but he got up and bailed...On another occasion I was in tight quarters and this dude got crazy eyes closed the distance and I saw the punch coming... I entered and without thinking executed Iriminage starting from his solar plexus right up to his chin and he fell hard on his back hit his head and it knocked him out. I was lucky in those cases that I did not seriously hurt someone considering what happened to them.

At the moment of contact out there you must fully commit That is if you practice Aikido as a Martial Art...

Otherwise as Lynn alluded to... you better have a backup gun or something and know how to use it.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 12-13-2007 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:07 AM   #22
Joseph Madden
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Well said William.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:13 AM   #23
Aikibu
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Quote:
Lloyd McWhirt wrote: View Post
Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: If someones dies as a result of my actions, it's not aikido. As far as I know aikido does not have any killing moves. Would I uses aikido techniques and skills to set up a killing move? Yes.

I've had this discussion many times online, with my friends and family. Aside from the moral issues and the endless possible scenarios, (what if this, and what if that) I think it is important to decide, today, if you are able to kill someone and in what circumstances.

Example: Two people try to car-jack me while my two sons are in the back seat. Yes, without hesitation.
Interesting...Perhaps you should try to parse this logic a little bit more and see what you come up with. The question was would you kill someone using Aikido Not does Aikido have any killing moves (Which in fact it does in a sense...Every technique fully applied has the potential to seriously hurt someone.)

Bowing down to you.

William Hazen
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:16 AM   #24
Amir Krause
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

I agree with most here.

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer :
1. Can't I find another, better, solution?
2. Would I even be successful???
3. Most Aikido techniques are not meant to kill, rather to injure. When trying to save self or loved one, I would use the technique most suitable to the momentary solution, and the most applicable and efficient variation of it I would be able to carry out in instinct.
If I would have time to think if the reprocusions of the technique, and choose it, than most likely I am not under any imminent threat and it is not S.D. at all.

Amir
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:25 AM   #25
Joseph Madden
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Re: Would you kill someone using Aikido if you had to.

Good points Amir.
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