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Old 06-20-2001, 06:31 AM   #1
MAX
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Question Are There Many Dojo's Teaching Practical Aikido?

After reading the posts about UFC and the effectivness of Aikido and whether it would work on the street,or against the average jo?
Do we have to make it more real in the dojo?
For example,Katate Mochi.How many people are going to grab your wrist before they hit you?
I'm not saying that the training we do is insufficant and i'm not putting anything down,but should we concentrate more on punches & kicks and what is more likely going to happen,out here in the big world.
Your opinions are most welcome.
Tom.

There is only one Aikido!O'Sensei's.!
MAX....
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Old 06-20-2001, 06:55 AM   #2
Kami
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Question Re: Are There Many Dojo's Teaching Practical Aikido?

Quote:
Originally posted by MAX
I'm not saying that the training we do is insufficant and i'm not putting anything down,but should we concentrate more on punches & kicks and what is more likely going to happen,out here in the big world.
Your opinions are most welcome.
Tom.
and
Quote:
Originally posted by MAX
There is only one Aikido!O'Sensei's.!
MAX....
KAMI : Excuse me but when you say that "we should concentrate more..in what is more likely going to happen, out here in the big world", you're "putting some things down" and you're saying that "the training we do is insufficient"...
How can we reconcile that with you claiming that "there is only one Aikido, O-Sensei's"?
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 06-20-2001, 07:29 AM   #3
andrew
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Re: Are There Many Dojo's Teaching Practical Aikido?

This debate has been done to death, really.

There's an interview with a Shihan on aikido online who did some judo before he started aikido. The interviewer asks if he found it difficult to adjust, and he said that it didn't but it took some time for him to accept the method of training used in aikido.

My own teacher recently told me that he'd done several years kenpo before he took up aikido. He went along with a couple of his friends. For fully four years he trained with the "Yeah, but I could kick his/her ass with my kenpo at any moment" thought in the back of his head. Around this time, he suddenly realised what was going on in aikido training a bit better and began to accept it.

Another point- the precise nature of the attack isn't as significant as you imply, seeing as we're learning to work with the centre. Uke's flailing limbs are just another distraction on the path. (Ahem.)

andrew
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Old 06-20-2001, 09:33 AM   #4
Andre
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My understanding is that we practice these very stylized attacks to understand the principles of the techniques. When you truely understand the principles, the specific attack is almost irrelevant. You don't look at the punch or kick but the energy your attacker is using.

I've seen a tsuki irminage done to a front kick. I suppose you wouldn't call it tsuki since its not a punch but the lines of force are the same so the technique works.
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Old 06-20-2001, 10:56 AM   #5
Jim23
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Re: Re: Are There Many Dojo's Teaching Practical Aikido?

Quote:
Originally posted by andrew
... For fully four years he trained with the "Yeah, but I could kick his/her ass with my kenpo at any moment" thought in the back of his head.
andrew
I understand this quite well, as I feel the same way very often.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've also come across some very good, capable, senior people (like last night, for example Wow!!! Aikido does work!). But I've also seen some aikidoka, as high as Yondan, who would be in big trouble in a "real" fight (I guess they did their time).

Recently, I met a Nidan who was overweight and soft (really nice guy though). But if just one punch connected with this guy, he would be, well ... toast.

Oh, don't bother to lecture me about how I'll figure this all out in time (not you Andrew, everyone).

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 06-20-2001, 12:39 PM   #6
Kami
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Unhappy Re: Criticism against Aikido...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
But I've also seen some aikidoka, as high as Yondan, who would be in big trouble in a "real" fight (I guess they did their time).
Recently, I met a Nidan who was overweight and soft (really nice guy though). But if just one punch connected with this guy, he would be, well ... toast.
Jim23
KAMI : You know, Jim...Sometimes I feel Aikido is the only "bad art"...There are no overweight, soft, karateka; no bad techniques exchanged in judo competitions; the judoka aren't open to atemi and the karateka aren't defenseless against grabbing; no kung Fu style is excessively "flowery"; and boxing, of course, has grabbing techniques, ground techniques and a lot of pins...
No, it seems only poor, ol' Aikido, is wrong, inefficient, not really able to stand "a real fight"(whatever that means)...
Come on, guys, let's give Aikido a break!

Peace and Harmony

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 06-20-2001, 01:02 PM   #7
Jim23
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I was hoping that my comments wouldn't start this type of defensive response. I was adding my thoughts to a previous post.

Sure, there are sloppy people in all martial arts. However, because of aikido's non-competitive nature, I think it tends to attract many non-competitive, non-athletic types not suited to, say, boxing or karate, etc. (and yes, yes, yes, most people can be whipped into shape, with time and effort).

I started out by saying that I was very impressed by someone I saw yesterday -- wouldn't tangle with that fella! I'm trying to nice and objective here. But a Nidan? A Yondan? Come on!

I don't understand why we defend low standards. Am I the only one who feels this way? Geez.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 06-20-2001, 01:05 PM   #8
Greg Noble
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Re: Re: Re: Are There Many Dojo's Teaching Practical Aikido?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23

I understand this quite well, as I feel the same way very often.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've also come across some very good, capable, senior people (like last night, for example Wow!!! Aikido does work!). But I've also seen some aikidoka, as high as Yondan, who would be in big trouble in a "real" fight (I guess they did their time).

Recently, I met a Nidan who was overweight and soft (really nice guy though). But if just one punch connected with this guy, he would be, well ... toast.

Jim23
Hi Jim,

Don't take this wrong but...what are you there for? To learn aikido? Or to size up the yudansha? Learning aikido is more than just learning self-defense and sizing up the yudansha ain't one of 'em. Although you may be able to hit the "soft" nidan with a lead hand, reverse punch, roundhouse kick combo, what would be the point? That aikido doesn't work against "realistic" attacks or that the nidan has not been exposed to punch/kick combo attacks and is trying to learn aikido just like you.

My two cents worth...

Greg

Greg Tetsuzan Noble
Zenshinkai Aikido Association
Chief Instructor
info@zenshinkai.org
www.zenshinkai.org
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Old 06-20-2001, 01:58 PM   #9
Jim23
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Greg,

I'm not getting into one of these silly arguments again.

Besides, I don't really understand your post. I'll just keep my eyes shut. And my mouth.

Who cares about standards anyway?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 06-20-2001, 02:55 PM   #10
JCK
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Mr. Harrison,

I once attended a seminar with Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei and he said to everyone, "you know, your Aikido might not work, but mine does." and then he went on to say that practice is everything. For me that says enough.

I'm with Jim. I don't like to get involved in a discussion about this topic because the answer will never be the same for everyone. I know what works for ME. It doesn't matter what Martial Art you're looking at.....pick one (or several) that will "fit" you the best. Only my opinion. Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Jeremy King

Last edited by JCK : 06-20-2001 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 06-20-2001, 04:15 PM   #11
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1. people who keep saying "i don't want to discuss this (what ever it is) anymore" and then go on to state their point are essentially saying "i am going to make my opinion known and don't care about hearing anyone else's"...if you really don't want a discussion, don't 'say' anything. period. no come back, just be quiet.
2. i think those who come to class looking to see how much better what they already know is compared to what is being taught are in the wrong class.
3. not everyone---gasp--is taking Aikido for self defense street fighting. Aikido might--gasp--even teach you to avoid those situations.
4. i bet you are bigger than i am, and definately better at MA. But I max the MEN'S fitness scores each year, and shoot expert with a variety of military weapons...does believing in working on self-improvemnt rather than comparison to others really make me so weak in you eyes? If i wanted to prove my manhood and dominace over others i'd go to a local bar and make rude comments to the patrons. I'm looking for something else in Aikido.
5. you're right, we have different standards.
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Old 06-20-2001, 05:12 PM   #12
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i think those who come to class looking to see how much better what they already know is compared to what is being taught are in the wrong class.

Maybe, depends on what they see. If you disagree, you can take my Aikido distance-learning course over the Internet. Low introductory rates!

What? Not interested? How *dare* you judge me!

not everyone---gasp--is taking Aikido for self defense street fighting. Aikido might--gasp--even teach you to avoid those situations.

It takes a few seconds to learn how to avoid a street fight:

Stay off the f*cking street!

Class is over. Testing and automatic promotion will take place next Friday. I accept Visa and Mastercard.

I'm looking for something else in Aikido.

Seriously, what are you looking for?
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Old 06-20-2001, 05:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCK
I once attended a seminar with Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei and he said to everyone, "you know, your Aikido might not work, but mine does." and then he went on to say that practice is everything. For me that says enough.
He usually says something along the lines of, "Aikido works. Your aikido may not work. Please understand the difference."

-- Jun

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Old 06-20-2001, 05:34 PM   #14
jedd
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Hello all, at our dojo we practice "jiyu waza" or free-style techniques on a regular basis. I can tell you from experience that Aikido is very effective if performed properly. Proper timing and stamina are critical in the fury of a fight. In addition, one does not have to wait for a wrist grab, in a serious situation one could initiate a variety of techniques. With no offense to other martial arts, punching and kicking are relatively easy techniques to remember during a fight. The reason some may question the effectiveness of Aikido (in my opinion) is because it is not an overnight self defense course. As I am finding out, Aikido takes years to master and free-style does help develop body-mind synchronicity in this regard. In all honesty, at my dojo we train cautiously yet hard. I would not want to tangle with any of our senior students---I know what the outcome would be. Granted, many of the idealized techniques we practice in class would not be used in a real fight--too fast, too furious, too much adrenaline--motor skills degrade. However, many fundamental movements could easily be applied and be effective if properly executed. As a final point, I have noticed this topic many times in different threads. I am curious as to why, for me I know Aikido is extremely effective as a martial art. Perhaps we should discuss why some have experienced it as effective and others not then we could sift out what the real issue may be.

Thanks
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Old 06-20-2001, 05:37 PM   #15
mj
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As usual, Jim makes salient points.
Of course many people are looking for 'more' in aiki, as are people playing Go, learning Chess, Surfing, Hang Gliding, Drugs or whatever. Aikidoka don't have a special right to enlightenment.
However, aikido is a MA, and doesn't claim to be anything else. (Don't start picking on that statement, please!) Enlightenment can come, or not. Many people do take it too casually, by which I mean: it's very easy to say 'I do aikido, it is a MARTIAL ART', and then to say 'it is not about fighting, which is beneath me...'. It really sounds like a cop out. Avoiding a street fight won't make any observers want to join your club, will it? Kicking the shit out of the antagonist... well, that's worth four or five new starts straight away. It's all very well being peaceful, but it has to work in the Earthly world too. As a Physical, Martial Art. Doesn't it?
Of course, I would rather people see what I'm saying, than twisting my words...
Peace.

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Old 06-21-2001, 12:16 AM   #16
darin
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Best way to solve this problem is to do research. Experiment with the techniques and find out which techniques work and and which don't. Some are better suited to certain situations than others. Also don't be afraid to add things from other styles or arts.

I learnt Yoseikan Aikido which has quite a lot of karate, judo, juijitsu and weapon techniques.

Mochizuki Kancho encourages his students to experiment with the techniques. If something didn't work he would tell his students to forget about it. Why train to do something useless?

I have done some Tomiki, Yoshinkan and BJJ too. These styles have some amazing self defence techniques, especially Yoshinkan. Just look around and keep an open mind.

I can't give advice on aikido in street fighting as I have never been in a street fight. But I have learnt a lot from training with bouncers and those who have been exposed to street violence. I often asked them to counter my techniques. Most of them thought aikido was crap but after a few classes they think its the best thing.
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Old 06-21-2001, 04:01 AM   #17
JJF
 
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Hi Mark!
I know you asked for nobody to pick on your statement about Aikido being a MA - but I just want to say that in my opinion Aikido is more a Budo than it is a MA. A lot of people might disagree when i seperate these to concepts, but the way I se it a lot of those 'mystical' aspects you mention are implied in a Budo whereas MA is a broader term that is primarily concerned about the fighting aspect. I migth be wrong though, but that's the way I see it.
I strongly agree with you that we should never forget that Aikido is about martial arts skills - but I just as strongly believe that we must allways keep an open mind for those other aspects of Aikido as a Budo.
Aikido should work the way we practice it, but just practicing it as a selfdefence would in my opinion be a narrowminded approach.
Finally I would prefer being able to not kick the s... out of anybody (antagonist or not) but either avoid the situation or keep the 's...-kicking' to an absolute minimum. When it comes to getting people to join your dojo I find newspaper adds a much more appropiate medium for advertising .
Sorry about my ramblings.

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Old 06-21-2001, 04:16 AM   #18
ian
 
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I think Aikido is harder to apply within the first year of training, as your body isn't quite natural in the way it moves. However it has many advantages over other martial arts.

One of these is the ability to use appropriate force. I have been grabbed many times in real situations (often attackers try to work themselves up to a fight by pushing or grabbing you). The use of aikido here is excellent because you can control someone without having to damage them - and they then bugger off realising you could kick their arse. Also, aikido is not about 'coming out on top' it is about self defence. Being able to avoid being hit or grabbed is very useful because it means you can escape an attack from anyone (and then run away). I have met few female karatekas who I have thought could use their martial art effectively against a large and strong opponent.

Sometimes I think it would be useful to do more striking practise in aikido (since atemi's are supposed to be 80%+ of real aikido). But really this is up to the aikidoka to practise themselves as it is much easy to learn and repeat.

I think some people in aikido just do not train seriously enough (i.e. with real situations in mind) and this is where you can get people developing a poor self-defence ability. However this is not a limitation of the aikido, but of the person.

Ian

Last edited by ian : 06-21-2001 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 06-21-2001, 04:33 AM   #19
Kami
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Wink DEFENSIVENESS

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
I was hoping that my comments wouldn't start this type of defensive response. I was adding my thoughts to a previous post.
KAMI : Who's defensive? I was kidding, Jim, 'cause in my opinion, you was too much affirmative in your post. I really believe this discussion on "effetiveness" has been done to death but, of course, you have the right to kick the corpse...But a previous poster was right when he said that, if you don't want to exchange opinions, you shouldn't force your own ideas on others.

Quote:
[i]Sure, there are sloppy people in all martial arts.[/b]
KAMI : In that, at least, we DO agree!

Quote:
[i] However, because of aikido's non-competitive nature, I think it tends to attract many non-competitive, non-athletic types not suited to, say, boxing or karate, etc. (and YES, YES, YES,[!!!] most people can be whipped into shape, with time and effort).[/b]
KAMI : A good opinion.

Quote:
[i]I don't understand why we defend low standards. Am I the only one who feels this way? Geez.[/b]
KAMI : Again you are being too much affirmative. Who's defending low standards? WE? (That must be you, since I don't!). And don't feel isolated in the world (AM I THE ONLY ONE?).
Perhaps the only disagreement is in the way to achieve those "high standards".
Try to be cool. Don't take it so bad.
Best

Last edited by Kami : 06-21-2001 at 04:38 AM.

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Old 06-21-2001, 07:16 AM   #20
JCK
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Hey Jun,

Got me there.

"Aikido works. Your aikido may not work. Please understand the difference."

I stand corrected. I couldn't remember exactly how he put it. I just remember being in awe of his small circles and subtle movements to remember a quote word for word.

Hey Colleen,

The only reason I said that I don't like to get involved with discussions like these is because not everyone will agree on what works. Something that may work for me (or you or anyone else) may not work for someone else. That doesn't make me wrong or you wrong or that other person wrong.

A question like this is similar (at least to me) to discussing what religion is the only "true" religion. No one really knows, the decision is very personal, and you have to have faith. I think it's cool to discuss different aspects of different religions but to say that one is "better" than another or one is the only "true" religion is not a very good way to question things because it only leads to arguments and his or her ego getting in the way.

Mr. Harrison asked if there are any other schools out there that practice "real....practical....effective......fill in the blank" Aikido. I just gave him my thoughts on how I look at the situation. I've been around long enough to realize that there is no one "right" answer. I personally don't like to discuss this topic and that doesn't make me wrong or better than someone else, just like wanting to discuss this topic doesn't make someone else wrong or better than me. For me to get involved I just think it should be discussed in another way (like Mr. Harison stated some of his questions). For example, "we do a technique this way - how does everyone else do it?" or "we focus more on atemi - what about at your school?" In my example I'm referring to all Martial Arts because I think they're all valuable. Just some don't fit me as well as they might fit someone else. For me that's a better way to discuss effectiveness.

I think that Jim has had this discussion several times and is tired of going over the same thing (I could be wrong here) and same issues. Going back to my religion reference.....Look at the Middle East. My God, those people have been fighting about who is "right" for thousands of years. I think that maybe Jim is tired of the discussions/arguments that occur on this board (for this topic) and he meant that he just doesn't want to keep going over the same points again and again.

I am a lurker and have been following this board for quite awhile. I've only posted a few times (this is the first time I've responded to an Aikido discussion - I have made several replies when discussing history on the Chit Chat section) and decided to respond to this topic because I think it's good to question things; however, I noticed that as soon as I stopped worrying about what works and what doesn't and started to focus on just practicing then my Aikido started to get better.

It just amazes me how people get so upset when someone else tells them that "this" doesn't work or that "this" isn't effective. That's like saying to another person, "I think exactly like you". You might be able to, to a certain extent, but there is no way that another person can think exactly like another person (even if they are "twins"). "And that's all I got to say about that.", to quote Forrest Gump. I was only trying to offer Mr. Harrison another point of view without sounding "holier than thou". Sorry if I've offended anyone.

Thanks,
Jeremy

Last edited by JCK : 06-21-2001 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 06-21-2001, 07:40 AM   #21
NYFE Man
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Out of curiosity, do you think that most of the "Aikido won't work in a street fight because all we do is learn to defend against stylized attacks" camp are relatively new to Aikido?

Would a 6 month student of Kung Fu or TKD or Karate fare any better in a "street fight"? Isn't it more about the ability to deal with the situation than just doing techniques in a vacuum? Perhaps it has to do with society's need for instant gratification which is perhaps fulfilled by being taught to hit something.

If you don't think Aikido (or whatever MA) will serve you -- don't study it. But trying to convince people who have devoted years to its study (or even people who've been studying it for briefly, but who believe its effectiveness) that it doesn't work seems to be a bit of a sisyphian task.

Just my 2 cents...

Al

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Old 06-21-2001, 07:56 AM   #22
Jim23
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Boy oh boy. I go to class and look what I miss!

WHAT is everyone going on and on about? Why is everyone commenting on whether aikido works or not? Or the reasons why people study it? I study it and it works.

I was talking about low standards at high levels (not beginners).

You know, the expert marksman (markshuman?) who can't hit the target. The karateka (4th dan) who can't punch or kick. The jockey who can't ride a horse. The person who claims to be a marathor runner, who can't run around the block.

I don't understand the disagreement. And not because I said it either.

If someone studies a martial art (any) for 5-10 years, and they get promoted, up, up, up, they should have pretty good skills, or something's sadly wrong. I don't think that's an opinion.

Jim23

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Old 06-21-2001, 10:46 AM   #23
NYFE Man
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Jim --

For what it's worth, I wasn't responding to your comments. I think that there should be high standards. I was responding to the original poster (and certainly many others we've seen come through here) who was opining that
Quote:
For example,Katate Mochi.How many people are going to grab your wrist before they hit you?
I'm not saying that the training we do is insufficant and i'm not putting anything down,but should we concentrate more on punches & kicks and what is more likely going to happen,out here in the big world.
Gee Jim -- not EVERYONE disagrees with you

Al

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Old 06-21-2001, 11:06 AM   #24
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by NYFE Man

For what it's worth, I wasn't responding to your comments.


For what it's worth, I wasn't responding to your comments either.


Gee Jim -- not EVERYONE disagrees with you
Sometimes I wonder.

Jim23

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Old 06-21-2001, 11:47 AM   #25
Jim ashby
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Would it work?

Oh lads, oh lads, oh lads (and lasses).As an overweight Nidan, I feel sure that several people could quite easily high kick and or punch me. Could I retaliate? Don't know. Possibly the best thing would be pre-emptive retaliation, as my Sensei teaches occasionally. Gotta go now, us fat blokes will be training soon.
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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