Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-14-2005, 11:54 AM   #201
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Interesting. could you uproot them if they were not "attempting to send 'ki'" ? but simply being there with correct alignment and proper expansive state of relaxation ? My goal is not to attempt anything but just be there, connect the moment of contact by just being there already without moving so the person can't feel anything to counter. That sounds like what you mean by "if I could feel what you are doing"
I think Mike will give a seminar somewhere in TX. Why don't you go and try it on Mike first hand? If Mike can't uproot you, you get your seminar money back, gas money for the trip and a pint of beer from Mike. If Mike rproot you, you can write a detailed report about the seminar and REALLY rethink about your Aikido practice.

Isn't that fun to arrange a due if you have nothing to loose?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 11:58 AM   #202
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Interesting. could you uproot them if they were not "attempting to send 'ki'" ? but simply being there with correct alignment and proper expansive state of relaxation ? My goal is not to attempt anything but just be there, connect the moment of contact by just being there already without moving so the person can't feel anything to counter. That sounds like what you mean by "if I could feel what you are doing"
If someone just grabs you but disconnects the hands from the body, then of course you cannot control their center with your center (and conversely, they can't do anything to you until they hook their hands up). If someone is not doing anything, it is common, even in Aikido, to make some move that forces them to react and then you utilize that. If someone grabs my wrist and just 'disconnects' to make a point (although I'm not sure what the point is), I will simply ignore that arm and attack with some other part of my body... although I may do that even if they are connecting the hands to body.

However, the point is what that a force can be blended with in either obvious or subtle ways to result in some other desired outcome. That is called "aiki" in Aikido... the Chinese refer to it as "change".

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 12:28 PM   #203
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If someone just grabs you but disconnects the hands from the body, then of course you cannot control their center with your center (and conversely, they can't do anything to you until they hook their hands up). If someone is not doing anything, it is common, even in Aikido, to make some move that forces them to react and then you utilize that. If someone grabs my wrist and just 'disconnects' to make a point (although I'm not sure what the point is), I will simply ignore that arm and attack with some other part of my body... although I may do that even if they are connecting the hands to body.
I don't think I know what you tow talking about.

If Craig grabs Mike's right hand with his right hand, and he disconnect his right hand with his center, can Mike lifts up his right hand to hit graig's face. If so, what's the meaning of "grab" then?

If Mike can't raise his hand, then how can Craig hold Mike's hand down without his centre engaged?

I need to see them in action to get an answer.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 02:45 PM   #204
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
It seems that he also teaches standing poster. Isn't that a Kanji "ZHAN ZHUANG' in your club web site?

I think you mentioned something that he accquired his internal power from some Japanese arts. Are you sure you've got the story straight? Isn't that weired for a guy who practice "zhan zhuang", tai chi and xing yin to claim that he got his Ki from other source?

I'm confused.
Nope, I'm sure.
All those postures actually came from his Koryu teacher.
The "Shintaijiku" is actually a Yagyu Shingan Ryu exercise, as well as the Ten-Chi-Jin exercise. He does teach Tai Chi ('as a health thing for the old ladies), and did reverse engineer the Hsing-I form based on what he knows. A lot of people that see him move think he does Baji-fist. Interestingly enough it all works out to become similar, although I'm sure there are different places of emphasis in internal movement depending on the practicioner. The foundation is still basically the same.

Btw which Kanji were you referring to?
He might've used the word since its easier to describe it that way, but his internal background is basically all koryu.
The only connection to CMA is that he used to be part of the Neijia Research Institute here in Tokyo, but he even openly says he got nothing from You Susumu who's the head instructor there. And none of You's students have anything (they love to run around doing taolu thinking they're the next coming of the matrix, to give you an idea of what "level" they're at)

Last edited by Upyu : 12-14-2005 at 02:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 09:42 PM   #205
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Nope, I'm sure.
All those postures actually came from his Koryu teacher.
The "Shintaijiku" is actually a Yagyu Shingan Ryu exercise, as well as the Ten-Chi-Jin exercise.
:
:
:

Btw which Kanji were you referring to?
He might've used the word since its easier to describe it that way, but his internal background is basically all koryu.
16才で太極拳をはじめ、19才にて形意拳を学ぶ。

Could any one here translate the Japanese please?

The kanji is "Zang Zhuang", standing like a tree, stake excercise that Mike always mentioned in his posts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 10:08 PM   #206
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
16才で太極拳をはじめ、19才にて形意拳を学ぶ。

Could any one here translate the Japanese please?

The kanji is "Zang Zhuang", standing like a tree, stake excercise that Mike always mentioned in his posts.
Dude, I know that's what it says in the profile. But that's not where he got his body skill. Lol, remember I drink with the guy on the weekends
The koryu guys he trained with shunned the limelite. You won't find anything on the official site about how he trained w/ Sagawa either. You'll notice that he doesn't say "who" he learned tai chi and hsing-i from. He has that on his site because he's affliated w/ the neijia-institute. It's lip service only

And I know that Zhang Zhuang is stake holding, I just don't know what the characters are. You'd have to tell me what it is in japanese
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 10:28 PM   #207
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 993
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

16才で太極拳をはじめ、19才にて形意拳を学ぶ。
=
I / Somebody began Tijqun at 16 and studied Xngyqun at 19.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 10:29 PM   #208
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Think you misread one of the characters Roosevelt ^^
I was kinda surprised that Ark would explain his stuff w/in the context of 站樁(zhan zhuang) since he tries to separate what he does from it. (Though it does serve a similar purpose). Actually I was the one that translated his 形、功、法 methedology, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't mention it
I don't think it's surprising that the japanese had their own version of zhan zhuang stuff tho. Its fundamental if you want to build the body's foundation up.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2005, 09:08 AM   #209
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Think you misread one of the characters Roosevelt ^^
I was kinda surprised that Ark would explain his stuff w/in the context of 站樁(zhan zhuang) since he tries to separate what he does from it. (Though it does serve a similar purpose). Actually I was the one that translated his 形、功、法 methedology, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't mention it
I don't think it's surprising that the japanese had their own version of zhan zhuang stuff tho. Its fundamental if you want to build the body's foundation up.
It just sad to hear that a tai chi teacher/master who doesn't think tai chi is one of the ways to accquire Ki/Chi.

I'd be interested to get a copy of his 形、功、法 if that's possible.

I just started the zhan zhuang and found its hard to do without a teacher. It's hard to find one in my area. I've tried a few things from your pm. I found it gave me feedback fetter than standing. I just wonder if I can find the source of his method and train. Thanks for the clarification.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2005, 09:42 AM   #210
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
It just sad to hear that a tai chi teacher/master who doesn't think tai chi is one of the ways to accquire Ki/Chi.

I'd be interested to get a copy of his 形、功、法 if that's possible.

I just started the zhan zhuang and found its hard to do without a teacher. It's hard to find one in my area. I've tried a few things from your pm. I found it gave me feedback fetter than standing. I just wonder if I can find the source of his method and train. Thanks for the clarification.
Um, he doesn't say that either. In fact he thinks its an excellent vehicle to gain body skills, under the right instruction. He just prefers a different methedology, but he does teach hsing-yi in his curriculum. The Kei Kou Hou theory is a little abstract, but if you're in for it, http://homepage3.nifty.com/aunkai/en...utu/index.html
is where you'll find the english version. There's a japanese version also, on the normal page. Unfortunately, it might be hard to get for those not "in the know". I'm making a simplified version that tries to express the same concepts, but in a simpler, and more down to earth manner ^^;
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2005, 11:33 AM   #211
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Um, he doesn't say that either. In fact he thinks its an excellent vehicle to gain body skills, under the right instruction. He just prefers a different methedology, but he does teach hsing-yi in his curriculum. The Kei Kou Hou theory is a little abstract, but if you're in for it, http://homepage3.nifty.com/aunkai/en...utu/index.html
is where you'll find the english version. There's a japanese version also, on the normal page. Unfortunately, it might be hard to get for those not "in the know". I'm making a simplified version that tries to express the same concepts, but in a simpler, and more down to earth manner ^^;
Unfortunately, I'm not impressed. Even I "get" it, it doesn't tell me "how" to get there. What' s in that page is nothing new nor haven't been said before by other MA in my naive eyes.

What I'm interested is the training method and bio-feedback. For example, assume in standing posture, I'm told to stand feet apart shoulder wise, feet parallel, shin parallel, flex knees, loose your hip and make it round at fork, straight back, no buffy chest, lower shoulder and arms, elbow points outwords, tuck chin, straight in line between the top of the head (Bai hui), perineum (hui yin), and bubbling well points (yung ch'uan). ask some to push you from shoulder, you should feel the force down to the ground.

That's something I can practice and get it right (or wrong at this moment).

May I make a humble suggestion?

You guys may want to go easy on the theory part. I doubt any ground breaking new things will come out. I think what most people need is a different method to train. Maybe even an old method with better feedback system. I think most people will benefit if you can sepnd more time on your training method and feedback system in DETAIL.

Thanks for the link.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2005, 07:59 PM   #212
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm not impressed. Even I "get" it, it doesn't tell me "how" to get there. What' s in that page is nothing new nor haven't been said before by other MA in my naive eyes.

That's something I can practice and get it right (or wrong at this moment).

You guys may want to go easy on the theory part. I doubt any ground breaking new things will come out. I think what most people need is a different method to train. Maybe even an old method with better feedback system. I think most people will benefit if you can sepnd more time on your training method and feedback system in DETAIL.

Thanks for the link.
Hey Roosevelt,

Thanks for your blunt opinoin, I really do appreciate it.
I was discussing this with Ark before, trying to cook up a better way to explain his approach. The major problem with trying to explain the exercises is (and this isn't a diss to you) for the most part, people will try to understand the exercises described within the context of how they've trained up until that point.
I myself trained under an extremely legit CMA guy (Sam Chin in NYC) and while his training was good, if I were to read written descriptions of Ark's training methedology, the person I was back then would simply try to "peg" what I knew into what was being described to me. So really it's a moot point. It has to be felt to be understood. If a picture conveys a thousand words, and video ten thousand, I'd say Touch conveys a million.

Despite this we are thinking of putting up stuff describing certain exercises. But the reality is, even if we do that, you're only going to get a very limited benefit.

For the website, I've written up a piece trying to describe how Aunkai's approach, and the resulting body differs from what the general public percieves as "martial arts". Also I try to offer up examples whereby with this "different" approach while you don't "intend" to become stronger neccessarily, you end up with a skill that allows you to punch much deeper, move in a way that people don't expect, and more or less try to give real world examples of how the body skill can be used...

For the meantime I posted the Ten-Chi-Jin and Shintaijiku exercises, and those in themselves, if you realize what they're training, are extremely effective. If you have any questions regarding what kind of feel you should be getting, feel free to PM me (this goes for anyone).
I will say those exercises, if you haven't done them before, will have you exhausted and shaking after 3-4 reps of Ten-Chi-Jin. For SHintaijiku, 2min done low like he does should have your back aching, legs on fire, figertips nearly numb, and your nerves doing a two step all around your body
If not, you're not doing it correctly

You are extremely correct about one thing though Roosevelt, precise, hands on instruction is needed in this stuff. Whether you take his approach, a CMA approach, JMA approach it doesnt matter. You can vague ideas via words, but ultimately it has to be taught hands on

JM2C

Last edited by Upyu : 12-16-2005 at 08:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2005, 08:14 PM   #213
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I'm told to stand feet apart shoulder wise, feet parallel, shin parallel, flex knees, loose your hip and make it round at fork, straight back, no buffy chest, lower shoulder and arms, elbow points outwords, tuck chin, straight in line between the top of the head (Bai hui), perineum (hui yin), and bubbling well points (yung ch'uan). ask some to push you from shoulder, you should feel the force down to the ground.
Quick pieces of advice, take it or lose it, I don't care
"no buffy chest" also means don't concave it excessively. Something i see a lot in the CMA world. Here's one thing you can do to grab the correct feeling (as far as I know)
Pinch your shoulder blades together with your arms extended. Now keeping the elbows rather straight, drop your shoulders (which probably were raised when you pinched the shoulder blades together). Push out to the finger tips. WHen you do this, notice how your chest which was jutting out, has to go concave just a bit. I've found that's probably just the right amount that you need.

"bubbling well points"
Overrated. You can't feel them immediately (I thought I did in my previous training and I really didn't)
Practice coming to the heel and to the toe, and distributing tension throughout the body. If you practice at both extremes you'll eventually come back to the middle (around the bubbling well point).
And the "middle" isn't something you rest on. It's almost like you skid over it, you're in a state of balanced "imbalance". And when you're in this state its easier to take your opponents balance.

"Tuck Chin"
Don't force it. It needs to be a result of the structure, or else there's no real meaning to do it. I'd say concentrate on putting slight tension in the back of the neck area instead.

"Push to ground"
WHen someone pushes you, you shouldn't be "resisting" there push. Find a way to push the ground w/out "pushing it". If you already have this down then you're off to a good start

More than that, study your feedback and concentrate on the spinal area in general. Don't get overly fixated on the mingmen/perinium and stuff. It should fall together naturally. Experiment w/ tensing the back/spinal area and relaxing it. Remember they say relax, but its not really "relaxed". Don't be afraid to experiment with extreme tension, but don't get caught up in it either.

Just some thoughts from what I've come through in my own training
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 11:27 AM   #214
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

[quote=Robert John]Quick pieces of advice, take it or lose it, I don't care [/QUOTE} Hi Rob:

Let me throw in my 2 cents on top of what you've said, with the same aplomb:

Quote:
"no buffy chest" also means don't concave it excessively.
Well, the back is rounded in order to 'connect' the Ki across the back; this somewhat hollows the chest.
Quote:
Push out to the finger tips. WHen you do this, notice how your chest which was jutting out, has to go concave just a bit. I've found that's probably just the right amount that you need.
This goes along with the rounding of the back and keeping the "connection" from the back out to the fingertips.
Quote:
"bubbling well points"
Overrated. You can't feel them immediately (I thought I did in my previous training and I really didn't)
Practice coming to the heel and to the toe, and distributing tension throughout the body. If you practice at both extremes you'll eventually come back to the middle (around the bubbling well point).
And the "middle" isn't something you rest on. It's almost like you skid over it, you're in a state of balanced "imbalance". And when you're in this state its easier to take your opponents balance.
Well, the "connection" (this is the yin to the yang kokyu force, the "ground path", kokyu) works its way from the back (particularly at the mingmen) down the 'outside' of the legs, over the knees, heel, etc., to the "Bubbling Well" point and then to the big toe. If you have a good "connection" AND good jin, the "Bubbling Well" point becomes pretty obvious. The point is part of the kidney meridian, surprise, and the most power is developed from the "kidney" area... this turns out to be true for physical reasons, BTW.
Quote:
"Tuck Chin"
Don't force it. It needs to be a result of the structure, or else there's no real meaning to do it. I'd say concentrate on putting slight tension in the back of the neck area instead.
You can pretend that there is a thin sheet of leather covering the back, tied into the backs of the shoulders, the sacrum region, and the occipital region at the base of the skull. You need to stretch the leather ever so slightly so that there is a 'connection'. Bringing the shoulders slightly forward (which coincidentally hollows the chest) will help the stretch. Lifting the head slightly upward and tucking the chin slightly will help the stretch. Dropping the butt downward (by relaxing the back and knees) will help the stretch.
Quote:
"Push to ground"
WHen someone pushes you, you shouldn't be "resisting" there push. Find a way to push the ground w/out "pushing it". If you already have this down then you're off to a good start
I agree.... this is the basic start.

Nice post, Rob. Merry Ho Ho.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 06:52 PM   #215
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 993
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Nice descriptions.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 09:47 PM   #216
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The point is part of the kidney meridian, surprise, and the most power is developed from the "kidney" area... this turns out to be true for physical reasons,
Oooh... never really thought about it in those terms..but I *think I have the same kind of connection... just never payed attention to it yet.

Quick comment on the back rounding thing, when I used to practice I-liq-chuan, the same thing was stressed, rounding the back/mingmen, to stretch or "project" along the back outwards to the fingertips etc. Only when I did it then it was artificial, and definitely no good. Excessively rounding the back is probably as bad as having the "buffy" chest, so experiementing to find the middle ground is definitely key I think.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 11:50 PM   #217
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Thanks, Mike and Rob. The description is useful.

The Yi Quan Stake Exercise is in mail. Hopefully it'll provide more information.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2005, 07:40 AM   #218
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Quick comment on the back rounding thing, when I used to practice I-liq-chuan, the same thing was stressed, rounding the back/mingmen, to stretch or "project" along the back outwards to the fingertips etc. Only when I did it then it was artificial, and definitely no good. Excessively rounding the back is probably as bad as having the "buffy" chest, so experiementing to find the middle ground is definitely key I think.
Hi Rob:
Probably the best way to look at the fingertips (as an example; this must apply to the whole body at all times, in reality) is that the fingertips must be physically connected to the "center" (the control station) so that the "ground path" or "kokyu" or whatever you want to call it is always there in the fingertips. But at the same time the pulling-connection to the center must always be there as well. Yin and Yang. Tohei covers this with "extending ki" and "heavyside down", for all practical purposes. Yang ki and Yin ki... the 'A' and 'Un' boys.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2005, 12:10 AM   #219
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Rupert: What "energy focuses from your centre"? That's the heart of what I'm trying to ask. How does Ki *functionally* apply to the sword swing? How does it give or add power to the swing? If it's just a matter of how you grip the sword, which hand is the "power" hand, etc., one may as well be the ordinary lumberjack, plying his trade.

Regards,

Mike
We never really discussed this, but I'm pretty sure the mechanics of chopping wood is the same, except the lumberjack has the advantage of using the axe head like a pendulum weight, and the primary difference between a sword and an axe is one is a slicing weapon, and the other a hacking tool. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is like using an escrima stick like a machette, as opposed to a club.

In wood chopping, the entire body needs to be engaged, as it is most efficient way to chop wood for an extended period of time without getting unduly tired or worn in the shoulders and arms.

Weight is transferred from front foot to back during the upswing and reversed on the downswing. The idea is to use a relaxed wave-like motion as you draw the force up from the ground to the tip of the axe thru the "center" - actually, I feel it more in my hips and lower back. Very little power is attributed to the hands, since the hands play an important role in controlling where and how the strike lands. I'm pretty sure it's the same with the sword, although I have never done tameshigiri, so I wouldn't know.

With a sword, it's more like a whip, and if you're doing it correctly, you should hear it "hum" and "whistle", thru the air, which never fails to impress the hell out of the kids.

Personally, I prefer wood chopping as it gives my lungs a much better "workout" than suburi - either that or I need a much heavier bokuto.

* goes back to chopping wood *

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2005, 06:46 AM   #220
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Hi Ignatius:

Well, let me start off by noting that "Ki" is related to strength and that the stronger you get the more "Ki" you have because if you develop muscles, etc., you can't help but develop some of the natural Ki of the body. So I'm not saying definitively that a lumberjack does not have any Ki in his swing. However, having Ki and deliberately cultivating and using it are two different things... that's another reason why kokyu/jin skills are considered "ki" and not normal strength.

But are the "mechanics" of chopping wood by a skilled wood-chopper and by a skilled wood-chopper using Ki the same mechanics? No. The body mechanics of someone using Ki are quite different from someone, no matter how skilled, not using Ki. And of course, by us using this illustration of a woodchopper, we can understand that there are some pretty skilled woodchoppers who certainly don't need Ki to ply their trade.... just because someone doesn't have Ki doesn't mean they are enfeebled. So someone might use this example to ask why we are placing so much importance on Ki skills, considering the example of two woodchoppers, one with Ki and one without.

First of all, everything else being equal, the woodchopper having good ki and ki-skills will be stronger. Secondly, Aikido is not woodchopping and involves a number of applications in which the Ki give as advantage in applying a technique, but most of all in *combinging with the force of the opponent* ....a piece of wood does not need to be "aiki' ed", but a person does, in this higher level of mechanics.

So the real question in the woodchopper analogy is how he swings the axe with ki and without ki... and they are different. It's just like the question of how a punch is done with and without Ki... the mechanics are quite a bit different (and of course there are variations in how to punch, even among people who use Ki). And sword-swinging is no different... technique of swinging shouldn't be confused with the idea of swinging using ki strength and swinging using 'technique'.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2005, 06:54 AM   #221
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Actually I would not equate effective cutting with a sword with Ki extensions.
I forge swords I have been cutting with them -and chopping cordwood for that matter- for decades. I cut trees with my katana, up to 3," on a regular basis, I also train spear and bojutsu with steel earth digging bars. Yet I do not believe in Ki nor have I used "ki extension" to cut anything. Proof being in the pudding -how does it relate to the many other men who cut competitively? Some of whom I know who do not believe in an ki theory either.

When thinking of swords you should also remember that there are distinct and differing methods for cutting with them. I don't think an adept from Yagyu ryu will be confused with an adept from Katori shinto ryu anytime soon. Like with the internal discussion going on here... it isn't about technique either. It is how you cut and why.
I know how I cut, I have taught others -to- cut. I have never, not even once said "Extend your ki."

Boxing and PKer's
It is my belief that internal work (albeit crude or low level) is the "why" behind the age old boxing question of why some men are devestating knock-out punchers and others not so much. But they all remain good boxers. I do not believe it has been truly addressed by boxers or trainers, nor can they accurately say why one can hit so hard when others cannot. I think the answer lies in the boxer's own internal compass. The moment of when he may connect and transfer power or when others use all muscle to do the same.
the same goes for Punching and kicking. It is easy to wind up and use muscle, and the feedbck is immediate. So most rely on that feedback instead of exploring the mechanics of a relaxed, dynamic kick or punch that is more deep and penetrating.
Does everything benefit from internal work? Yes. Is it one thing or one method for everything? No.

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-19-2005 at 07:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2005, 06:59 AM   #222
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,435
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

[quote=Mike Sigman]Hi Ignatius:

Well, let me start off by noting that "Ki" is related to strength and that the stronger you get the more "Ki" you have because if you develop muscles, etc., you can't help but develop some of the natural Ki of the body. So I'm not saying definitively that a lumberjack does not have any Ki in his swing. However, having Ki and deliberately cultivating and using it are two different things... that's another reason why kokyu/jin skills are considered "ki" and not normal strength.

This is weird. Some guys that come into the dojo are really strong and think they have one point yet they have no ki to project.

All this technical talk about ki loses me. Keeping your mind and body together by feeling and trusting you center just seems a lot easier.

Mary
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2005, 07:08 AM   #223
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Actually I would not equate effective cutting with a sword with Ki extensions.
I forge swords I have been cutting with them -and chopping cordwood for that matter- for decades. I cut trees with my katana, up to 3," on a regular basis, I also train spear and bojutsu with steel earth digging bars. Yet I do not believe in Ki nor have I used "ki extension" to cut anything. Proof being in the pudding -how does it relate to the many other men who cut competitively? Some of whom I know who do not believe in an ki theory either.
I'm not sure what the point is. If you get a bunch of weight-lifters together and have a contest and then ask them what they know about Ki and whether they think it will help their weight-lifting, they'll all reply in the negative. Yet they'll all point to how much weight they can lift, how much they lift daily, etc. No one has said that unless you have ki you can't do such-and-such, Dan.

Quote:
It is my belief that internal work (albeit crude or low level) is the "why" behind the age old boxing question of why some men are devestating knock-out punchers and others not so much. But they all remain good boxers. I do not believe it has been truly addressed by boxers or trainers, nor can they accurately say why one can hit so hard when others cannot. I think the answer lies in the boxer's own internal compass. The moment of when he may connect and transfer power or when others use all muscle to do the same.
OK, so now we're back to a definable topic again. What do you think are the actual body mechanics.... the physics, if you will... of a good puncher using ki or his "internal compass", etc., as opposed to someone else who also hits well?

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2005, 07:10 AM   #224
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
All this technical talk about ki loses me. Keeping your mind and body together by feeling and trusting you center just seems a lot easier.
Can you tell us how this works, Mary... or is it just a matter of faith and not something you ever need to explain to the like-minded?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2005, 07:28 AM   #225
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

OK, so now we're back to a definable topic again. What do you think are the actual body mechanics.... the physics, if you will... of a good puncher using ki or his "internal compass", etc., as opposed to someone else who also hits well?

Regards,

Mike



Yes we are Mike. I can not only describe it, I have actually (as opposed to just yakin on the internet) fixed it for men who have asked.

My point was that much can be done with muscle as a default, improvements can be made with good body work. Improvements that will have levels, or incremental results. But then there are leaps when the ability to connect really starts to come through.
They are each different. Do you know why?
What the difference is between the three and not just the two?
Wise guy

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-19-2005 at 07:33 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Article: Head, Shoulders, Knees, and Toes by Michael J. Hacker AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 13 12-05-2005 04:47 PM
Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido Ellis Amdur General 46 06-24-2005 07:33 AM
Basic elements of Aikido Mary Eastland Spiritual 109 06-15-2005 09:09 PM
Ueshiba + Chin-Na? feck General 15 05-18-2005 09:34 PM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 06:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:02 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate