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Old 12-21-2005, 07:10 AM   #251
DH
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

I should have said that this divided pelvic work was (in my view) the driving force behind what I saw in this one silk reeling exercise I was shown. I won't mention the rather mundane names we attached to much of this.
Have you done judo style throw resistence and collapsing work or do you stay mostly with the kick and punch? How do you recieve/deal with jabs, feints, and head hunting?
cheers
Dan
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Old 12-21-2005, 07:51 AM   #252
roosvelt
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:

I was recently shown this pelvic and dividing work was in fact- a silk reelling exercise
Maybe the standing kokyu-dosa is a silk reeling exercise.

http://www.taichichen.com/chenresour...deos.htm#Vid13

I think this description is better than any I've got from any Aikido instructors. If I can find a good tai-chi or qi gong master in my area, I'll switch right away.

"In combat the Silk Reeling contains both Yin and Yang aspects. In Yin ("female") mode it can be used to dissipate and neutralise the force of an incoming opponent by "turning it into an empty place."

When Silk Reeling Skill is used in Yang ("male") mode the spiral movement "collects" muscle force from around the whole body by means of a sort of rising "shock wave" that rides on top of normal body movement. It is first dropped down from the dantian (diaphragm area) to the legs then "bounced" back up the body with additional energy added by untwining the torso as the "wave" rises. Finally this force is "discharged" in the extremities of the body (fist, elbow, shoulder) on contact with an opponent in a frightening pulse of concentrated momentum.

Often both Yin/Yang aspects are combined so that the force of an incoming opponent is "re-vectored." In other words the Silk-Reeling can be used to "rebound" the force of an incoming opponent back upon himself. The faster the attack the faster the rebound - much like objects thrown at a fast spinning top."
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:52 PM   #253
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I should have said that this divided pelvic work was (in my view) the driving force behind what I saw in this one silk reeling exercise I was shown. I won't mention the rather mundane names we attached to much of this.
Have you done judo style throw resistence and collapsing work or do you stay mostly with the kick and punch? How do you recieve/deal with jabs, feints, and head hunting?
cheers
Dan
Most of the body work that I've seen Ark use in a relatively more free format is Yagyu shingan related stuff. Lots of elbows held close the body(running them close to the lines of the body), and as soon as contact is made, you use the body to move around the person, while the hands ensnare the other person. Some of it ends up looking like Hsing-i/baji,Pigua (other cma styles).
I'll see if I can't get a video of it some time.
With boxing, he tends to jam the opponent. Since there's no telegraphing movement, it's really unnerving when he starts coming at you. His ability to instantly change levels on the verticle axis and suddenly "not" be there tends to throw a wrench in the game as well.
Shoots, takedowns, either he can simply move out of the way after stopping your structure with a seemingly light touch, or as a trick he'll just let you shoot his leg, reinforce the path to it (which makes it feel unmovable), and then he collapses his knee on top of you.

The most overriding difference I'd have to say is that, it doesnt *feel like sparring when he moves. Which makes it uncomfortable for the opponent to move or do anything.
For those that understand japanese it's かなりいやな感じ。。。気持ち悪いくらい。

Of course it'll be really fun if we can get some kind of 90kg+ brow beater into the class. Which is why I joined a BJJ school over here in Tokyo
Actually on a different tangent, I just got back from my 2nd day of BJJ, and I can say that I can roll on an almost equal level w/ the purple belts and even choked out one of them twice. Big $#$#er, outweighed me by at least 35lb, all muscle.
(Tho I got my ass kicked plenty as well, by some of the others ).
The most interesting thing was that rolling on the ground using Ark's principals felt totally natural.
My last ground experience was a couple months newaza Judo about 3, 3.5 years back
I don't know the finishes, but defense, and understanding when you were vulnerable/what to do to get out, felt totally natural, especially when rolling with someone that was heavier, and much more technically proficient.
Other thing was, using Ark's principals on the ground uses much much much less strength over all. Stamina wise I was definitely on the top end of the group (and I'm not exaggerating).
Now it's back to 工夫(kufuu) kufuu kufuu, and figure out a new way to move on the ground

Last edited by Upyu : 12-21-2005 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 12-21-2005, 04:31 PM   #254
eyrie
 
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Maybe the standing kokyu-dosa is a silk reeling exercise.
At a principle level, I don't believe there is much difference between taiji/silk-reeling and aikido. What matters is the spirit (kokoro) in which it is trained. Someone mentioned previously a quote from Terry Dobson that "the form of aikido is the enemy of aikido". What that means is that too much focus on the form as technical responses to set attacks detracts from the real meaning of aikido. IOW, the form merely provides a structure with which to explore energy.

Ignatius
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Old 12-21-2005, 04:35 PM   #255
eyrie
 
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
...don't know the finishes, but defense, and understanding when you were vulnerable/what to do to get out, felt totally natural, especially when rolling with someone that was heavier, and much more technically proficient.
Heh heh, same problem.

Picked up a few nice "finishes" in jujitsu though....

Ignatius
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Old 12-22-2005, 06:35 AM   #256
DH
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Mr. Freeman
Exactly
I might add that seeing it and describing it are one thing- being able to actually do it for real (staticallly) is another and then...being able to do it on the fly is a whole other animal. One that I think many are just kidding themselves about. Dojo training with "ukes" is just not fighting.
Do it too men who don't take ukemi and want to kick your ass. it..uhm..."changes the dynamic."
There are ways to train both and people do talk about it, but then again people tend to talk about things quite bit.

For basics and dojo stuff the mechanic of the excercise is sound -the application is myriad.
It is a hell of a wrist grab trick that most will fail (they will pull or push with their arm and shoulder girdle.Next they will flex and yank.
It is also a hell of a whip from a typical japanese style shoulder and wrist-restraint. They cannot sense the power that makes the "draw" and they go flying as "they" flex and base out.
And yes it is one of the forces that can drive the standard aikido Kokyu-throw. Though there are several other mechanics and directions that can make it more fun. Depending on what the guy is dong to you.
and last you can capture punches and tackles with it and send the force down.
Mind you it will NOT look like that fluffy sort of exercise if you fight with it, but it will work.... due to your fluffy exercising. My wife still comes out at night and catches me training in the living room and rolls her eyes.
Last you can try application training.
Do free form with it -try just walking and bumping into each other first and then gradually start pushing each other around, then start punching and kicking- you will discover where you can collapse with it or expand with it then combine it with other structural ground-path work, breath work and flexible internal work. When you add punching kicking and throwing of your own in return it will make a person extremely difficult to manage.
The real pleasure is having smaller guys I have taught handle me and see the delight in their eyes.

Anyway, approached in an open manner- it can be taught. With some people they will tell you..."oh I don't know exaclty what I am doing but just keep trying." others will do the classic Japanese push away "do this or that for years" to see if you will keep coming back. Still others will see if the student is thinking about just what in thee hell they are supposed to be "feeling." when they are "doing."
Remember that students are just as dissapointing as teachers.
To find a teacher who is direct and open and has something worth learning is difficult. Finding a student worth devoting your time and energy into is harder still

I don't dismiss internal training-I dismiss those who go on and on but can't really apply it to anything meaningful.
Paper tigers is an accurate description of many mens efforts and an old story-but "Dojo tigers" are as well.

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-22-2005 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 12-22-2005, 07:04 AM   #257
DH
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

For clarity

"Applying it to anyhting meaningful" which I stated above does not have to include fighting at all-at least in my book. It can mean anything practical in freeflow use from dance to rock climbing to Martial arts(which is a hell of a test).
I am having my 83 yr father-in-law do a series of stability exercises for his health and balance.
cheers
Dan
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Old 12-31-2005, 08:11 PM   #258
Mike Sigman
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
At a principle level, I don't believe there is much difference between taiji/silk-reeling and aikido. What matters is the spirit (kokoro) in which it is trained. Someone mentioned previously a quote from Terry Dobson that "the form of aikido is the enemy of aikido". What that means is that too much focus on the form as technical responses to set attacks detracts from the real meaning of aikido. IOW, the form merely provides a structure with which to explore energy.
Well, silk-reeling has as it's core the same jin-essence that is kokyu, but the way the body is used is quite different. "Silk Reeling" is by definition "Six Harmonies Movement" and Aikido does not have this.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-04-2006, 05:49 PM   #259
eyrie
 
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

It doesn't??? Or.... because most people don't train that way?

Ignatius
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Old 01-04-2006, 06:10 PM   #260
Mike Sigman
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

It doesn't. Trust me. "Reeling Silk" isn't something that can be faked offhand by anyone... it takes a lot of practice. I.e., if it was anywhere in Aikido, I'd have seen it. Besides, there's no background for Aikido to have reeling silk since Aikido looks pretty certainly to be derived from Shaolin Buddhist practices.

Mike
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:26 PM   #261
eyrie
 
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Not even from a principle perspective of the 6 harmonies?

Just curious, what is the origin of liuhebafa?

Ignatius
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:44 PM   #262
Mike Sigman
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Re: Japanese "Ki," Chinese "Chi"

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Not even from a principle perspective of the 6 harmonies?

Just curious, what is the origin of liuhebafa?
Silk Reeling is emphasized six-harmonies movement. 6H is common to Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji, but is very emphasized in Bagua and Taiji. When you say 6 Harmonies, it essentially means the internal harmonies of "heart leads mind" (I *want* to do something and that *want* triggers the mind to act), "mind leads qi" (the mind directs the qi... i.e., this is the mind-body connection part of it), "qi leads strength" (i.e., a jin path is the physical manifestation of the "qi" directed by the mind). Technically, the 3 internal harmonies are part of any good martial art that uses jin/kokyu strength. However, the winding is what the 3 external harmonies refer to: wrist-ankle, elbow-knee, shoulder-hip. Aikido does not do this. It doesn't mean "sometimes"... it means the body winds always as a unit.

Liu He Ba Fa (Six Harmonies Eight Methods) is very popular in Hong Kong and southern China, but it seems to have a bogus history that, while claiming to go back thousands of years, only goes back to the early 1900's. I've forgotten all the details of the bogosity, but it's pretty commonly shrugged off as being fairly recent (the Hong Kong version... there is apparently some older art with the same name).

FWIW

Mike
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Old 02-16-2006, 12:41 PM   #263
SMART2o
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I haven't seen anyone approaching chi in chinese systems like I see ki being approached in aiki-focused systems. [see 1].
Rob

I have. Watch a Baguazhang demonstration.
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