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Old 11-14-2005, 11:16 AM   #1
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Well, IMHO, ki in aikido is sort of a misnomer and overstatement. The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'.

However, due to influence of Tohei and others, the idea of ki in aikido has gotten popular and is an exploration in an of itself. However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems.

If you want to learn about ki or aiki in aikido, do aikido. If you want to do ki aikido, get into a good ki aikido school and study hard. Too bad George Simcox is gone. He was one of the very few aikidoka who 'got' ki.

If you want to dig deeper, take a look at Daito Ryu.

If you want to learn about chi, do Chi Gung or something of the sort.

If you want to learn about aiki, grab a sword and get into a good koryu dojo.

Ki, chi? Apples, oranges.

YMMV.

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Old 11-14-2005, 01:48 PM   #2
kironin
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
If you want to learn about aiki, grab a sword and get into a good koryu dojo.

YMMV.

word from the dark side.

Craig

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Old 11-14-2005, 07:06 PM   #3
roosvelt
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

<<However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems.
:
:
Ki, chi? Apples, oranges.>>

If O'sensei's jo-trick wasn't a demonstration of chi, I don't know what is ki then? Chi is Ki. Ki is Chi. You need to have Ki/Chi yourself first, then you can talk about AiKi/AiChi.

I do agree that Aikido doesn't teach Ki/Chi much.
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:31 PM   #4
David Yap
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I do agree that Aikido doesn't teach Ki/Chi much.
Hi Roosvelt,

First of all, who do you agree with?

Whether Ki is taught and how it is taught depends on the school (styles) and the teachers (shihan and instructors). I have not trained in Ki Aikido but the literatures and websites on it show that the system of training emphasize that the practitioners of the art acquire the feel and utilization of Ki at the shortest time. The system includes exercises for feeling Ki and tests for determining the level of skill.

The instructors in my Aikikai aikido do not talk (teach) about Ki. It does not mean that all of them do not have Ki. Ki is cultivated individually and acquired after long and proper training. In our system (or lack of system) Ki is absolutely esoteric - either one has it or does not have it. While we have 3rd dan instructors with subtle flowing Ki techniques and we also have 3rd /4th Dan who are devastating brutes. The sum of it is, "Aiki Do does mean different thing to different people"

Best training

David Y
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Old 11-15-2005, 01:30 AM   #5
Olaf
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
... It does not mean that all of them do not have Ki. Ki is cultivated individually and acquired after long and proper training. In our system (or lack of system) Ki is absolutely esoteric - either one has it or does not have it. ...
David Y
Well, I have yet to meet a person without Ki, unless he/she's dead already. Wether we cultivate "Ki" and use it more than others (maybe its possible, maybe we just like to believe in it) by studying the way of our choice.. that is a different question, I think.

Olaf Schubert
Aikido Dojo Rodgau
www.aikido-dojo-rodgau.de
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Old 11-15-2005, 04:41 AM   #6
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
word from the dark side.

Craig
Heya Bro'! How you doing? You gonna be in the area when the delicate Flower and I come in to Austin (June-ish)?

cg

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Old 11-23-2005, 02:00 PM   #7
kironin
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Heya Bro'! How you doing? You gonna be in the area when the delicate Flower and I come in to Austin (June-ish)?
cg
Hey!Yeah, not going anywhere that I know of yet!
Love to see ya guys.

Been extremely busy working on building a business outside of my work so not much time (more like zero for the internet). And now I am also seriously building an Iaido program in Houston which I am enjoying tremendously maybe partly because I am in full control of it and partly because I have a good relationship with a teacher who I highly respect his depth of knowledge as well as his drive to continue to improve which is motivational for my own practice.

you guys a have great Turkey day with what fowl you can roast over there!

Craig

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Old 11-24-2005, 05:20 AM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Well, IMHO, ki in aikido is sort of a misnomer and overstatement. The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'.

However, due to influence of Tohei and others, the idea of ki in aikido has gotten popular and is an exploration in an of itself. However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems.
Would it be too much to ask you to support this assertion with some facts, etc., Chuck? Since Ki and Chi are the same word, have the same kanji, interpenetrate a number of martial, medical, mundane, etc., systems, it would be interesting to hear you explain what the differences are. To me it's like hearing you say that there is a fundamental difference between the use of chopsticks in Japan from the use of chopsticks in China.
Quote:
If you want to learn about aiki, grab a sword and get into a good koryu dojo.
Sounds like you're trying to provoke people with "koryu snobbism", Chuck!!
Quote:
Ki, chi? Apples, oranges.
And a little support for your assertions? I realize it gets tiresome with me asking for (never-delivered) support to some of your statements, Chuck, but I think that even I would blush after making a statement like you just made. Even the caveat "YMMV" doesn't mean you're above being asked for clarification.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-24-2005, 06:13 AM   #9
rob_liberti
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

The "O" I breathe and the "O" within H2O I am about to shower with is fundimentally the same for sure too, but I think it is clear that the combination takes on many different properties from the principle parts.

The term "aiki" was borrowed from a sword school using it to describe okuden level (level of depth). I would certainly concede that having good mind/body integration is a large part of that depth. I certainly do not think it is the only aspect of that depth. There is also the aspect of intimately knowing and using the overall movement and timing. How that is approached, developed, and achieved along with good mind/body integration is different from school to school and from art to art in my experiences. (In that respect YMMV for sure!) Of course, if I saw a bunch of accomplished Chen style Tai Chi folks walk into an aikido dojo for the first time and start doing swuari waza kokyu tanden ho, ikkyo, iriminage or even the standard ukemi we take in aikido effortlessly without much instruction, I would have to change my opinion.

Rob
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Old 11-24-2005, 06:25 AM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

I'm asking for specifics in the comparison and differences, not allusions,,,, if anyone can provide them.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-24-2005, 07:19 AM   #11
rob_liberti
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

And I was clarifying what I believed you minunderstood about Chuck's post.

Enjoy your turkey...

Rob
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Old 11-24-2005, 09:59 AM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
It is easy for some to complain when they never put their own stuff out there for public consumption, consideration, and criticism.
Why the cheap shot at some of the people offering their opinions, Lynn. Is this the "Aiki-Speak" I hear so much about?

Mike
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Old 11-26-2005, 11:01 PM   #13
Mark Uttech
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge.
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Old 11-27-2005, 03:26 AM   #14
David Yap
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge.
Thanks for the observation, Mark. Perhaps you would like to share with us the reason for that difference.

David Y
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Old 11-27-2005, 04:56 AM   #15
Mark Uttech
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Ha ha. The reason seems to be just the fact.
In gassho.
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Old 11-27-2005, 05:38 AM   #16
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge.
Well then, they must be totally different things, according to the wisdom some of the posts that I have seen. As Chuck Gordon said, "Apples, oranges".

I think we should make as our next topic "why there is so little progress in the deeper layers of martial arts". What are your thoughts???? ;^)

Mike
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Old 11-27-2005, 05:42 AM   #17
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Isn't it obvious Mike? Because we're expected to steal what we do not know we do not know....

Ignatius
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Old 11-27-2005, 05:54 AM   #18
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Isn't it obvious Mike? Because we're expected to steal what we do not know we do not know....
<< mouth falls open. brain melts>> Holy Smoke, Ignatius!!! You just played the "Trump Card"!

Mike
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Old 11-27-2005, 06:13 AM   #19
rob_liberti
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Exactly my point.

"One-point is the center of gravity. Kokyu-dosa is to relax and to hug the person behind uke." are quoted from the book.
Roosvelt, I notice that you are offering a complaint without a proposed solution. How would you present the information in a way that does show better understanding?

My opinion is that "one-point" is one of those concepts that needs to be explained in a level appropriate way. So to a novice, thinking of it as the center of gravity is a good starting place. What suggestions would you offer for the next levels of understanding? (This question is open to everyone of course...)

Rob

P.S. water and air might be considered different enough to be apples and oranges in terms of some comparisons. I think we are all in agreement that the problem with attaining depth might have something to do with the willingness and ability to comprehend information presented.

Last edited by rob_liberti : 11-27-2005 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:07 AM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
P.S. water and air might be considered different enough to be apples and oranges in terms of some comparisons. I think we are all in agreement that the problem with attaining depth might have something to do with the willingness and ability to comprehend information presented.
Once again, Rob.... instead of going off on allusory tangents so much, how about requesting that Chuck explain *substantively* how qi and ki are actually two different things. Even in martial arts. There is a heavy tendency in Aikido to present "feelings" as "facts" and to then castigate anyone who questions the feelings. Since that process doesn't stand up to even casual logic, you should be applauding the idea of dealing with real-world facts instead of "feelings" and metaphors/allusions.

The other great cop-out is to claim "Sensei So-and-so" did something, thus proving the point. Anyone even remotely familiar with debate and pseudo-debate topics recognizes that old saw, too.

If someone is qualified to teach and wants to publicly *assert* things, they should also be enough in the real world to be able to defend what they say factually. There are many "teachers" in the martial arts world who hide behind the fluffery with assertions... here's a chance to help the martial arts... although I realize that's not a top priority with a lot of people who are more interested in "position" than anything else.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-27-2005, 03:24 PM   #21
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge.
Not sure of relevance here, but Korean ones are squared-off flat

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 11-27-2005 at 03:33 PM.

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Old 11-27-2005, 03:29 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

sigh.
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Old 11-27-2005, 04:30 PM   #23
Upyu
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Thought I'd interject a little fire into this debate...

I've been reading the new book by Kimura about Sagawa and it's been inserting new thoughts into my head.

Couple of interesting quotes by sagawa (and to be clear, I'm not sure if I buy into them exactly) were to the tune of his brand of bodyskill (which he labeled as aiki) had little/nothing to do with the "ki" of Aikido. I don't think he was referring to the "mystical" interpretation of "ki" either, but rather the breath related stuff that Mike talks about.
This does not mean that the "ki" stuff can be merely discarded. Sagawa himself supposedly did intensive breath training for about 3-4 years before concluding that practicing it was a waste of time (for him, though this could have also meant that he found it a waste of time to be practiced as a focused exercise)

ANother thing:
Kimura mentioned (and I dont know how much he exaggerated this) that he was able to hold his seniors down with power after about 3 years
After about 7-8 years he was able to hold them down without "power". (Im guessing structure/groundpath)
But Sagawa told him it was still no good, that he was still using "power".
This points to the fact that Kimura progressed from
strength -> martial/internal power, but Sagawa's was neither of these.
BUT, it was a path he took himself in order to reach the next stage.
So really, (getting ready for the hot seat ^^ you could say where Tohei, or Shioda etc etc landed is really only the starting point for the deeper layers.

The conclusion to all of this mindless babble?
I don't think they're apples and oranges.
In fact there's parts that overlap tremendously, and the foundation to both Aiki, and the higher level of CMA JMA OMA OOMA MMA MMOMA ^^;
all require extreme training in painfully simple basics, which few really undertake these days.

Kimura (supposedly) did at least 1000 shiko a day to integrate his body, and said for him it was the daily training of this exercise that enabled him to eventually reach the next level in bodyskill.
(Ive found from my own training, you need to do this at least 200 times before your inner connections/nervous system really start getting a good workout)

If more people were willing to devote time to the "simple" exercises in these arts, I think we'd get voices that would have more concrete opinoins as to where the different arts' skills overlap and where they diverge. Anything else is just 能書き(nougaki, look it up, it describes what a lot in the MA world tend to do).

Last edited by Upyu : 11-27-2005 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 11-28-2005, 03:37 AM   #24
grondahl
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Robert John wrote:

Kimura (supposedly) did at least 1000 shiko a day to integrate his body, and said for him it was the daily training of this exercise that enabled him to eventually reach the next level in bodyskill.
(Ive found from my own training, you need to do this at least 200 times before your inner connections/nervous system really start getting a good workout)
Is that Shiko as in "knee-walking" ?

//Peter
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Old 11-28-2005, 04:34 AM   #25
Upyu
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Smile Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
Is that Shiko as in "knee-walking" ?

//Peter
Nope, Shiko, as in the ceremonial leg raising you see sumo wrestlers do before each match. Most people think it's simply an exercise to open the kua/pelvic crease area and increase the leg/back strength, but I've found it goes much deeper than that(No doubt what sagawa hinted at).
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