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Old 09-09-2008, 03:33 PM   #76
grondahl
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Have you seen a lot of well executed shomen uchi, yokomen uchi or maybe ushiro ryote dori-attacks during the street fights?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Why would you spend time training against a type of attack that you're very unlikely to encounter except as an incompetent and ineffective execution?
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Old 09-09-2008, 05:27 PM   #77
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
From your post I think you don't know how to kick. And also, you've never experienced correct kick. Otherwise you would never write such bizarre things like 'parrying with the hands' or 'catching the leg' - ask 3rd dan TKD to attack you and try to catch his leg LOL!!!!!!!. You are dreaming my friend............
Here's an example of a knockout from a leg catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snZ9x9ibf2I

In my Karate days leg catches were a standard sparring technique - especially because kicks often don't come out as cleanly in sparring as they look in kata.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-10-2008, 01:01 AM   #78
Mark Stokmans
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Re: Aikido and kicks

The sceptisime towards kicks that can be read in a number of previous posts is not new to me. There is a matter of hypocrisy in them though. First of all a lot of times people, when talking about kicks immidiately bring in the presumed impossiblity of doing anything with a kick by an experianced kicker. However these individuals do not do the same thing when talking about tsuki or shomen uchi or lapel grabs. Keri waza in my opinion is not about Aikido vs anything else. It is about an attack that we do not include in Aikido.

@ Szczepan: Thank you for your feedback, though nuance would not be misplaced. No I have not experiance 3rd Tae Kwondo kick. I have experianced Muay Thai kicks though, karate kicks and have competed in Jiu-jitsu Fighting system matches. The bizarre things I write might seem less bizar when you actually open your mind to try to understand what is meant by them. Don't Muay Thai fighters parry with the legs?

@ Mary: With all due respect, in fighting kicks are used. Denying that to me is just plain....unwise. And once more, it is beside the point. Like grondhal wrote, how often do you see a double handed wrist grab in a streetfight? And yet we practice it in Aikido.

And as far as injuries: in the three years we have been practicing there has not been a single injury...and I have taught these things even to beginners. Perhaps you have never been taught well or your ukemi is nog that good.

But now it seems as if I am carrying the gospel of Keri-waza. If people are not interested so be it. From experiance I know that training Keri-waza makes a lot of sense.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:05 AM   #79
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Mark Stokmans wrote: View Post
  • I have found no Aikikai Aikido dojo's incorporating Keri-waza in their curriculum as a fixed part of aikido training. I am still curious if there are any schools around which do have that;
  • Ukemi is not al that difficult. In dealing with Keri-waza we have made a division in three ways of dealing with a kick (before applying technique): Te-waza (parrying with the hands), Ashi-waza (parrying with your own legs) and Ashi-dori (catching the leg) Only in Ashi Dori does ukemi really change. And it is just a question of training.
  • Regular Aikido training does not prepare one automatically for Keri-waza training. The similarities between regular aikido attacks and Keri-waza are not enough.
  • The techniques applied to Keri-waza are essentially the same as regular techniques.
Good luck with your book. A good theme for it, absolutely.
My two cents:

In my dojo we include kicks - both defense against them, and some basic practice of them. Not that very frequently, though. There's so much to train in aikido...

As for parrying, I prefer to stress the taisabaki evasive movement, so that a parry will not be that necessary.

Of course, only practicing against kicks gives you real experience with it. On the other hand, I find that the regular aikido principles apply just the same. No difference. Still, it needs to be experienced and practiced - so that the students trust the regular aikido movements enough to do them also when confronted with kicks.

And yes, I agree with you that the aikido techniques applied are quite the same in keriwaza as on other attack forms. For reasons of positions and such, though, some aikido techniques may get more awkward and difficult than others.
I made a system of attacks and techniques on my website, where a few of the basic kicks are included. There, I noted how basic or advanced I regard the techniques to be against those kicks:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikido...hiwaza-mae.htm

Learning to kick decently takes significantly longer than learning to grab or strike. In the grand aikido curriculum there is just no time to learn everything equally well. Therefore, in my dojo I limit it to maegeri (front kick) and mawashigeri (roundhouse kick), and the latter only on chudan level. That's also what I limit it to, in my book about attacks in aikido.

A dojo with other priorities would certainly find time to learn sidekicks, spin kicks, jodan mawashigeri, and so on. But to find that time, they would need to exclude something else - or at least touch it briefer than other dojos do.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:18 AM   #80
Mark Stokmans
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Dear Stefan,

Thank you for your email. It is good to hear that you take the Keri-waza seriously.
Quote:
As for parrying, I prefer to stress the taisabaki evasive movement, so that a parry will not be that necessary.
Perhaps my use of the word parrying is cause for confusion. What I mean is not a block. It is very much a combination of taisabaki and tesabaki. On my weblog there are a few clips. Please take into account they are training clips, no demo, no real speed anything. Just basic training of forms. You will see a combination of taisabaki and tesabaki.

As for the basics: at the moment we are only studying Mae-geri and mawashi-geri because we are at the beginning of research and these to me are basic attacks. Any more exotic attacks are not basic. Its just a choice.

As for the vast aikido curriculum, I completely agree. It is a matter of how you prioritize in training.

Once again thank you for your reply.

Mark
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:22 AM   #81
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido and kicks

This guy advocates kick catching and kicks VERY hard.

http://ballhype.com/video/fight_scie...sh_test_dummy/

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:44 AM   #82
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Why does nage have to help uke to fall down? I recall you wrote interesting things about the ukemi of Tissier senseis ukes.

I hate ukemi after kicking. But that is only my problem. Not the problem of nage. So what are you talking about?

Carsten
Hi Carsten,
Hope you are doing well.
Well, in aikido nage takes care about attacker. That is why the aikido techniques have full of openenings and in the end we are throwing attacker gently out or trying to lock him down, also gently, instead of breaking his bones LOL You remember famous old saying from Himalaya : 'Love and Harmony with Univers' ?

So generally speaking, nage is trying to injure an attacker as less as possible. In a dojo set up, when attacker is cooperating, this principle is particularly reinforced. That is the only reason why the practice can be safe, as we don't have any security rules as in sport combats.

Ukes role it to protect himself with all his capacities, but if nage has bad will , uke can't take ukemi safely.

Is it answer your questions?

Nagababa

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Old 09-10-2008, 08:57 AM   #83
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Here's an example of a knockout from a leg catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snZ9x9ibf2I

In my Karate days leg catches were a standard sparring technique - especially because kicks often don't come out as cleanly in sparring as they look in kata.

Best,

Chris
Hi Chris,
Nice video. from such situation of course it is posiible,the kick was from close distans, slow and very weak.

However the set up of attack is not the same as in aikido practice. Normally we have one single attack from much longer distance. It allows attacker to generate a lot of speed and power.In such conditions, if nage is concetrated to catch a leg(instead of deep irimi to make distance shorter and attack directly the center of attacker), for sure he will get severly hit.

So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:25 AM   #84
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Mark Stokmans wrote: View Post
Keri waza in my opinion is not about Aikido vs anything else. It is about an attack that we do not include in Aikido.
The statement is quite shocking to me. May be you don't include it in your aikido. But in the world, there are very many teachers, where kicks are done more often then your famous 'grab my wrist' attack.

Quote:
Mark Stokmans wrote: View Post
@ Szczepan: Thank you for your feedback, though nuance would not be misplaced. No I have not experiance 3rd Tae Kwondo kick. I have experianced Muay Thai kicks though, karate kicks and have competed in Jiu-jitsu Fighting system matches. The bizarre things I write might seem less bizar when you actually open your mind to try to understand what is meant by them. Don't Muay Thai fighters parry with the legs?
Of course they do, but they have very special training to reinforce their legs, particularly shin. This process is long and very painful (they use baseball bat to do it... ). You must kill completely the sensitivity of this part of your leg.

Other sort of parrying is done by receiving a kick with bended inside knee.

Personally I doubt VERY much this two methods can be used successfully with aikido techniques. I don't see how you will create a momentum that will put off balance attacker by stopping dead his kick like that....Other thing is, how may aikidoka in the world will effectively reinforce a shin to be able to receive sever kick?

MT fighter also have special parry with their hands, but it is effective against the kick from very close distance and mostly with knee kick. I don't think such distance is right for aikido techniques.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:25 AM   #85
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,
Nice video. from such situation of course it is posiible,the kick was from close distans, slow and very weak.

However the set up of attack is not the same as in aikido practice. Normally we have one single attack from much longer distance. It allows attacker to generate a lot of speed and power.In such conditions, if nage is concetrated to catch a leg(instead of deep irimi to make distance shorter and attack directly the center of attacker), for sure he will get severly hit.

So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg
Well of course, if you set up the attack to put the defender at a disadvantage then you will have a problem - the same one you might have with any other striking attack.

However, if you are able to make a deep irimi to make the distance shorter there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get close enough to catch the leg effectively, it happens in MMA and Karate sparring all the time.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-10-2008, 02:31 PM   #86
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Re: Aikido and kicks

kicks, like any other attacks, have their strength and weakness, i.e. area of effectiveness. it's good to practice kicks with aikido from the point of understanding such area of weaknesses.

consider this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY6DQmRC_Dg
whenever you see a person close enough for a leg sweep, you are close enough for an aikido technique of some sort. from the point of understanding kick attacks, consider that folks who know how to kick don't just throw a single kick, usually a strike or two follow very close behind the kick. the range of effectiveness of kicks is closer than you think, i.e. maai. also, the most effective kicks tend to come very low and I would consider leg sweeps are kicks. It's fun to learn how to deal with kicks in aikido, as in everything else.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:12 PM   #87
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Re: Aikido and kicks

TKD KICK LOL!!!

Boon.

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Old 09-11-2008, 12:23 AM   #88
Mark Stokmans
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Szczepan: Concerning the MMT kicks. I know of them, as I said I have trained with them. At least I am happy you realise that it is possible to parry with your legs. As I explained to Stefan, it is a question of combination of movements. Of taisabaki and parrying, as is anything in Aikido. Learning from other MA's.

Quote:
The statement is quite shocking to me. May be you don't include it in your aikido. But in the world, there are very many teachers, where kicks are done more often then your famous 'grab my wrist' attack.
To me this is great. I have actually run into none in my country. Only over the internet have I heard some people mention they do include Keri-waza. My point by the way is not only that you should (at times) do "seomthing" with keri, but that it should be just as basic a form as shomen uchi or whatever.

Quote:
Personally I doubt VERY much this two methods can be used successfully with aikido techniques. I don't see how you will create a momentum that will put off balance attacker by stopping dead his kick like that....
Well if you are really curious, get the book (*shamelessly advertises his commercial product)

Quote:
So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg
What I always emphasize in Keri-waza training is that catching the leg is not the goal in dealing with a kick, it is a possibilty. If the situation occurs that you can catch it, you are in a very strong position to control uke.

@ phitruong: The most important thing to me in training with Keri is in effect understanding the new ma-ai. The energy, the distance the speed, and then handling this limb that we don't always understand the anatomical possibilities of. It is a lot of fun and educational.

Once again thank you for your replies.

Mark
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:10 AM   #89
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Re: Aikido and kicks

[quote=Mark Stokmans;215824]@ Mary: With all due respect, in fighting kicks are used. Denying that to me is just plain....unwise.{/quote]

"Unwise", how? Are you going to come to my house and piss on my lawn? Jeez, how do people make statements like this and claim they're making them "with all due respect"?

I stand by my statement. You're very unlikely to see a competently-executed kick in a so-called "street fight". For that matter, you'll see a lot of inept punches, too -- but it's easier to develop and execute an effective punch than it is to develop and execute an effective kick.

Quote:
Mark Stokmans wrote: View Post
But now it seems as if I am carrying the gospel of Keri-waza. If people are not interested so be it. .
Who said people weren't interested in it? All I said was that the justification for training against kicks shouldn't rest on the likelihood of encountering an effective kick in a self-defense situation. So what? I typically spend a couple of hours doing weapons training; what's the likelihood of my ever being attacked with a sword?
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:35 AM   #90
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg
Sanda/Sanshou guys have no problem with that, and they are hard hitters.

Some examples here: http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-7091005963756310113

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Old 09-11-2008, 09:25 AM   #91
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sanda/Sanshou guys have no problem with that, and they are hard hitters.
I think you miss the point. It's an often-repeated bit of martial arts foolishness that if someone tries to kick you, all you have to do is "catch the leg" or "trap the leg". That's a bit like saying that if someone throws you through the air, "all you have to do" is roll. It's all well and good...IF you've been taught how, IF you've trained for it (against someone who's doing it competently, with speed and force), and IF you've taken several sets of lumps getting there. You're not going to simply go from the theory of "just catch the leg" into being able to do it competently the first time you try, and if the first time you try is against a competent kicker who's really trying to kick you, you'll get painfully schooled.
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:19 AM   #92
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think you miss the point. It's an often-repeated bit of martial arts foolishness that if someone tries to kick you, all you have to do is "catch the leg" or "trap the leg".
Never heard that in years of martial arts training (read my profile, please) and competing most of them in striking based alive arts. Catching the leg is something you can do if you train for it, you know how to set it or if the ocasion arises and you're able to react on time.

Catching the leg is one of many options available.

Quote:
You're not going to simply go from the theory of "just catch the leg" into being able to do it competently the first time you try, and if the first time you try is against a competent kicker who's really trying to kick you, you'll get painfully schooled.
That's why things like sparring and healthy competition were developed. To be schooled in the mat to avoid being schooled in the street.

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Old 09-11-2008, 11:24 AM   #93
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think you miss the point. It's an often-repeated bit of martial arts foolishness that if someone tries to kick you, all you have to do is "catch the leg" or "trap the leg". That's a bit like saying that if someone throws you through the air, "all you have to do" is roll. It's all well and good...IF you've been taught how, IF you've trained for it (against someone who's doing it competently, with speed and force), and IF you've taken several sets of lumps getting there. You're not going to simply go from the theory of "just catch the leg" into being able to do it competently the first time you try, and if the first time you try is against a competent kicker who's really trying to kick you, you'll get painfully schooled.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think people were advocating training for catching the kick, not just saying "Oh just catch the kick". But it takes about 15 minutes to teach the basics of minimizing the impact and catching a kick. Then it takes a good while actually using the technique against people really trying to hit you before you can do it reliably. Maybe about 3 months.

I recently taught my friend this technique over drinks. He has no martial arts background at all. He started training bjj with me about 2 days prior to this lesson. A TKD friend of his wanted to 'spar' with him after a few beers. The guy executed a round kick, he stepped inside like I taught him, caught the leg, executed the torque and swept the standing foot, just like I taught him. Then he held the guy down with the 1 pin he had been taught until he gave up.

That was 3 days of martial arts training vs a retired black belt in TKD.

*Edit* - This is not a comment on the effectiveness of bjj. This is a comment on how simple movements can be taught very quickly and employed almost immediately when trained properly.

Last edited by DonMagee : 09-11-2008 at 11:27 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:04 PM   #94
Mark Stokmans
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
"Unwise", how? Are you going to come to my house and piss on my lawn? Jeez, how do people make statements like this and claim they're making them "with all due respect"?
Wow, I really didn't see that one coming. I had no idea (let alone intention) of insulting you. I do apologize sincerely if I did. I was only expressing an opinion based on my own experiance in what some people like to call "the street" and my knowlegde of competitive fighting sports were kicks are done well and used very effectively. I must add though that I do think your reaction is a bit over the top. I can actually respect your opinion but disagree with it and state that it is not a wise decision to hold that opinion. Maybe its different in the States, but in Holland it is possible to respect somebody even though you disagree with him or her.

Quote:
All I said was that the justification for training against kicks shouldn't rest on the likelihood of encountering an effective kick in a self-defense situation.
This makes much more sense to me. And I'm pretty sure I said as much (perhaps the fact that English is not my first language is impeeding me in making myself understood) in earlier posts. I quote myzelf here:

Quote:
the fact that street bullies kick or not is not actually the issue.
Yes, so my point was exactly what you write in your last post. It is not "streetwise-iness" that is important to me. Not at all: actually you were the one that brought that one up if I remember correctly:
Quote:
Why would you spend time training against a type of attack that you're very unlikely to encounter except as an incompetent and ineffective execution? Oh, I've seen plenty of people try to use them in a fight; hey, they've seen the chop sockey flicks too, they know that when you get in a fight you're supposed to kick. In reality, though, what you'll see is something like this.
Please, honestly correct me if I'm wrong: but what I read is that you would dismiss the notion of training in keri-waza because the chance you will encounter it in a "fight" is not big. Is that what you meant to say?

Because if it is, it seems to be contradicting the last statement,....

Anyway: to be terribly clear: Keri-waza should be a part of Aikido for many reasons; the relevant one in this discussion is that it is just as valid as an attack (both in training context as in competition as in street fighting) or perhaps more so than shomen-uchi, yokomen-uchi or any other attack we practice in aikido. My goal for Keri-waza is not to render Aikido more effective against anything or anyone, but just to make it more complete

As for catching the leg, I completely agree with Don and Demetrio. An often used argument to dismiss kicks is to say that you will be able to deal with them based on your experience with tsuki or yokomen. That experience will help but is not enough. You need to train. And as I said in an earlier post trapping or catching a leg should never be your goal; it can be a result of good timing and good taisabaki. But then you need to know what to do with the leg. All of these elements you need to train at.

Once again, thanks you all. If I do, in anyway offend anyone please be assured it is ineptitude rather than intent.

Mark

Last edited by Mark Stokmans : 09-11-2008 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:54 PM   #95
Richard Sanchez
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Re: Aikido and kicks

I've just caught up with this thread. As someone who has had an extensive background in the 'striking' arts before, (and since), taking up Aikido 27-years ago I always taught my students how to deliver effective kicks and punches, elbow strikes etc, from day one. It did not compromise their aikido and as our classes were 3-hour, 5 days a week, we had plenty of time to cover the 'normal' Aikido curriculum. We split classes into three sections, Taijitsu, Bukiwaza and freestyle randori which allowed All contact strikes plus the usual yokomen, shomen and grabs etc.

My personal opinion is that it has much to do with the teacher's experience and competence in teaching their students how to kick and punch. Several of my peers also have teaching backgrounds in other arts such as Shaolin, Karate and TKD and we all agree that integrating attacks not normally found in Aikido is quite natural and to be expected - if you have the background and the level of competency required to teach them safely.

We rarely had injuries as students were very comfortable with both delivering and receiving kicks because it was familiar to them . As to whether people consider kicks to be in the realm of Aikido- I guess that's another thread. But for me - anything goes.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:43 PM   #96
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Talking Re: Aikido and kicks

Interesting subject. At a seminar I attended a few years ago, one of the direct students of O Sensei strongly suggested that those students who had not learned a different martial art in the past, explore the more combat oriented systems. To broaden their skills in order to enhance their ability in a real life self defense circumstance. He demonstrated how his knowledge of other systems blended with Aikido to respond to actual self defense situations he encountered as a young man. Made sense.
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:56 PM   #97
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

On more serious note:

Push kick / teep is frustrating to the opponent

Round house / Mawashi Geri is scary to the opponent

Front Kick / Mae Geri is devastating to the opponent especially if one is wearing heavy foot wear (eg: Caterpillar [tm] Brand Boots) .

Jumping 540 degrees spin kick is LOL .

Boon.

Last edited by xuzen : 09-11-2008 at 11:59 PM.

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Old 09-12-2008, 12:23 AM   #98
Richard Sanchez
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Re: Aikido and kicks

On an even more serious note I have found the low kicks from Wing Chun to be most effective with and against Aikido- with or without footwear.
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Old 09-12-2008, 03:06 AM   #99
Mark Stokmans
Dojo: Utrecht
Location: Driebergen
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25
Netherlands
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Yesterday I taught a class to a number of aikidoka with on average experiance of 5 years in aikido. I spent 15 hours on keri-waza, covering all three forms we defined in the course of our research (te waza, ashi waza and ashi-dori) for both Mae geri and Mawashi geri attacks. There were about three guys with kicking experiance. Two had had taken ukemi for me on a number of occassion and a TKD guy. The rest didn;t have that much experience.

Nevertheless we were able to train in a very constructive way. Sure, with some of the students kicks were less then perfect, but they picked p on a lot of thing quite quickly and the energy in the class was intense but wonderfully aiki. Moreover there was no injury whatsoever even though we did leg catches, and throws where breakfalls were necessary. I did a lot of stuff in that one and half hour class, really pushing them, seeing how far they could follow and at the end of the class everybody was still right there.

Obviously this is just one man's opinion but Keri-waza is aikido, there is no doubt in my mind. All you have to do is think about how you want to reach your students. Be thorough: think about the warming-up and stretching exerices, think about kicking practice (look at other MA's (like Richard Sanchez suggests) and learn from them), make your choices and figure out how you can help students by linking the Keri-waza techniques to what they already know.

Mark
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Old 09-12-2008, 06:23 AM   #100
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
John Terry wrote: View Post
Interesting subject. At a seminar I attended a few years ago, one of the direct students of O Sensei strongly suggested that those students who had not learned a different martial art in the past, explore the more combat oriented systems.
Good man. What was his name?
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