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Old 12-02-2005, 02:59 PM   #26
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: Aikido and kicks

The Ninja Turtles use kicks...
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:07 PM   #27
bratzo_barrena
Dojo: Aikido Goshin Dojo
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Hey Mike,
yes I didn't get that, i understood he left for good (sorry English isn't my nativa language), So I apology for that.
But anyway, the general idea of my coment is still valid. That a person (any other person, ok, not your friend) refuses to learn Aikido because is afraid of getting an injury (that can hapen from any technique, not just from kicks) is not a good argument. As I stated in the begining of the thread.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL
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Old 12-02-2005, 04:52 PM   #28
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Justin Thomas wrote:
i kinda follow you but dont get the bit where you brush aside a front snap kick ? a maegeri fully deployed wouldnt be brushed aside with ease, or i could missing something here
Sorry, I neglected to mention moving to the side while doing this. Sensei didn't want us to block the kick, and he insisted on our touch being feather light so we didn't immediately lift the leg too high before doing technique.

We kind of scooped it, a little...

AFTER getting the heck outta the way!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 12-02-2005, 06:56 PM   #29
MaryKaye
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Re: Aikido and kicks

I saw some very beautiful aikido against roundhouse kicks the other day. Tremendously graceful on both uke's and nage's part.

On the other hand, I have a teenaged training partner who likes to kick my shins and step on my feet, and I've found it very difficult to do anything aikido-like with those attacks. The recent "Mirror" article suggested atemi to make him keep further away, and indeed, that's the only thing that has worked so far.

In our dojo, keri waza are on the first kyu test, but the candidate is almost forced to "steal" them as they are taught so seldom. I think I have done keri waza three times in three years' training. And I remember a test a few years back where we heard uke hissing between his teeth "Throw me already! I can't keep my leg up here any longer!"

Mary Kaye
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Old 12-02-2005, 07:24 PM   #30
Derek Gaudet
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Here's my take on things. While the probability may be slim in being attack by a skilled kicker, it still exist. The probability of falling down is much higher then being attacked, does that mean give little thought to technique and emphasize ukemi? I say if the chance is there don't take a chance. I believe that keri goshin waza is important, because the fact is that some people kick, and some people are very skilled at it.
My opinion in training against kicks is this... Train against the skilled, and if they aren't skilled then it would benefit them to learn how to basically kick. Understanding an attack and how it works will improve greatly the ability to understand why and how a technique against it will work. Training against a sloppy kick or punch gets us nowhere in a martial art except giving us a false belief that we can defend ourselves against a real punch/kick. Sure it may take time to teach people to strike, but I believe in order to have a proper defense it must be practiced with a proper attack.
In my experience there are two types of people that will kick at you: 1. someone who watches way to many kung fu movies or, 2. more likely they know exactly what they are doing, and that makes it a very dangerous game. Sure ukemi is harder from these things, but in my opinion it's not a convincing argument. It's like a lot of BJJ getting rid of knee bars because they are hard on the knees, if your legitimately defending yourself it's not your knees you have to worry about, and it might just be the thing to get you out of a sticky situation, just practice in a safe manor.
Generally with a kick I believe the most important part in defense is cutting it off before the kick is at it's full potential. Every strike has an explosion point, cut it off before that point or make it go beyond that point and it becomes easier to deal with. An example that I like is against those fancy TKD spin kicks (Which I have done before), believe it or not some people will actually use these. But to defend against them you just wait for them to start the spin enter in on them as their back is turn and they fall over, vola, and all you did was walk towards them. Well that's my 2cents, might differ, but that's the world of Aikido for ya .

Kind Regards,
Derek Gaudet
Goshin Aikido
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:14 PM   #31
Devon Natario
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

In Bushenkai Aikido we trained to defend against kicks. In my honest opinion they weren't the best defenses to a kick, but they were the Aiki way of defending from a kick (Blending and moving).

I personally feel that self-defense is the most important aspect of martial arts, but that's why I study, and not everyone has to agree with that. Everyone finds there own reason to study.

I personally think grabbing a kick, checking (lifting a leg to block the kick), or stuffing (stomping their kick, before they kick) are best ways in that order to defend from kicks. I am sure everyone that trains in the defense has their own way of defending from them though and it works for them.

I would hope that Aikidoka train to defend kicks, punches, and groundfighting, but Im sure not all do.

Devon Natario
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:20 PM   #32
Leon Aman
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
Why most Aikido dojos don't train techniques against kicks?
There are two common answers that people get. and both are very stupid

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, Florida

I'm not trying to baffle my mind why aikido teaches nothing against kicking, maybe there are some subjective reasons behind it,,,,I just took up other martial arts to study those techniques that aikido doesnt have, instead.
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Old 12-02-2005, 11:46 PM   #33
ad_adrian
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

in yoshinkan we hav trained against kicks before
the reason why u dont need to train against kicks is higer up when u have started to get a grasp of tru aikido u do not need to practice against them ur aikido will come naturally ur blocking willb e up to par and u'll be able to easily block it and irimi nage the attacker there r many and many of attacks u can use its not different from punching once u know what ur doing
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Old 12-04-2005, 07:16 AM   #34
Mat Hill
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Most aikido dojo don't train kicks very often because the sensei can't kick for toffee, and nor can most of the students! I'm not saying this is a good excuse - I'm with Bratzo, that since most aikido people can't punch their way through wet toilet paper either it doesn't mean we shouldn't train against punches.

I'm not saying this is inherently bad either: I'd rather follow Leon's suggestion of training in another art to deal with kicks than to risk inculcating a false sense of security by training against very very bad kicks!

But to the people who say, aiki against a kick is just the same as aiki against any other attack, these words are actually meaningless unless you practice against kicks! The ingredients of aiki include maai, evasive and entering footwork etc, but what on earth makes you think you'll automatically have these things against a kick when it takes years of hard training to become halfway decent at these things against punches which we practice a lot, and sticks which we practice a lot etc...?!

This attitude is prevalent with people who say things like, just cut the kick, by stepping in and using kuzushi against the kick... essentially a stop kick. Well, again, you're talking about a series of complicated actions and reactions even if you've got to the stage where your movement-base in aiki is reflex (which you probably haven't - I haven't most of the time after 15 years!), and even if you're talking about the nen-before-nen (initiating the attack!), you still need to recognize the signs of the unborn kick from the kicker.

The kicker will likely have practiced the kick thousands of times (maybe not so many if they are 'just' a 'street thug' whatever that is but...!), and even if you've practiced your moves against non-kickers thousands of times, the kick is ultimately a lot simpler than most aiki waza! Plus they'll have practiced it, and setting it up against people trying to stop them... whereas you'll have practiced in harmony with your nice sempai who's not really trying to take your pretty little head off.

And have you ever tried stop-kicking a stop-kicker??!! I have many times; in Thai format in my shooto dojo, in wing chun kungfu and in free sparring... it'll really mess with your warrior-philosopher Zen nen trickery I can tell you!

Sorry for going on again... I'm not trying to come across as a know-it-all so sorry if I cause anyone any offence; but I really don't understand or believe how people can maintain things like 'you don't need to train against these things when you know what you're doing'... when quite frankly you'll never know what you're doing if you don't train against these things! It's a perfect example of a circular argument!
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Old 12-04-2005, 02:34 PM   #35
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Just to clarify,
Most ukes don't know how to properly kick is not excuse for not training against kicks (as most ukes maybe don't know how to properly puch is not excuse for not raining against punches) But that doesn't mean that it's also a good idea to train how to properly kick and punch to make practice more productive. Obviously it will help undestand more how a kicks work and how to counter them.
Just another thing, I also think is a mith most aikidokas don't know how to kick or puch, actually a lot of them come from other martial arts with a lot of training in kicks and punches, even grappling and so.
So actually in an Aikido there are those who do know how to punch/kick/grapp, etc and those who don't.
As we we usually change partners frecuently during one class, one should have the opportunity to train with those who know how to attack, and those who don't know; which in itslef its a great exprience and helps you train with people of very diffrents skills.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshing Dojo
Doral, FL
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Old 12-04-2005, 08:26 PM   #36
Mat Hill
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
Just to clarify,
Most ukes don't know how to properly kick is not excuse for not training against kicks (as most ukes maybe don't know how to properly puch is not excuse for not raining against punches) But that doesn't mean that it's also a good idea to train how to properly kick and punch to make practice more productive.
I think it's a good idea to spend a little time on how to kick and punch in every aikido class. This should be graded up with your grade so by the time you reach ikkyuu/shoudan you should be working on and against combinations of one-twos and one-two-threes.

Quote:
Just another thing, I also think is a mith most aikidokas don't know how to kick or puch, actually a lot of them come from other martial arts with a lot of training in kicks and punches, even grappling and so.
So actually in an Aikido there are those who do know how to punch/kick/grapp, etc and those who don't.
That's true, but I've known many very good punchers and kickers from other background who fall into the 'just oooonnnne huge long gyaku-tsuki aaaannnnd heeeeeere it coooooooomes' trap as soon as they step on the mat, into the aiki box! How many good strikers have you seen on an aiki mat coming in with say, a good well-balanced tight boxing jab? With me I can count them with the fingers of no hands!
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:06 AM   #37
justinc
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
How many good strikers have you seen on an aiki mat coming in with say, a good well-balanced tight boxing jab?
Quite a few in our school. Multiple martial arts are taught and many of the students train in more than one art. In aikido class we generally don't practice much against kicking, but in randori, kicks are seen on a somewhat regular basis. Real strikes too as those that cross train either have Hapkido or TKD training as well.

As for your boxing jab; they're mostly ignorable. There's no energy to directly work with unless you go for catching the return side of the jab then shihonage or some form of hip or shoulder throw is realttively easy. If you're not looking for that, then there's no forward projection of nage's centre with a jab, which leaves you little to work with, but also means that the strike isn't going to hit you either. If you've let them get into the range where a jab would hit you, you've lost you ma'ai so something else needs to be worked on prior to this point. Now, a haymaker or other big circular punch, is another story, but the basic jab or upper cut-style punch are not going to give you much to work with, but also don't cause you to have to react, assuming the rest of your aiki prinicples are maintained.

Justin Couch
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Old 12-05-2005, 04:00 AM   #38
Mat Hill
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Justin Couch wrote:
Quite a few in our school...
Congratulations. You're in the minority.

Quote:
In aikido class we generally don't practice much against kicking, but in randori, kicks are seen on a somewhat regular basis.
So any idea why they're not practised in class especially as there seems to be a lot of cross fertilisation not to say interest in your school? And how do people fare against them in randori? My guess is they're stepping in with a big 'here it comes' and a single kick right?

Quote:
As for your boxing jab; they're mostly ignorable. There's no energy to directly work with unless you go for catching the return side of the jab then shihonage or some form of hip or shoulder throw is realttively easy. If you're not looking for that, then there's no forward projection of nage's centre with a jab, which leaves you little to work with, but also means that the strike isn't going to hit you either. If you've let them get into the range where a jab would hit you, you've lost you ma'ai so something else needs to be worked on prior to this point...
Firstly I chose the jab as a quick example. The thread is already about kicking! But since nobody's really saying much at the moment about kicking and you've responded about the jab, and the jab has some things in common with kicking in terms of liveness of application in aiki, let's look at you answer a bit more.

1) Maai means distance. Especially the distance of engagement. You never lose your maai, there is always a distance of engagement... maybe you mean you've lost the ideal aiki maai?

Anyway, this idea is also not very realistic. Maai should not dictate to you, nor should you only have one distance you can work from. You've already mentioned a shoulder throw (whatever that may be) and shihonage which works from a close distance, so you've already mentioned a distance which is perfectly within jabbing range.

2) You seem to be mystifying the concept of 'centre'. When the guy steps in to your ideal maai to close the distance you're trying to keep him at so he has a good range for a jab, his centre moves with him! It's part of his body. As for 'there's no forward projection of nage's centre' I take it you mean he is on posture? As in not overextended? Well, working with people from other arts (and practising them yourself) you shoudl know that mostly attackers don't overextend, and it's part of aiki to cause them to do so.

As a natural move, most attacks will withdraw the limb, and as you said, assuming they didn't nail you in first place you could then choose to blend with their withdrawal... but you would need to be proactive, and in that case, you may as well use preemptive timing; ie, atemi first... as you need to provoke some response. If you allow him to dictate timing you are losing another vital part of aiki awase.

3) Shihonage against a jab is frankly asking to get hit again. The jab's withdrawal is much faster than your whole body moving in and it will withdraw to a place where the hand is by the head and the elbow is just outside the shoulder and one of the most difficult positions to lead into shihonage, unless you're going to use brute force, and then: good luck.

These things should be kept in mind when practising against kicks or any other 'real' attacks too.

I've put my suggestions which I think are applicable to most real attacks including jabs and kicks in bold (hope it's not too obnoxious!):

maai is never lost and it is necessary for you to create the maai you will work from rather than let it be dictated to you; and then you can use your maai to provide fine tuning to getting your uke into overprojection which is often a subtle balance-reading move and not a huge swipe visible from a mile away; unless you preempt or lead effectively (which needs more than just 'backing away to regain your ideal maai' against a short-range attacker or a long range kicker who will both just chase you down faster than you can backpedal/wheel away) you will not be able to move your body faster than the strike or it's withdrawal.
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:18 PM   #39
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Aikido and kicks

So many kinds of kicks....
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:40 AM   #40
justinc
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Mat, lots of good questions, hopefully I answer all here. Firstly, why not much kicking done in general Aikido practice, well it would just then be Hapkido training. We do try to keep the arts somewhat separated in the way they go about training. For those of us that cross train, we mostly do so because the Aikido side offers a lot more work on the non-striking aspects of the art. To some extent we deliberately defocus any striking work so that we can spend more time on those other aspects - such as the basic blending and entering.

As for Ma'ai. Our definitions differ markedly. ma'ai to us is a specific distance range that is approximately mid range - between kicking and grappling range. The basic distance where if uke wants to strike you, they have to move to do so. Which leads to my next point.

Have you worked with a boxer before? A jab certainly does not move one's center. It's a short-sharp punch designed to set a person up for the real punch. Take a look at professional boxing some time and see when the center moves and with which punches. The good old haymaker or upper cut uses a lot of torso movement and to make them connect the whole body ends up moving, thus giving you a nice set of conditions to work with. A jab does none of these - it's almost all arm and shoulder only and doesn't, typically, fully extend the arm. I have no concept of what you're trying to express about center. But, a jab certainly does not move the attacker's center, in any way, shape or form, unlike the other circular punches. If their center is not moving, you have to make it move, which makes dealing with the attack a level of difficulty higher. (this is different to jabs as the person happens to be walking forward or doing the duck & weave). Someone standing there throwing just jabs at you is making no attempt to get closer to you, and for the best part can be ignored until the do something that either moves their center or over extends an arm.

As for catching and shihonage, that's actually one of the best techniques to use. As the strike goes out, you reach around the outside and behind the punch. As their arm withdraws, the catch pulls you in towards them and you're already in the process of turning away into a classic shihonage position. You're entirely using their energy of the withdraw action of the punch to move you into that position and execute the throw. That's what makes it work so well. They think you're trying to do something, so they naturally withdraw the arm even faster, giving you more energy to work with. Note that you don't try to catch the punch, but rather reach behind it and as it comes back it connects with your hand which then moves you.

As for your last statement. I strongly disagree. We do a lot of training in this sort of work in our Hapkido classes. There's a simple set of exercises you can do. put your hands in front of you up at chest level in something lie a fighting stance. Have someone throw fast punches at you and try to knock the hand away or grab the punch. It's impossible. Now, with the same exercise, reach out to place your wrist behind the punch, almost like you're try to slap the person in the face. You'll get this nine times out of ten and end up with a very solid connection to work with.

Justin Couch
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:54 AM   #41
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Justin Couch wrote:
As for catching and shihonage, that's actually one of the best techniques to use. As the strike goes out, you reach around the outside and behind the punch. As their arm withdraws, the catch pulls you in towards them and you're already in the process of turning away into a classic shihonage position. You're entirely using their energy of the withdraw action of the punch to move you into that position and execute the throw. That's what makes it work so well. They think you're trying to do something, so they naturally withdraw the arm even faster, giving you more energy to work with. Note that you don't try to catch the punch, but rather reach behind it and as it comes back it connects with your hand which then moves you.
Kancho Shioda defeated an American GI boxer with shihonage. The detail is available in his book Aikido Shugyo. Personally I doubt he did shihonage as shown in our dojo, he probably did shihonage the jujutsu method.

Boon.

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Old 12-06-2005, 06:18 AM   #42
Mat Hill
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I'll try again!

Quote:
Justin Couch wrote:
Firstly, why not much kicking done in general Aikido practice, well it would just then be Hapkido training. We do try to keep the arts somewhat separated in the way they go about training. For those of us that cross train, we mostly do so because the Aikido side offers a lot more work on the non-striking aspects of the art. To some extent we deliberately defocus any striking work so that we can spend more time on those other aspects - such as the basic blending and entering.
Fine. The initial problem on the thread and the one to which Bratzo and I have been responding was about how much kicking you practise in your aiki... not your hapkido. You said you practised a little but people seemed to do it 'somewhat regularly' in randori. So I asked why it was that there was a discrepancy in the number of people who seemed to want to practise kicking in randori over the amount of time spent on kicking in the body of the technical class. Which you didn't answer, choosing instead to tell me that you liked to keep the arts separate and do not focus (I assume that's what you mean by 'defocus'!) on striking in aikido.

In case the question was too plain to understand: why is it people are practising kicks in randori but nobody practises in the technical body of the class?

And here's another question: how much time do you spend practising 'basic blending', how does your dojo practise 'basic blending' (just some exercise names will do here if you don't have time to go into detail) and how do you think 'basic blending' differs or is more important than eg, blending against a kick?

And here's a hint. I'm not being antagonistic, I'm genuinely interested, but I'm also not asking these questions because there is a large gap in my knowledge that I am seeking for you to fill: I'm asking these questions because I strongly suspect that you are arguing for the sake of it and your arguments are couched in vague inaccurate English!

I'm not testing you as I said, I'm genuinely interested in your point of view, in the interests of reaching consensus. I notice you took issue with my example of a boxing jab without actually really saying anything about kicking, so I'm also wondering rather about your position of authority whereby you've obviously trained with boxers.

Quote:
As for Ma'ai. Our definitions differ markedly. ma'ai to us is a specific distance range that is approximately mid range - between kicking and grappling range. The basic distance where if uke wants to strike you, they have to move to do so.
OK. You are using a quite commonly accepted definition of maai, meaning the ideal distance in which to engage uke. I have already pointed out that this distance varies according to the attack and the technique, and anyway you should be able to dictate maai and work from different maai when this is not possible.

I then stated that I do not believe this definition of maai to be realistic or useful.

I am using the definition of the word maai. Not a definition which is commonly and I think rather dangerously accepted at face value by many members of the aikido community: ie, your notional definition of some kind of ideal distance to work from. It is an ideal which works nicely in the dojo for beginners, but should probably be worked out of as soon as the beginner has a reasonable grasp of this concept.

My definition is somewhat literal, being from a dictionary, and being used by every Japanese martial arts sensei I've met here in this way: 間合い interval (between), distance (between), timing. If I look in the Japanese dictionary it says (my translation): 間合:何かをするのに適当な距離や時機。(The appropriate distance or opportunity in order to do something):剣道などで、相手との距離。(In kendo etc, the distance between opponents). The first part of this definition supports your notion of an ideal; I am sticking to my idea that ideals are just that, and rarely practical, in that ideals and 'appropriateness' are always opinion-based and not necessarily a good basis for reaching consensus on what should be perfectly scientifically explicable physical aspects of a martial art. So I'm going to stick with the kendo-based definition in the second part, which, as I said is the only way I've heard it used in many many dojos over here.

The definition: 'a specific distance range that is approximately mid range' is wrong. Well, maybe not wrong, but it's made up! Maybe it was made up by a Japanese sensei who was trying explain things simply for foreigners who were trying to mystify the concept, or maybe because it sounds good to have a 'one size fits all' maai. One size does not fit all!

The following illustrates perfectly another commonly held semantic misconception, which I've found all over the martial arts world: 'between kicking and grappling range'.

1) What is aikido? It's a grappling art. Again, if you want to be picky you can say, "It's throws and locks and pins," but basically that means grappling (look 'grapplin' up somewhere if you don't believe me!). So...

2) What is 'grappling range'? Well, my kotegaeshi goes from an outside kotegaeshi with a tenkan which covers the distance from one of each of mine and uke's hands being crossed to about two metres away where uke lands to a short entering kotegaeshi where I bend uke's wrist back into himself and hopefully he hits the floor before his wrist breaks or my elbow smashes into his nose and rakes down to take a rather late and difficult to breakfall from kuzushi into his solar plexus (I'm not a bad man! I'm just trying to explain just how close a close kotegaeshi gets if you keep your structure - a very close maai.) So that's one technique.

You could say the starting range has to be the same, but I can pull off the elbow smashing kotegaeshi from a retracting jab whereas the other needs some kind of lead or overextended strike in the first place.

3) What is 'kicking range'? I've sparred a hung gar champion in the UK who could close range with one of those movie flying kicks from a good 2.5 m. My shooto teacher and my old karate sempai can pull off devastingly quick head-height roundhouses from the length of my forearm away.

Quote:
Have you worked with a boxer before?
Every day. Look to where it says my dojo if you can't make it as far as my profile. My primary art is aikido. Altogether I have worked in an aiki framework in some way or another for 15 years. My secondary art is wing chun kung fu. For the last two years or so I've also been training shooto. In case you don't know, this is a combination of boxing for handwork, Thai for footwork, B/JJJ, American collegiate and Graeco-Roman wrestling for groundwork and takedowns. Plus I get a lot of opportunity to pressure-test my aiki principles and wing chun.

So yes, I work with a boxer every day, albeit not a very good one: me! And when I have time I work with other boxers and kickboxers three times a week. You?

I chose a jab as my example because I can do it very well, and have put people on their backsides with this simple technique alone.

OK, line by line :
Quote:
A jab certainly does not move one's center.
You were talking about your ideal maai being the distance when someone has to move to hit you. Clue: when somebody moves their centre moves with them. Your centre is part of your body, usually you can find it around... your centre! If they have to move to hit you, they are moving their centre, albeit surrounded by the rest of their body!

Notice I didn't say a jab moves your centre, I said that when someone moves in to jab you, they will move their centre.

Quote:
It's a short-sharp punch designed to set a person up for the real punch.
Not so. As I said, I myself have put people down with a jab and have seen pros do so too. Bear this in mind: the jab is an antenna, it's a feeler so I always put the pressure on you and I always know exactly where you are (and where your centre is). If you do not move, I can change my jab to make it a bit harder right at the end of my reach. Technically, you could call it a straight left at that point, but to me it's the same.

Again, the timing and distance of the jab can make all the difference between it being a dainty little number that'll just rock your head back on your scrawny little neck (please don't take this personally, I'm using the generic 'your'!), or a monster that'll get under your nose or between your eyes and'll have you waking up blowing snot bubbles in a couple of minutes' time.

Quote:
Take a look at professional boxing some time and see when the center moves and with which punches.
Take a look at your condescension sometime. This grandma isn't so bad at sucking eggs... and I suck at a few other things too!

The centre of a boxer moves every time he punches. Are you getting that point yet? Even if it's what we call a small circle or a spiral in Chinese MA or JJJ, the power generation from the hips is rolling the centre like a ball-bearing.

And that's assuming the boxer doesn't have to move to the target, which as you pointed out later is pretty rare.

Quote:
The good old haymaker or upper cut uses a lot of torso movement and to make them connect the whole body ends up moving, thus giving you a nice set of conditions to work with.
As I've said, the whole body will move if the striker has to move in to hit you; you said the same thing about your ideal maai. So what's your point here?
Quote:
A jab does none of these - it's almost all arm and shoulder only and doesn't, typically, fully extend the arm.
This is nonsense I'm afraid. No boxing strike is 'almost all arm and shoulder'.

A good boxer connects from the feet through the knees (my shooto instructor is always shouting at us to bend the knees, just as my aiki instructor, and my kendo instructor etc etc) through the hips and out through their fully extended arm with most strikes. In terms of body connection most boxers and kick boxers can demonstrate in one or two punches what most aiki people I've met only talk about a lot!

Quote:
I have no concept of what you're trying to express about center.
Sad, but true! Keep reading... the lines, the lines! Not between them!

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But, a jab certainly does not move the attacker's center, in any way, shape or form, unlike the other circular punches.
No punches 'move the attacker's centre'! Not the jab, not 'the other circular punches' whatever they are!

Again, I guess you are talking about overextension or offbalancing here by the expression 'moving the centre'...? Your centre is always moving! But the attacker is only overbalanced/overextended if they miss or make some mistake. And that is where the following comes in...
Quote:
If their center is not moving, you have to make it move, which makes dealing with the attack a level of difficulty higher.
...by which I take it you mean, 'If they are not overbalanced/overextended, you have to make them so...'? Which I agree with.

Again, like with the maai case, you are using some jargonish definition of 'centre' which is mystifying a simple physical concept; that of centre of balance. I'm a newbie to this board, so if there is a thread somewhere with a discussion of either maai or centre which looks at people's definitions of them and finally decides universally that the aiki community here has redefined either of these simple points please point me in the right direction so I can learn the language you are using!

Oops, sorry - that was being facetious! I'll stick with the simple definitions thanks! So, do you still not understand what I mean by 'centre' and how it relates to a moving body?!

So yes, we are finally agreed that if someone is on posture and not overextended you will have to move to extend them and this is difficult.

Quote:
(this is different to jabs as the person happens to be walking forward
Uh-oh, the honeymoon period is over! If a person is 'walking forwards' 'throwing just jabs at you' this is NOT different! They will still not be overextended!
Quote:
or doing the duck & weave).
And what the hell is that - a dance?! Still, I don't get your point if you had one: they will STILL be not overextended!
Quote:
Someone standing there throwing just jabs at you is making no attempt to get closer to you, and for the best part can be ignored until the do something that either moves their center or over extends an arm.
Why would someone just be standing there throwing just jabs at you ?! They would be moving in to your nice safe ideal maai, not overextended in anyway, with a strong posture, trying to throw a jab into your poorly protected face! Which you cannot ignore! So as you say, that constitutes them moving their centre... into your space... and you will have to act to increase the maai to overextend them. That was precisely my point.

So, in the end, you cannot ignore jabs, anymore than you should be ignoring kicks in the dojo!

Your next supposition just backs up my presumption that you have not worked with anybody any good at jabbing. If you have someone giving a half-hearted jab because he doesn't want to knock your block off, you might be able to catch him out with a shihonage, but in a 'normal' situation it would have a very low (negligible) percentage of succeeding.

Quote:
As for your last statement. I strongly disagree.
What with?! My saying that you can't move your whole body faster than your attacker can move their hand? Your description of the hapkido exercise sounds interesting but doesn't seem to disagree in any way with what I've said...

It sounds like a good exercise. Could you describe it a bit more clearly please?

Th-th-that's all folks! My final point, which is strangely the same as my first point, is that if you don't train against good full-speed mean nasty kicks you'll have the same problems as with Justin here with the jabs... a bunch of misconceptions from vague terminology and half-hearted attacks.

Many aikidoists say a lot of stupid things about kickers' balance; 'just step in - he'll fall over', 'just catch his leg - he'll fall over' etc. Kickers have good balance. They practise the simple move of a kick as many times as you practise your complicated series of moves that make up an aiki technique. You have to make them overextend and you can't do this unless you practise with them, preferably with them going full speed having set up their kick with some combination and following up with some other combination...
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Old 12-06-2005, 06:22 AM   #43
Mat Hill
Dojo: Kaminari Shooto Dojo
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Thumbs down Kancho Shioda was good!

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Kancho Shioda defeated an American GI boxer with shihonage. The detail is available in his book Aikido Shugyo. Personally I doubt he did shihonage as shown in our dojo, he probably did shihonage the jujutsu method.

Boon.
Nice, I'll have to read that. Wonder what level the 'GI boxer' was...

I would guess that he wasn't catching jab but preempting with atemi or by moving in and offline before the boxer's attack was initiated or during an 'off-beat' in the boxer's attack.

Perhaps if you have more detail that's relevant to this thread you could include it, or start a new thread/PM me.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:04 AM   #44
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
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Re: Aikido and kicks

If I remember Aikido Shugyo correctly Shioda watched as a a pair of his students first got a beating by the boxer. Watching the boxer he understood that it would be very hard to catch the jab and instead did an irimi-movement to the inside as the boxer jabbed and took the boxers other hand and applied shihonage.
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:40 AM   #45
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido and kicks

That would be correct except it was only one of his students the boxer took out. Good story, and supports one of my teacher's ideas of often looking to do waza off of the back hand. Often works well when the lead hand is jabbing, and the power punch comes from the back hand.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:47 AM   #46
happysod
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
often looking to do waza off of the back hand
one of the few times when someone who punches sloppily and doesn't guard their head has an advantage - don't you just hate hunting for the other hand from those "attackers" who leave them flapping in the breeze?
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:57 AM   #47
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
one of the few times when someone who punches sloppily and doesn't guard their head has an advantage - don't you just hate hunting for the other hand from those "attackers" who leave them flapping in the breeze?
Smack 'em a couple times. They'll get it.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 12-06-2005, 11:30 AM   #48
happysod
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Hey, I'm a fruity (or is that fruitie?), we're not allowed to use such physical means (shudders delicately), hasn't aikiweb taught you anything yet?
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Old 12-06-2005, 11:55 AM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido and kicks

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
one of the few times when someone who punches sloppily and doesn't guard their head has an advantage - don't you just hate hunting for the other hand from those "attackers" who leave them flapping in the breeze?
Not really after a while it just kind of falls into place. Evade into their power side using atemi or a passing block, and the hand is usually just there. Often I'll evade/enter on the jabbing side first (safer 'cause it's away from the power hand), then as they turn one way or another that determines which hand to go for. At that distance you can't really look at the hand and then grab it...too slow. You kind of have to feel it in relation to the rest of their body, make contact at the shoulder, slide down and hook or grab briefly, off-balance and throw quickly.

You can even do kotegaeshi without grabbing in some circumstances, just hook with the ridge made between your wrist and your thumb if you spread your fingers widely. Because you're not grabbing people often don't have a clue as to how exactly you threw them. The problem with this particular version is you can't really take time to atemi, because you can't really base the hand you're hooking without grabbing. It's just movement, hook, movement throw...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:25 PM   #50
justinc
Dojo: Enso Center, Redmond
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
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Re: I'll try again!

Quote:
Mat Hill wrote:
In case the question was too plain to understand: why is it people are practising kicks in randori but nobody practises in the technical body of the class?
Because we don't practice kicking in randori either. Nage still uses aikido techniques, but the attackers can and do throw in kicks to the mix. That's the difference between the two arts as we practice them. In free practice in Hapkido, both sides use kicking and striking, in aikido, only the attackers do. Those of us that are more proficient in kicking will throw in pretty much everything as the attacker- ground and jumping spinning kicks etc. We don't just leave it as a basic front, round and side kicks.


Quote:
And here's another question: how much time do you spend practising 'basic blending', how does your dojo practise 'basic blending' (just some exercise names will do here if you don't have time to go into detail) and how do you think 'basic blending' differs or is more important than eg, blending against a kick?
Now you're just being silly by picking on words rather than understanding meaning. We're talking about exercises that are not striking practice. There's no standing in horse stance doing 500 punches in our aikido practice.

Quote:
I'm asking these questions because I strongly suspect that you are arguing for the sake of it and your arguments are couched in vague inaccurate English!
This board is not like that at all. English is vague and inaccurate by definition! (if only english was logical and straight forward, just like programming!) Everyone here shares their point of view in non antagonistic ways. Aikido is such a wide and diverse set of training methods that there are always people that have trained in a different way to what you have done. We all like to put out stuff that is along the lines of "hey, here's what we do and you should take a look at such and such for a good idea about X". There's no malice that you seem to want to project into my thoughts and expressions.

Quote:
1) What is aikido? It's a grappling art. Again, if you want to be picky you can say, "It's throws and locks and pins," but basically that means grappling (look 'grapplin' up somewhere if you don't believe me!). So...
That seems to be really stretching the definition of "grappling art" and certainly not one that I see used to describe Aikido. Close body on body contact and large amounts of ground work are the distinguishing factors for grappling arts. Aikido generally tries to stay further away from the body than that. Grappling arts in the commonly accepted terms are the various jujitsus, judo and various forms of wrestling.

Quote:
2) What is 'grappling range'?
Inside the range where effective strikes with either hand or foot can take place. Typical distance is less than a foot away when face to face. As for your friend reaching a couple of metres with kicks, yes, that's pretty normal. I'm tall (192cm) so just a standing side kick with no body movement I can cover almost 1.5m alone. Stepping or skipping in side or front kick are some of my favourite opening techniques in TKD sparring matches. I can be across the other side of the square landing a kick before my partner knows what has happened

Quote:
Why would someone just be standing there throwing just jabs at you ?!
Not spent too much time in seedy bars I see :P Not that this has anything to do with boxers, but more the "drunken boxing" bar fight scenario.

As for the rest, it seems Mat, you are just trying to be picky for the sake of it, making associations with my words that are just not there. There's no point discussing those as you are so sure that only you have the right opinion because you're reading the literal word rather than the meanings. Since this thread is about kicking, I'm ignoring the rest of the jab bits. I only commented initially on the jab bits because, like kicking, aikido people don't work with boxers much and I've had quite a bit of experience with both sides of the equation. Just wanted to add some observations there about what we do in our training for that precise scenario and that the things people think are impossible are not really. I'll sit down and shut up now.

Last edited by justinc : 12-06-2005 at 12:32 PM.

Justin Couch
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