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Old 01-07-2006, 09:30 PM   #76
Mat Hill
Dojo: Kaminari Shooto Dojo
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Confused Selective stats!

So she was injured!

The plot thinnens!

(There follows a lot of second guessing with possibly limited value but based on simple observations of various interactions in various dojo over a long time! This is not meant to imply anything about this particular woman, but merely to illustrate the wonderful diversity of the precious human snowflake... I should can that tone - I forget that people write that kind of thing seriously on the net sometimes! )

Maybe she was a just difficult customer... hence the mobile incident. Maybe she was one of those freeloaders. Maybe she uses one of those recurring mysterious 'bad back' injuries to get out of practice and cleaning up and stuff when she doesn't feel like it, and got all embarassed, not being brazen enough to lie completely about it and answer 'Yes' to the 'Are you injured?' question. She may have been caught on the hop with a guilty conscience.

Then again maybe she is genuinely injured and didn't answer yes because she is profoundly embarassed about it. This may also give her an excuse to leave her phone on when there's a high possibility of a call coming so she has an excuse to leave the mat for a breather without drawing attention to her 'weakness'. I was the assistant instructor a few times for a few sessions with a very badly disfigured and badly injured accident victim who wanted to sample aiki ... I asked her not to do anything she felt uncomfortable with, and said not to worry about feeling uncomfortable in the first place, because beginners always feel uncomfortable about things anyway. I thought I'd done everything I could: not bending over backwards which might make her feel more awkward, but not treating her quite the same as everyone else as this might have glossed over her probalem and made her think I wasn't serious enough or didn't recognise her injury as as serious as it was... giving her a tad more than the usual encouragement I give beginners, and making sure she had ample opportunity not to do the things that would cause her distress. She didn't come back after about three sessions, and furthermore, she didn't tell anyone why. I was a bit upset!

I found out later from her mentor who'd come with her, who I happened to meet, that she'd been embarassed assuming the kneeling position prior to learning a forward roll as a precursor to maeukemi because it meant she had to open her legs more than she felt comfortable as a woman. Now of course, I've had many many women on the mat and none of them have had that problem, or at least voiced it, before, so I can only gather that it was her particular quirk... and then maybe as a quirk of human nature, she wanted to be recognised as a woman, perhaps even more so since her accident, which may lead to embarassment in unsuspected places.

So, maybe your case was embarassed Nick.

...[/random speculation]

Anyway, i still think you were right in what you said. Of course, in future putting it the other way round may be better, 'We always help put the mats away after class... unless you're injured in some way?' or many of the other excellent suggestions on the board.

I've gotta laugh at the third person on this thread agreeing with 'everyone' or 'the majority'...
Quote:
Leon Aman wrote:
I agree with the majority that you are bad Nick considering that you are an assistant instructor, but you didnt consider the feeling of your guest that she is not aware of your dojos rule.
Sorry Leon, not picking on you, it's just statistical chance! You've just agreed with the majority, when if you count the number of people who said Nick was bad, and the number of people who said Nick was good, and the number of people who didn't express clearly one way or the other you may find that including yourself 13 people said Bad, 14 people have said Good, and 7 are undecided/indifferent/unclear/non-judgmental/other. Therefore, you are in and agreeing with a minority! There's nice wee example of selective observation for you!

Of course, my selective observation is deciding who is undecided/indifferent/unclear/non-judgmental/other... so in a parallel universe you may just be right!

Josh, yep, that agrees pretty much with my experience in Japan and the observation from my previous post. I find it interesting that most of the people in Japan on this thread said that Nick was bad because she should have been treated like a guest... maybe most of the gaijin are too used to being treated specially over here, even long-termers who have reached some kind of exulted status! In my experience, whether you're treated like a guest anyway, you should be the first to ask/act on putting mats away etc... then you'll find you're treated a lot more naturally: like being asked directly to put the mats away!
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:20 PM   #77
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Selective stats!

Quote:
Mat Hill wrote:
So she was injured!
Maybe she was a just difficult customer... hence the mobile incident. Maybe she was one of those freeloaders. Maybe she uses one of those recurring mysterious 'bad back' injuries to get out of practice and cleaning up and stuff when she doesn't feel like it, and got all embarassed, not being brazen enough to lie completely about it and answer 'Yes' to the 'Are you injured?' question. She may have been caught on the hop with a guilty conscience.

Then again maybe she is genuinely injured and didn't answer yes because she is profoundly embarassed about it.
Maybe she hurt her back putting the mats away.

Quote:
Josh, yep, that agrees pretty much with my experience in Japan and the observation from my previous post. I find it interesting that most of the people in Japan on this thread said that Nick was bad because she should have been treated like a guest... maybe most of the gaijin are too used to being treated specially over here, even long-termers who have reached some kind of exulted status! In my experience, whether you're treated like a guest anyway, you should be the first to ask/act on putting mats away etc... then you'll find you're treated a lot more naturally: like being asked directly to put the mats away!
Well, what, 3 or 4 people in Japan replied in this thread? Gotta be careful about sample size.

In my volleyball circle, we pay 500 yen every week to cover the gym rental. First timers are considered guests, so they don't have to pay. In terms of cleaning after practice, though, it's just kind of assumed and everyone pitches in. In Japan (as I'm sure you know Mat, but for the benefit of others), all students clean up the classroom everyday after school. This is also the case for extracurricular clubs, which everyone belongs to. So, I've never seen a case where someone, even a first timer, didn't jump in right away with the cleaning. It's like a habit. Except, as I said, at my usual dojo. But in that case, there's nothing to put away, and the tatami get professionally cleaned. Although everyone takes their garbage with them, of course.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 01-08-2006, 11:22 AM   #78
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Thanks for the replies again, Mat and Josh. Just to clarify, the girl with the mobile phone was a different person and that happened over a year ago. General dojo ettiquette is that phones are turned off, unless the person is on call or expecting a call for whatever reason, if they make this known to the instructor/s then there is no problem with this. In that case, the girl either did not know or had not listened and when her phone went off she left the mat without permission and answered it in the dojo and then came back on the mat without permission. John tried to politely explain to her why this is not the done thing. Unfortuantely as has been said, that girl didnt come back either.

Yeah, I agree that a guest should at least make an effort to pitch in with everybody else, especially if they are considering joining a dojo. I understand this may be different to the way things are done in Japan, but this is not Japan

Anyways, I just thought I'd let people know that she didnt come back. Im not really asking for anymore advice here, but feel free to continue with this thread if you wish. I have been told by my instructor, head regional instructor and the head of our organisation that I was in the right and she was expected to help out. The injury question is not really part of the issue, I was not trying to trip her up, but I have took on board what people have said regarding this and will change my tack in the future. Thanks again guys and gals

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 01-08-2006, 09:13 PM   #79
Mat Hill
Dojo: Kaminari Shooto Dojo
Location: Tokyo
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Frankenstein thread.

OK.

OK!

But sometimes they just won't die!

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Yeah, I agree that a guest should at least make an effort to pitch in with everybody else, especially if they are considering joining a dojo. I understand this may be different to the way things are done in Japan, but this is not Japan
That is precisely the way things are done over here too.

That's it from me!
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Old 03-21-2006, 09:37 AM   #80
merlynn
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Not like out of a cowboy movie. But that would be cool.

Last night at one of our dojo's my sensei was teaching (in place of that dojo's sensei).There was a new student, a lady who has previously trained elsewhere abroad and is looking to train somewhere locally now. She holds the grade of fourth kyu, I believe.

Well, anyway, when my sensei is teaching, as the assistant instructor and one of the senior students it is my duty to make sure that ettiquette is followed yada yada yada.

I noticed during the start of class that she did not put any mats out while the rest of us did so. And during the end of the class she went to do the same, I gave her a few minutes in case she was going to get something from her bag or put her shoes on or whateve then join the rest of the class. But she didnt.

So I said:

' Excuse me, Are you injured? '

As she may have some injury or problem that prevented her lifting the mats. I dont know, the last thing I want to do is offend or belittle someone. Especially prospective students.

She said 'No.'

So I replied ' Well could you please put some mats away?'

And she looked a bit shocked.

I got teased alittle by some of the other seniors and felt a bit rotten but that is the level of ettiquette my sensei expects, and it's one of my roles.

Was I over the top or whatever? Should I perhaps have let it slip with it being her first session here? Any thoughts guys an gals?
as a student of lone pine ryu we train in 2 locations one in woking and one in guildford, i first attended a monday class where people attending the dojo have to put the mats out ... so any ways i turned up for the first time on a monday to find our childrens instructor putting the mats out by himself so i immediatly offered to help him ! i didnt have to do this but as a matter of meer courtesy i did do. is it just me or am i expecting to much of people when i think its just common courtesy to help

some things are so dear and so precious you have to let them go
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Old 03-21-2006, 10:10 AM   #81
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Nick, You must be bad, mad, and sad since this thread is still alive more than a year later

For me it's a case of "mi casa es su casa" so make yourself at home and help out!

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:09 PM   #82
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Lets go to the graveyard, dig up zombies. And stuff.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:54 PM   #83
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

uh uh...no stuff. Absolutely no stuff whatsoever shall be dug up on my watch!

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:01 PM   #84
Nick Simpson
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

No zombies, no stuff. Deal!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 03-22-2006, 05:51 PM   #85
Mark Freeman
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Really Nick you are very very bad, but in a very Mr T sort of way

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:45 AM   #86
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Or a michael jackson sort of way?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 03-27-2006, 11:52 AM   #87
merlynn
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Really Nick you are very very bad, but in a very Mr T sort of way
he may be bad but we all love him dearly

some things are so dear and so precious you have to let them go
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:22 PM   #88
zenofmoo
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

So right then mate, I think the general consensus is that your BAD! For no other reason than your bad.

I would like to offer a couple of opposing pov here.

Firstly, I belong to a regular club where we don't have to put mats away nor do we clean afterward. Going to a new club, this would be different for me.

Secondly, If I saw the rest of people putting the mats away, I would presume that I needed to help out with that, as a simple courtesy.

Patrick Davis
Aikido Eastside, Bellevue Washington, USA
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:04 PM   #89
emma.mason15
Dojo: Shima Arashi Dojo
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I agree .... Nick simpson your a very bad man ....... GO to my room! ...

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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Old 03-28-2006, 05:28 PM   #90
James Davis
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
Emma Mason wrote:
I agree .... Nick simpson your a very bad man ....... GO to my room! ...
Dirty, dirty girl.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 03-28-2006, 07:11 PM   #91
emma.mason15
Dojo: Shima Arashi Dojo
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

*shrugs!*

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:06 PM   #92
Dan D Carreau
Dojo: Chudokan
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Nick

Any new menbers if they seam out of place you should help them
as you would with a white blet.

Dan
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:17 AM   #93
merlynn
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Dirty, dirty girl.
yes but james this is why we all love emma so much

some things are so dear and so precious you have to let them go
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Old 03-30-2006, 05:25 PM   #94
Scott Josephus
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Thumbs down Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Hi, just my quick two cents. I just became 4th kyu, which means that I've been approximately training for about two years. Now, here's the thing- as I am constantly reminded by my Sensei- the techniques themselves are part of our training, true, but awareness is also a big part of our training. Now, assuming, as the aikidoka in question is also 4th Kyu, that your dojo rules vary slightly from hers, it shouldn't have taken that much awareness to notice, "Hmm . . . everyone else is putting away mats. Perhaps I should also". Just a thought. SO I don't think that you were out of line at all.
A point in case: This past weekend, I went up to Merrillville for and Iaido seminar, and when it was over, I wasn't sure of the dojo's general customs, so I went to the Dojo Cho and asked if there was anything I could do to help. I ended up sweeping the mat. The point is, being 4th Kyu, she should have known better, and could have asked if she wasn't sure about protocol. Our chores and customs for cleaning the dojo are as much a part of our training as whatever waza or undowe do on the mat. As my Sensei points out often, "Everything in Aikido is there for a reason, from the way we get up from Seiza to the way in which we clean the dojo. I think that perhaps she needs to revisit that.

Anyway, to answer, no I don't think you're bad, she should have known better.

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Old 03-31-2006, 01:40 PM   #95
Michael Neal
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I think you could have gradually accustomed this person to your dojos etiquette without confronting them about it on their first night. I personally would have said Ok and helped you put the mats away then never came back, to me it would appear like you were a bunch of nannies on power trips.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 03-31-2006 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:47 PM   #96
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I kind of equate this to some military experiences I have. I am a field grade officer, in public, in uniform soldiers of lower rank are supposed to salute me when passing. I is similar in function and reasons we do things in the dojo as far as ettiquette goes. There is a reason for it and it is appropriate.

That said, I don't keep count or worry about it either. Many times soldiers will be talking to their buddies or it just doesn't seem to pass the common sense test. While it is well within my right to go up and demand the respect and make them do it...I don't and would be embarrassed to do this. Many times I will salute the soldiers if their hands are full.

Why say this? well while it is important to do this stuff, sometimes it goes beyond the reasons for doing it and if I become a "salute collector" what kind of person I am really?

I also don't care of keep track of who picks up mats in the dojo, only when it becomes a problem does it really matter, which is rarely. Sometimes people get involved in a conversation, and it is much more important to have that conversation than to pick up mats. Who really cares.

Our egos must be able to handle the fact that we are their to train ourselves and as long as we do what is right, then we are good to go. When we start "counting" and worrying about others...we miss the point of our training all together.
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Old 03-31-2006, 04:44 PM   #97
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Sometimes people get involved in a conversation, and it is much more important to have that conversation than to pick up mats. Who really cares.
In our dojo everyone also pitches in to clean. This involves sweeping, dusting, vacuuming, etc. and it never involves any one person being involved in the cleaning for more than 5 minutes. I can't imagine any conversation being so important that it can't wait that 5 minutes.

Cleaning the dojo is part of your training. It is part of building that respect and kinship with your training partners in the mutual spirit of co-operation. In my opinion it is disrespectful for someone to stand around carrying on a conversation while everyone else cleans around them.

Satome Shihan actually addresses cleaning of the dojo two times:

In "rules of the dojo" it states:
Cleaning is an active prayer of thanksgiving. It is each student's responsibility to assist in cleaning the dojo and to cleanse his or her own mind and heart.
In "Proper dojo etiquette" it states:
The amt should be swept before class each day and after practice is over. It is everyone's responsibility to keep the dojo clean.

Then it states:
If you are unable to abide by these rules, you will be unable to study Aikido in this dojo.

I think that spells it out pretty clearly.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 03-31-2006, 05:26 PM   #98
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

The point i was trying to make is that one should not be concerned with what others do or don't do so much as their own actions.

I study/studied with ASU in DC area so I am aware of the rules of ASU and Saotome sensei. He also is big on patience, tolerance, and having people work together. That can come in many forms.

I agree cleaning is important and one should be concerned with filial responsibilities to the dojo and the community. There is yin and yang invovled however!
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Old 03-31-2006, 06:45 PM   #99
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
The point i was trying to make is that one should not be concerned with what others do or don't do so much as their own actions.

I study/studied with ASU in DC area so I am aware of the rules of ASU and Saotome sensei. He also is big on patience, tolerance, and having people work together. That can come in many forms.

I agree cleaning is important and one should be concerned with filial responsibilities to the dojo and the community. There is yin and yang invovled however!
Kevin,
I agree people should not be concerned with what others are doing per say and also agree there is a yin and yang involved.

I was merely pointing out that proper dojo etiquette dictates that everyone should be involved in the cleaning process and on that basis Nick, as assistant instructor and responsible for ensuring proper dojo etiquette involved, was well within his responsibilitys to ask the lady in question to assit in cleaing up instead of packing her bag to leave.

We have had students who had to go to work immediately after training and are making a sacrifice to be there to train on a "lunch hour" so as soon as we bow out they have to grab a rushed shower and get back to work. There may always be extenuating circumstances but this wasn't presented as that type of situation.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-01-2006, 11:49 AM   #100
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

sounds good Michael! Have a nice day!
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