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Old 12-01-2005, 01:21 PM   #26
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

That seems to be the common perception, but can you see my concerns in why I asked her if she was injured? What I was trying to do was ask her in a NICE manner if there was a reason she couldnt put mats away. People are complicated. Bah.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-01-2005, 03:13 PM   #27
James Davis
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
That seems to be the common perception, but can you see my concerns in why I asked her if she was injured? What I was trying to do was ask her in a NICE manner if there was a reason she couldnt put mats away. People are complicated. Bah.
Next time, try shortening it to "Bah!".

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 12-01-2005, 03:18 PM   #28
John Boswell
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Next time, try shortening it to "Bah!".
ROFL!!!

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Old 12-02-2005, 12:45 AM   #29
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

If I was a guest in another dojo and (inintentionally) did something that would be against that dojos ettiquette I would want to be told straight away - even if it would make me feel awkward at first. It depends on the tone you used of course but I think you did her a favour.
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Old 12-02-2005, 07:56 AM   #30
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I used a nice tone. Im lovely.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:21 AM   #31
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I train in the same dojo as nick and would like to add a little to what he said. This class is a unversity class which is ran by a bigger organisation. There are new students every year join the class, many have had no experience in ANY martial arts class EVER, yet they still all seem to get the idea that they put the matts away with the rest of us. There were a lot of senior grades (for that class) there and lots of students who don't wear gi yet, but who have trained at the class since september(ish) who also put the matts away, this means that (with the exception of the sensei) pretty much the entire class was putting the matts away, I would have thought that would have been enough of a hint.

As for the way he said it, anyone who knows nick would know that he means no harm (when he does you can tell the difference) this girl had trained with him a few times that night and would have known this.

It might be a biased oppinion but i think nick did the right thing to instill the level of etiquette that is needed for our organisation, especially as the girl in question will be attending a class ran by the chief Sensei for our org on monday. Any slight embarrasment or bad hurt feelings which may have been caused on Wednesday would have saved a lot of embarresment on monday had Sensei picked up on it then.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:30 AM   #32
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I think the emotional content of your message sends an important message. What I got out of your words was "I have authority over you. I have cornered you now. Now that is has been established that you do not have any excuses about being injured, you are bad for not helping put the mats away."

Rank means responsbility. My question to myself before talking to a new student about that would be: How can I mentor in a trust-building way to preserve the wa? Authoritive power is BS. Expert power is valuable but only few very thick skinned people will listen to you if you are a jerk about it (even unintentionally). The only power that has any meaning is Charasmatic power. Being incharge of people in martial arts should require both expert and charasmatic power. It would be interesting to see both of those things tested for rank.

Rob
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:42 AM   #33
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Im very charismatic. I just thought that I was using the right words. I can see now how they could have been misconstrued, in the future I will adopt a simpler approach methinks.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:46 AM   #34
happysod
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

"Howay man, move the mats, divvint just stand there like a sack of tatties" perchance?
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:57 AM   #35
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Thats it! Thanks Ian Years of watching Aufwhiedersen Pet, must have paid off eh?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-02-2005, 09:13 AM   #36
happysod
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

No, as I mentioned in the bikes & beer intro, I'm originally from Seaton Sluice, so rather aware of the normal vernacular of that bit of the artic circle (already shivering at the thought of visiting dearest momma)... aah, W/bay YMCA dojo, now that was an interesting aikido dojo
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Old 12-02-2005, 09:16 AM   #37
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Who taught there? Wasn't Isac Coll Sensei was it?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-02-2005, 09:37 AM   #38
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Oh yes, Isaac and George - he isn't with your lot now is he? (I think he was unaffiliated when I was there)
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Old 12-02-2005, 09:40 AM   #39
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Nope, he was part of a different org than ours originally and he now runs his own club.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-02-2005, 09:41 AM   #40
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

No, but one of our local sensei started with him and thinks a great deal of him. he has took a few people along to train with him too, i haven't been yet, but i hope to soon

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 12-02-2005, 09:49 AM   #41
happysod
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Isaac was an evil bugger then and I doubt he's changed that much, tell him I said hi very long distance and ask him to tell you his bouncer stories
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:03 AM   #42
Nick Simpson
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

That would mean I would have to get close enough to talk to him...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:06 AM   #43
senshincenter
 
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I think it's fine to ask someone to follow your dojo customs - even is that custom is that all guests help out, etc.

However, I think coming at her first with the injury question might of come across like you were doubting her good intentions or something - so yeah, maybe asking her first to help and then, if pressed, maybe follow that up with some allowances to the contrary, maybe that might have been best.

Sometimes it's us that can't come to the obviousness of the truth in such circumstances - thus we can't just say it as it is. We can't just say, "Hey, nice to have you in class. Would you mind helping out with the mats before you get ready to leave. Thanks." We often look for some way to say it without saying it how it is (e.g. Do you have some problem or reason for why you are not following our customs?). But in doing that, we leave a lot of room for potential misunderstanding in the other person.

On a kind of other topic, while dojo culture runs best as a natural extension of the group following protocols they have agreed to adopt as their own, every dojo needs an assistant instructor or a dai-senpai that has no problem just saying things like they are. Man - that's not just the right of this kind of senior member, that's the duty of this kind of member. Sensei may have to be diplomatic, e.g. "It would be great if folks could donate some money toward the purchase of some new mats, the old ones are really falling a part. Hopefully, you will see that everyone's well-being will benefit from us pooling our resources toward this end." Dai-Senpai version: "Come on - dish up some cash - we need mats. It's OUR dojo, it's OUR expense."

In the grand scheme of things, Nick, you did the thing you were supposed to do - only next time, in my opinion, you might want to try and be more comfortable with your necessary role and just say it like it is: "Please stay and help us all clean up - it's part of the class here." Then, if she has something or some reason to excuse her, she should tell it to you (which is something your instructor should let her know that she can do). If not, then she should simply say, "Whoops, sorry. Thanks for telling me." End of story.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:23 AM   #44
Nick Simpson
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Thanks David, thats a very refreshing pov. I've thought about it alot and what you suggest (as well as a few others) is the direction Im going to take in future matters like this.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-02-2005, 11:02 AM   #45
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Yes Nick you are bad

(just thought if it was said three times in a row something might happen to you).

As a 4th kyu I would have expected her to help. Everything comes down to judgement, but I think you did something that the rest wished they'd done but were too embarassed to. It's not really etiquette - it's about helping others. As an instructor I still helps put the mats in and out - basically 'cos its' quicker and we can get more training done, and also because we're all students of aikido. Regardless of the dojo I'd at least offer to help to put the mats away. Just because someone isn't obliged to do something doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.
I kinda like where you are going with this. My sensei proudly explained that he had already put his dues in as a mudansha regarding putting away mats. Therefore, he never helped. Although, he did help tape them together. A sensei not helping put away mats is like a sensei not willing to take ukemi from his students. Leading by example is always the best policy.

You are not a bad guy. Regardless of entering rank and what a mudansha "ought" to know, I feel it is sensei's erspopnsibility to kindly go over expectations. Once this has been established by the sensei, then the sempai may moderate and inforce it.

I probably would have let it slide until she recieved verbal notification from Sensei regarding dojo expectations or a leaflets that some dojo hand out to new students explaining the rules.

I got onto a kohei that had been training with us for quite a while. Apparently he thought he did not have to put mats away like the rest of us. He would walk around and watch us as if he was too good. I finally said something. I felt bad for it as I do not like to play babysitter but sometimes it is necessary and it provides the opportunity to lead the stray.
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Old 12-02-2005, 02:29 PM   #46
aikigirl10
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

maybe u should try going back to her and explain that u werent trying to be rude and maybe explain that its just part of the procedure and etiquette of your dojo. Like Sean said.. the message was fine , the delivery might have come off as a little rude.
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:14 PM   #47
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I don't see any problem with your addressing the problem.
Everyone should do their share.....everyone ELSE was, afterall. (Instructor included)
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 12-03-2005, 06:02 AM   #48
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Thanks again guys. Brad, I know what you mean I dont particularly enjoy doing it,but it has to be done. This isnt the first time at that dojo that I have said something to someone. Previously it was a student who had been training there for 3/4 years, when the rest of us put the mats away he would inspect his bokken and jo for damage, till I asked him if he could put some mats away. I just didnt really want this pattern to re-establish itself.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-03-2005, 06:13 AM   #49
crbateman
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner... This visitor had to ask permission to train in your dojo, right? Perhaps that is the opportunity for your Sensei to reply "Yes, you may train with us, provided you follow our dojo rules, which include helping us take down the mats after training..."
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Old 12-03-2005, 07:23 AM   #50
3girls
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Re: Am I A Bad Guy?

Hey Nick,

just my .02 truthfully after class was over she should have offered to help out. This would be much like me coming to dinner and after I would ask to help clean up. It would be up to you to accept or decline in both situations. That said like some already has said a simple "hey do you have a minute to help pick up?" because we never know what is on someones mind at the time. Maybe she has troubles at home and the the dojo was her moment to forget then after class she was dreading going home. Who knows?

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29
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