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Old 12-19-2005, 03:37 PM   #76
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Absolutely correct. Which makes me wonder why you said what you did in the quote above...
Best,
Ron
Because it was pretty much absorbed into Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. You would hard pressed to find some authentic Fusen-Ryu schools out there.

Quote:
Takeuchi-ryu is an example of a classical school that still exists that trains jujutsu. Interestingly enough...I don't believe you will find any BJJ style 'ground grappling' in it. I wouldn't be surprised if much the same could be said about Kito ryu and the other traditional jujutsu styles that judo comes from. But I could be proven wrong. Just to be clear, something like kosen judo would NOT qualify as a 'classical' style of jujutsu.
You were trying to say that ground grappling did not exist in classical jujitsu and I was countering that point by showing where it came from.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-19-2005 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 12-19-2005, 03:41 PM   #77
Ron Tisdale
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

What would make you say that they "probably do not practice the same"? One of the major features of a koryu is kata training, and it's use in maintaining the traditions of the ryu.

Again, the majority of schools in say, the US was not what you said. You said it does not exist anymore as originally practised. I named some that are. Are you saying they don't?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 12-19-2005, 03:45 PM   #78
Ron Tisdale
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

The following is a list of koryu jujutsu styles described at www.koryubooks.com, and the approximate dates of their founding.

Araki-ryu kogusoku
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1573)
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
founded mid-Meiji period (ca. 1890)
Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1660)
Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Tokugawa period (ca. 1640)
Sosuishitsu-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1650)
Takenouchi-ryu jujutsu
founded late Muromachi period (1532)
Tatsumi-ryu heiho
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1550)
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu
founded ca. 1830
Yagyu Shingan-ryu taijutsu
founded early 1600s

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-19-2005, 03:50 PM   #79
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

some koryu trained only kata others did a combination of kata and randori. Mostly, the ryu that did randori type training were merged into Judo.

Quote:
Takeuchi-ryu is an example of a classical school that still exists that trains jujutsu. Interestingly enough...I don't believe you will find any BJJ style 'ground grappling' in it. I wouldn't be surprised if much the same could be said about Kito ryu and the other traditional jujutsu styles that judo comes from. But I could be proven wrong. Just to be clear, something like kosen judo would NOT qualify as a 'classical' style of jujutsu.
Sure they exist, but the real ones are very rare.
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Old 12-19-2005, 03:54 PM   #80
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
The following is a list of koryu jujutsu styles described at www.koryubooks.com, and the approximate dates of their founding.

Araki-ryu kogusoku
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1573)
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
founded mid-Meiji period (ca. 1890)
Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1660)
Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Tokugawa period (ca. 1640)
Sosuishitsu-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1650)
Takenouchi-ryu jujutsu
founded late Muromachi period (1532)
Tatsumi-ryu heiho
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1550)
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu
founded ca. 1830
Yagyu Shingan-ryu taijutsu
founded early 1600s
Ok Ron you got me, they exist. My point really was not that they do not exist at all but that they are very rare and do not really represent a viable training option for most people.

I would also contend that the best of koryu jujitsu was tried under contest and absorbed into Judo, including those styles that included ground grappling. Existing koryu jujitsu is probably more useful as a museum exhibit than a martial art for the modern world.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-19-2005 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 12-19-2005, 04:14 PM   #81
Ron Tisdale
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Huh...since many of them used kogusoku to dispatch their opponants, I don't think they would have a problem with working just fine. You may think they are just a museum piece, but I certainly don't, and I don't think you would if you had much experience with them.

As far as the best comment, judo is pretty much from Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, both of which are still around. Judo's main innovation is in the area of the type of randori practiced, and that it is the central feature of the training. Just remove the locks against the joints, the neck breaks, etc., and train what you can train safely. That doesn't say that the other methods don't work. It does say that to go full out, full resistance, you don't want to use those other things. That's a far cry from 'these are the best waza'. Those are the best waza for that method of training, if you want to walk home that night.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 12-19-2005 at 04:17 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:06 AM   #82
xuzen
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
I don't think the Gracies try and fix the rules to their advantage but they do pick their fights carefully to minimize the possibility of losing.
Many masters do this. The ability to know before hand if they can win or not makes them stand out as masters. Sun-tzu the military sage said, "Know thy enemy; a thousand battle fought, a thousand battle won" The Gracies are smart people.

Quote:
But the rules lawyers are definitely in play at various MMA events. In UFC for example, you can not knee someone in the face when they shoot for your legs, this puts wrestlers at an advantage against someone trained in Muay Thai or other striking art.
Also, rules are there for safety and crowd pleasing aspect. No legitimate state will sanction a sport if its participant routinely leaves the ring in body bag. Plus, things like these depend on spectator and their willingness to spend money on the tickets, the rules are there to make the sport attractive.

Quote:
BJJ is no longer the dominate style of fighting for MMA but it is the best style for ground-fighting, they have to cross train to round out their skills just like everyone else.
When BJJ first made appearance at NHB events, many participants are caught unaware of its tactics and strategies. Therefore BJJ'ers swept the medal tally. Now, through research and development many participants and their coach have found BJJ's weakness.

Quote:
Every martial art has weaknesses that need to be balanced with other types of training. What gets me is the Aikidoka (or any other martial artist) that think their style is perfectly suitable for any type of situation. It simply is not true.
The technical form may not be the end all and be all; but its principles are... as many martial arts in the market.

Quote:
Originally jujitsu included all this type of training: ground fighting, joint locks, throws, strikes, etc. And I am not talking about the various modern Japanese influenced jujitsu schools that we see today that are pretty much just a weak mixture of karate, judo, and aikido. Jujitsu really does not exist anymore as it was originally practiced.
Guns made jujutsu redundant.

Quote:
Jujitsu split up into a variety of martial arts specializing in one aspect of fighting. Aikido focuses on joint locks and multiple opponents, Judo on big throws and newaza, BJJ on ground fighting, karate on striking etc. None of these is a complete system, they all have weaknesses in particular situations.
If there is an art that is complete and addresses all scenarios, then we would not have other arts would we?

Quote:
Judo if practiced exclusively for sport does limit some of the applications of the art as well.
A sport oriented judo dojo will produce mainly athletes, not self defense oriented person. Like you said Michael, cross training in some self defensed focused dojo/centre will produce well rounded martial artist.

Quote:
But in a style vs. style fight, I think most Aikido and Karate practitioners would be at a disadvantage since they rely on some medium range distance to be successful.
IF being the operative word. Personally, if it is breached... change to jujutsu mode.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 12-20-2005, 08:59 AM   #83
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Huh...since many of them used kogusoku to dispatch their opponants, I don't think
they would have a problem with working just fine. You may think they are just a museum piece, but
I certainly don't, and I don't think you would if you had much experience with them.
We will just have to disagree, I just don't find much value in training based almost completely on kata.
Judo and its training methods have proven on more than one occasion its superiority over classical jujitsu
when put head to head. There is definatley some cross training value in classical jujitsu but I think
there are better choices out there, including Aikido.

Quote:
As far as the best comment, judo is pretty much from Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, both
of which are still around. Judo's main innovation is in the area of the type of randori practiced, and that it is
the central feature of the training.
No, Judo encompasses many more styles than that including Fusen-Ryu. Remember Kano brought many jujitsu
masters into Judo, Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu are just the styles that Kano practiced. By the way,
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu did include newaza which Kano originally based much of Judo's ground curriculum from.
later being supplemented by Fusen-Ryu.

Quote:
Just remove the locks against the joints, the neck breaks, etc., and train what you can train safely.
That doesn't say that the other methods don't work. It does say that to go full out, full resistance,
you don't want to use those other things. That's a far cry from 'these are the best waza'. Those are
the best waza for that method of training, if you want to walk home that night.

Best,
Ron
Again, the neck breaks may be perfectly fine techniques but if you can not train them in some sort of
realistic manner they are not going to be as useful as the techniques you train in randori. Judo still contains
many of these dangerous techniques in its kata but what makes Judo so effective is its live training. The
techniques that you can apply to fully resisting opponents are going to be much more useful to you than techniques
you practice in kata. So the "best waza" are those you can use effectively in a live situation, not the ones that are
the most"deadly." And this goes right into my next point on why classical jujitsu is so archaic, we now live in a society that
would frown on using many of those "neck breaking" techniques, even in self defense.

Here is a quote from Kano on some of the principles behind his system, it is much more than just training techniques
that are safe for randori, it is based on what works.

Quote:
When I encountered differences in the teaching of techniques, I often found myself
at a loss to know which was correct. This led me to look for an underlying
principle in jujutsu, one that applied when one hit an opponent as well as when one threw him.
After a thorough study of the subject, I discerned an a1l-pervasive principle: to make the most
efficient use of mental and physical energy. With this principle in mind, I again reviewed all
the methods of attack and defense I had learned, retaining only those that were in accordance with
the principle. Those not in accord with it I rejected, and in their place I substituted techniques
in which the principle was correctly applied. The resulting body of technique, which I
named judo to distinguish it from its predecessor, is what is taught at the Kodokan.
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Old 12-20-2005, 09:38 AM   #84
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote:
I think BJJ gets more free promotion through these threads than any other martial art.
so true!
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:11 AM   #85
Aristeia
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:

When BJJ first made appearance at NHB events, many participants are caught unaware of its tactics and strategies. Therefore BJJ'ers swept the medal tally. Now, through research and development many participants and their coach have found BJJ's weakness.
Kind of true, but I think it's less a case of having found BJJs weakness than a case of other people getting their own ground game to a point where they have a chance to utilise other tools. I think if you were to find some of the sprawl and brawlers that are successfully beating BJJers and just grapple with them, you'd be surprised at how good their ground game is. It has to be to deal with those guys. To be familiar enough with take downs they can see them coming early. To have their escapes and reversals at a point where they can keep the fight standing.

In the old days no one knew what to do on the ground and got schooled. Today it's not a case of "oh we've found the secret to beating ground fighters" so much as a case of "we're now good enough at ground fighting ourselves to somewhat neutralise that and take the fight back to where we want it:"

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:12 AM   #86
M. McPherson
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Warning: I'm about to pick some nits here...

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I would also contend that the best of koryu jujitsu was tried under contest and absorbed into Judo, including those styles that included ground grappling. Existing koryu jujitsu is probably more useful as a museum exhibit than a martial art for the modern world.
Mr. Neal,

Respectfully, that's a pretty broad and inaccurate brush you're painting with. I see the point of your argument that judo randori provides a much more demonstrable avenue of skill application than kata might seem to, and generally agree. There's oft-times no better way to "test" a technique than during the adrenal dump and aerobic torture of randori or a shiai. And I can think of very few koryu grappling exponents who would not recommend off-setting kata study with some freestyle. Just remember that they're, in many ways, two different animals. Kata practice in the koryu is not about demonstration, the kind you'd see at an enbu - it is a means of instruction of potentially injurious or lethal techniques within "safely" proscribed parameters. You can correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't part of Kano's intent to provide an avenue of instruction that circumscribed dangerous waza? To provide practitioners of his new art the means of a long life of (relatively) injury-free practice? The koryu can't do that - you put a blade someone's hands, with the intent of teaching them how to kill with that blade, and it's a bit self-defeating to tell your students to have at it to see how well things work, don't you think? Hence, kata. Competition grappling (judo, bjj, etc) have incredible applications beyond shiai, but their combative applications can't touch what koryu jujutsu teach of the same (and have some classical jujutsu ryu become vitiated? Sure. So has a lot of modern stuff)
Re: the above quoted, I think it's fairly parochial to think judo somehow dominated contemporaneous jujutsu ryu, and therefore sent them all packing into irrelevance and extinction by dint of its superior waza. You should head on over to ebudo and check out some of the threads concerning the matter. There's an interesting post (you'll have to do some searching) by a man named Scott Laking, who is actually a member of a branch of Fusen Ryu (still extant and operating, by the way, in Okayama Prefecture). He mentions the point that judo's burgeoning popularity during this time was due to several factors, but mostly a result of social trends, politics, and marketing. It excelled in shiai because this is what it did, but it came about at a time when Japanese society in general was embracing social egalitarianism - the very antithesis of the classical arts. Something else you touched upon, too, but yeah, koryu are tough to find, and most of them prefer it that way. It's just how they're set up. You can't transmit a nonstandardized fighting tradition in anything more than small groups. It just doesn't seem to work.
Please don't read this as a critique of the limitations of judo - I'm a strong proponent of the art, and its training methods (and randori in particular) above most current gendai budo. But to consider that judo is somehow the final, correct form of grappling evolution is, to me, a bit shortsighted. And koryu jujutsu a museum piece? From what I've seen and experienced, hardly. To me, judo and its antecedents are just two wheels on the same cart.

Sincerely,
Murray McPherson

Last edited by M. McPherson : 12-20-2005 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:40 AM   #87
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Murray, I was not trying to say that judo was the end all be all of grappling, and if you read my posts more carefully you will see that I find value in kata training. In fact, Judo has many different katas that demonstrate various classical jujitsu techniques. I am a firm beliver that those Judoka who choose not to practice any of the katas and variations of techniques and strategies for self defense situations, put themselves more at risk for street encounters.

My point however is that those classical styles that do no randori are at a huge disadvantage since they rarely get to test their technique in realistic situations. This was demonstrated in the famous Tokyo Police Tournament, these matches were not like today's judo matches as there were virtually no rules.

Quote:
The new Kodokan Judo was the centre of public attention. Everyone admired it tenets and slogans and its high idealism. But its practical merits in combat were looked upon with doubts and suspicion and even contempt by old Jujitsu men, including the then outstanding master Hikosuke Totsuka, who commanded a very large following. Naturally there developed a keen rivalry between the Totsuka School and the Kodokan. In 1886, under the auspices of the Chief of Metropolitan Police, a grand tournament was arranged between both schools. This was a decisive battle. Defeat would have been fatal to the Kodokan. But in that tournament, to which each school sent 15 picked men, the Kodokan won all the bouts excepting two which ended in a draw (note: it is tempting to speculate that such contests were more like duels than sporting events, considering the time period). That brilliant victory established once and for all the supremacy of the Kodokan Judo over all Jujitsu schools, not only in principles but also in techniques.
It is also shown in modern matches where arts like Judo and BJJ are very powerful forces in MMA, classical jujitsu is not. The fact is that in order to believe that classical jujitsu is an equal to Judo in effectivenss would take almost blind faith because you would be hard pressed to provide any example or evidence of this other than intellectual theory.


You can read more about Judo history here if you are interested
http://judoinfo.com/history.htm

This is why I have always been an outspoken (to the point of being annoying) advocate of more randori in Aikido because I think it is vital to the effectiveness of the art. If I were an Aikido instructor, regardless of style, I would have at least 15-20 minutes of some form of randori each class.
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:35 PM   #88
M. McPherson
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Michael,

No, I'm fairly certain I read your posts. The quote I used of yours, however, gave the impression that you feel most of these arts were subsumed by judo because of the results of shiai. Even one like the Tokyo Police tournament. That's a small sample set. And it's historically incorrect (the quote, not the results of the Tokyo shiai). These arts do continue on, and some of them do include randori. Are they as popular as judo? No way, no how. Can they compete with it in popularity. Again no, nor would they want to at this point. (As an aside, many current heads of classical grappling ryu also teach judo on alternate nights, such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu, and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I can't believe that men of such high rank in both arts are doing one versus the other just because they need something to fill the off nights)
Also, you seem to be arguing the irrelevance of classical jujutsu in the modern arena (the literal arena). I'd be strongly inclined to agree. But there are a considerable number of active military and LEO folks who see the strong need for it as a healthy combative balance to the sportive arts. (I'd be happy to provide some online and written resources of such people, if you'd like. Just send me an email)
Many of the jujutsu ryu of the day did, in fact, have randori in their syllabi. Do many of them now? No. Why? Again, judo. I wrote about the rise of judo, and why that was (I should mention that I have no race in this horse. I've very glad judo came about).
Also, read back where I wrote that the putative intent of a koryu practitioner and a judoka are different. No, koryu jujutsu will probably not be as effective as judo within the rules and intent of shiai judo, because the various ryu were not aimed at competition, or fostering a social ideal. You're mistaking apples for oranges if you see their aims as identical. You could also argue it the other way, Michael: it would take a blinding amount of naivete to consider a judoka would do anything but bleed to death quickly when seriously confronting, say, a Takeuchi Ryu adept holding a blade of any size in his hand. So it smacks of logical fallacy to compare what most classical jujutsu ryu would do in a mma arena. You'd have to then wonder how any of the Gracie clan might fare at Sekigahara.
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the need for judoka to have a firm grounding in the kata of the art. I like the judo kata a lot. But watch them side by side with any of the demonstrable kata from Takeuchi Ryu, Araki Ryu, Sosuishitsu Ryu, or any of the other Sengoku jujutsu ryu, and you'll see an appreciable difference in timing, distance, and certainly intent. A very appreciable difference.
Thank you for the link to the JudoInfo site. I've been there many times, and have taken away much. A caveat, though: it is generally agreed upon by those who know far more than me that the site's weak point is its collection of articles dealing with judo history. You can scour the various fora for posts about the matter by the following folks: Ellis Amdur, Steve Delaney, Kit LeBlanc, Russ Ebert (those are some I can remember off the top of my head), or Mark Feigenbaum. They've pointed out some glaring mistakes with regard to judo history on judoinfo, and it provides a necessary balance to the surplus of amazing offerings there.

Best regards,
Murray McPherson
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:41 PM   #89
Ron Tisdale
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Hi Murray, good to see you posting. I think we're fighting a lost battle here. But it was fun while I had the patience for it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:48 PM   #90
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Hi, Ron.

I'm going to stop posting because I'm probably contributing to some serious thread drift!
Hope you have a great couple of holidays (why, oh why did they have to jam them together like this? My waistline suffers...)!

Best regards,
Murray
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:53 PM   #91
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Michael: it would take a blinding amount of naivete to consider a judoka would do anything but bleed to death quickly when seriously confronting, say, a Takeuchi Ryu adept holding a blade of any size in his hand. So it smacks of logical fallacy to compare what most classical jujutsu ryu would do in a mma arena
Now you are getting ridiculous and you know it, hopefully

Quote:
They've pointed out some glaring mistakes with regard to judo history on judoinfo, and it provides a necessary balance to the surplus of amazing offerings there.
I would love to see a discussion about it, I would like to invite those people you mentioned or anyone else to my judo site http://www.judoholics.com or http://www.judoinfo.com and begin that debate where some Judoka of much more experience than I could participate. I think it would be great debate.

Quote:
The quote I used of yours, however, gave the impression that you feel most of these arts were subsumed by judo because of the results of shiai. Even one like the Tokyo Police tournament. That's a small sample set. And it's historically incorrect (the quote, not the results of the Tokyo shiai)
The fact is that they were subsumed by Judo due to such competetions, again I welcome the debate about the supposed historical inaccuracies.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-20-2005 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:55 PM   #92
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Er, in the longer of my previous posts, I meant to write that I don't have a "horse in this race," not "a race in this horse." I've been trying to fool folks that my dyslexia is currently in remission. So much for that.
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Old 12-20-2005, 01:33 PM   #93
M. McPherson
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Now you are getting ridiculous and you know it, hopefully.
Hey, thanks for the condescension, Michael. No, I guess I'm living blissfully unaware. Which part of either of my posts (you know, the ones where I repeatedly mentioned that trying to compare the aims of koryu to a gendai, sportive budo is, oh, a bit ridiculous in and of itself) did you skip over?
If you're reading my posts to say that I honestly think that any koryu practitioner would actually ever confront someone one with a knife, then, again, I think you've misread. My point (and I'm considering writing this in florid, large, colored font) is that you can't compare efficacy of one art with another in their respective arena.
I would love to come visit your site, but I'm afraid that this issue (wasn't really much of a debate, as I remember it) has been covered extensively on fora like e-budo and budoseek, at least. No need to reinvent the wheel, unless you're just looking for filler material to get your own board up and running. Good on you for that, but nobody needs another martialist.com. If you're not already, register on the sites I mentioned, and then you'll be able to perform some searches (it's free). Most of those in the know on any of the decent fora are pretty approachable. I would suggest that if you're inviting people to any discussion about that matter that you invite both judoka and koryu folks. Preferably those who have vast experience in both, of which many of the aforementioned do.
By the way, Michael, just what *is* your experience in koryu? You know, 'cuz I'd like to hope (given my abiding faith in humanity) that you're speaking from well-measured experience in the matter, and can actually make comparisons. Me? I have a smattering of experience in both, and try to learn from those who have more. Needless to say, I have a long way to go. Maybe I'll set up a website.

Ron, methinks you're right. Okay, as of now, no more thread drift from me.
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Old 12-20-2005, 02:16 PM   #94
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

It is really difficult to have a discussion here without people's insecurities showing by either throwing up their hands in frustration or becoming defensive. I am not fighting with you guys, I am just stating my opinion like everyone else.

Quote:
Hey, thanks for the condescension, Michael. No, I guess I'm living blissfully unaware. Which part of either of my posts (you know, the ones where I repeatedly mentioned that trying to compare the aims of koryu to a gendai, sportive budo is, oh, a bit ridiculous in and of itself) did you skip over?
No condescention by me, I was just stating the fact that bringing swords and knives into the argument is absurd, you can not compare the "deadly" open hand techniques of jujitsu to swords and knives. The fact remains that koryu was defeated repeadly by Judo in contest, I have seen no example of the opposite happening, your argument is purley theoretical and take blind faith to believe. Just because koryu contains techniques that are "too deadly" for competition does not mean that they would win if able to use such techniques, Judo has such techniques as well. What koryu, for the most part, does not have is the live training to make their techniques the most applicable in real life situations. A "safer" Judo technique perfected through years of randori and shiai would be much more likely to succeed in combat than a "deadly" technique practiced only through kata.

Quote:
would love to come visit your site, but I'm afraid that this issue (wasn't really much of a debate, as I remember it) has been covered extensively on fora like e-budo and budoseek, at least. No need to reinvent the wheel, unless you're just looking for filler material to get your own board up and running. Good on you for that, but nobody needs another martialist.com. If you're not already, register on the sites I mentioned, and then you'll be able to perform some searches (it's free). Most of those in the know on any of the decent fora are pretty approachable.
E-budo is pretty much a traditional/classical oriented site run by a few wannabee ninjas so it it really is not very suprising that they they supposedly reached a conclusion like that. I really have no interest in going to their site, I stopped going there years ago.

Since it is judoinfo.com that the people you mentioned are taking issue with it is only logical that they would go there to make their case. There are very few people at Judoinfo.com that read Aikiweb and E-Budo so I actually find it somewhat cowardly to make their criticisms anywhere else but there. If I had a problem with some inaccuracy at Aikiweb I would take the issue up here.

And you are comparing my site to "The Martialist"?

Quote:
By the way, Michael, just what *is* your experience in koryu? You know, 'cuz I'd like to hope (given my abiding faith in humanity) that you're speaking from well-measured experience in the matter, and can actually make comparisons. Me? I have a smattering of experience in both, and try to learn from those who have more.
I have absolutely no experience in koryu, I did my research well before choosing an art to practice. I do have about 1 1/2 years of Aikdo and some experience doing Judo kata so I do know the difference between kata and randori and the effectiveness between the two.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-20-2005 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:35 PM   #95
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
It is really difficult to have a discussion here without people's insecurities showing by either throwing up their hands in frustration or becoming defensive. I am not fighting with you guys, I am just stating my opinion like everyone else.
Hi Michael,

It's got nothing to do with insecurites. Sorry you feel that way. We probably just need to accept we differ on these points, and let it go at that.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:44 PM   #96
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Ron, I agree it's best just to let it go. But I did do some looking around here and at E-Budo and found nothing to indicate some sort of consensus that the Tokyo police tournament history was innacurate. Direct links would be helpful.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-21-2005 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:55 PM   #97
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

I think the absence of competition in aikido has made it less effective as a "sports" martial art. Maybe by filtering the system of useless techniques and adding punching, kicking and ground fighting you will make a more effective martial art but it won't be aikido anymore.

I am no psychologist but I have met a few bjj, mma and mui thai practicioners who really need therapy. I mean all these guys do is talk about beating the crap out of someone, get in bar fights every weekend and compare scars. They just walk around with that "What the #@%$ you looking at @$%$?" expression on their face. I have never met people like that in aikido, traditional karate, judo or any other classical martial art. I think the spiritual/zen aspect produces calmer, self controlled people who are less likely to get into a violent situation and are easier to get along with.
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Old 12-21-2005, 03:42 PM   #98
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
I think the spiritual/zen aspect produces calmer, self controlled people who are less likely to get into a violent situation and are easier to get along with.
True to a degree, but many TMA guys also walk around either a world of delusion about what they can really do in a "real fight" (tm), or deep inside know there limitations, but are afraid to face them and use psuedo japanese rituals and philosophy as a shield to hide behind.

I think MMA and TMA both have advantages and disadvantages in training. I train in both methodologies and have grown to appreciate and understand how both methods can help me be a better person and a more effective martial artist.

I am certainly not an advocate of adding in "sport" aspects to aikido as it was not or is not designed to do this, or be an effective fighting system, but a DO or a way to develop you as a person.

MMA methodologies have a whole other focus.

To be honest, in my experiences in dealing with BJJ or MMA and Muay Thai guys, I have not found them to be as you state, but certainly I have not met all of them and I know their are guys out there like you state. I tend to steer clear of them I guess. I wouldn't dismiss these arts based on a few bad apples. I have met plenty of aiki-jerks as well.
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Old 12-21-2005, 03:45 PM   #99
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Hi Darin,

My experience differs wildly. I've don't hang out with a lot of MMAers, but the few I have met have been gentlemen. No attitudes at all. Don't know what the majority are like.

I have met some REAL peaches in aikido though... Sometimes been one myself...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-21-2005, 04:36 PM   #100
Yo-Jimbo
Dojo: formerly Windward Aikido, formerly at Keewenaw Schools of Aikido (ASU)
Location: Formerly Hawaii Pacific University, formerly at Michigan Technological University
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
You must understand though, to beat someone in their game, you must become better in their game.
I totally agree. Remember that there is another option though, don't get drawn into their game. If you draw them into your game where you are better, it also works well.
When I cross trained with our own BJJ club, this is the rule I used when testing what I knew. Even though/because I am a shodan, I started with their least experienced and worked my way up. I knew that if I progressed slowly up through more experienced people that the chance of either of us being injured was greatly lessened. First I used good aikido principles and kept myself safe. When I was convinced that I could keep myself safe against each person if I didn't play be their rules, I would then progress to learning what I could from them by making controlled vulnerabilities and seeing what they would try to do. When I wanted to learn from them, I would immerse myself in their world and rules instead of trying to impose mine. I learned some good things.

"One does not find wisdom in another's words." -James D. Chye
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