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Old 11-02-2005, 07:51 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Some martial arts come form China, some Japanese arts are influenced to some degree by Chinese stsyems. Others have nothing to do with China or Japan whatsoever.

AIkido is pretty uniquely Japanese, stemming from Daito Ryu jujutsu with minor influences from a couple of other Japanese ryuha.
I would be interested to hear the name of one Japanese martial art uninfluenced by Chinese martial arts.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-02-2005, 08:22 PM   #27
PeterR
 
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Jukendo?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-02-2005, 08:31 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Sort of a sly try, doncha think? Check out the relationship of the arts taught in the Rikugun Toyama Gakko ... that bayonet training had a start in other arts, Peter.

Besides, I was asking Chuck to support his assertion.

Mike
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Old 11-02-2005, 08:37 PM   #29
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Jukendo is based on French bayonet training.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-02-2005, 09:24 PM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Jukendo1.html

I know it won't mean much to you, Peter, but I'm just throwing it in for the cognoscenti to look at. Regardless, instead of your attempt to muddy the issue, consider presenting me with a traditional or popular Japanese art that is not influenced by China.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-02-2005, 10:04 PM   #31
PeterR
 
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Mike;

You asked.

Quote:
I would be interested to hear the name of one Japanese martial art uninfluenced by Chinese martial arts.
I gave a pretty clear answer.

and you responded with

Quote:
presenting me with a traditional or popular Japanese art that is not influenced by China
Do I dare respond and have the goal posts moved again not to mention subject myself to feeble insults. Not cognoscenti indeed. Can you perhaps try to carry on a conversation without hiding behind them.

I wont argue against the huge influence China has had on Japanese culture but it wasn't wholesale, waxed and waned, and went off on some pretty unique tangents. At what point does it stop being Chinese and become Japanese - you seem to be saying never.

Jukendo is based on French bayonet manuals which the Japanese took and made particularily Japanese like they tend to do. They didn't copy the art from China. Jodo, was apparently invented by a Japanese, not imported. Chuck's point on Aikido was that it was derived from Daito Ryu which, if there was a Chinese influence on the latter, it goes back far enough to have had plenty of time to be morphed into a Japanese thing.

I guess the question is how minor an influence, how far back in time is worth commenting on.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Jukendo1.html

I know it won't mean much to you, Peter, but I'm just throwing it in for the cognoscenti to look at. Regardless, instead of your attempt to muddy the issue, consider presenting me with a traditional or popular Japanese art that is not influenced by China.

Mike Sigman

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:00 PM   #32
markwalsh
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Tell me an American art that was not influenced by Europe?

(this isn't a dig at the states)
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:10 PM   #33
PeterR
 
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Mud wrestling?


Seriously its the same argument and a very good analogy.

Baseball can be traced through Rounders

but how about Basketball (we'll forget for a moment that it was actually invented by a Canadian).
Well it uses a court and baskets, both of which existed in Europe, the rules are quite traditional vis a vis fair play, I guess you could say it had European influence. However, not to many people would say its European although there are a few teams that might make it so eventually.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-03-2005, 06:05 AM   #34
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I would be interested to hear the name of one Japanese martial art uninfluenced by Chinese martial arts.

Mike Sigman
Heya Mike, still beating the Chinese drum, I see.

I said: Some martial arts come form China, some Japanese arts are influenced to some degree by Chinese stsyems. Others have nothing to do with China or Japan whatsoever.

Sumo, for one. Although belt wrestling is found throughout Asia, Sumo in its own and spefically in its mature form, is pretty uniquely Japanese. Any Chinese influence will have come through Shinto rathern than in technical applications.

Jukendo, hanbojutsu (a la Uchida Ryu), for example, have strong European origins. The SMR's hanbo/tanjo waza were originally called 'sutekki (stick) waza, and were strongly influenced by la Canne and other Western walking stick methods.

'Chinese influence' is not the same as 'derived from' ...

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Old 11-03-2005, 06:09 AM   #35
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Bump: A more interesting question might be: What influence did the Japanese occupation of China (and Korea for that matter) have on the indigineous martial arts?

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Old 11-03-2005, 07:21 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Heya Mike, still beating the Chinese drum, I see.
I don't beat any Chinese drum and I'm not 'elitist' in the trendy koryu sense about martial arts, Chuck. I tend to look at the overall picture. As big a Japanophile (to coin a word) as I was, I found out that I was missing the bigger picture... which includes India, BTW, if you want to accuse me of beating drums.
Quote:
Sumo, for one. Although belt wrestling is found throughout Asia, Sumo in its own and spefically in its mature form, is pretty uniquely Japanese. Any Chinese influence will have come through Shinto rathern than in technical applications.
Really? Would you like to place a small wager? I used to think that, too, just like I used to think that Japanese swords were uniquely Japanese. It's not true, Chuck. Look at it from the other side..... maybe the problem is not Mike "beating the Chinese drum" but some Japanophiles with fixed, limited ideas doing what they think is protecting their own turf. Ever thought about it from that side?
Quote:
Jukendo, hanbojutsu (a la Uchida Ryu), for example, have strong European origins. The SMR's hanbo/tanjo waza were originally called 'sutekki (stick) waza, and were strongly influenced by la Canne and other Western walking stick methods.

'Chinese influence' is not the same as 'derived from' ...
Watch the video clip of the jukendo 'attack' in the kata. It's not a French attack with a kiai and half-step... anyone knowledgeable will immediately see that even thought Peter was trying to be smarmy, he's on slippery ground because there's a question of just what the influences are in the Jukendo. However, simply getting away from Jukendo and focusing more on the thrust of what I was saying, look at what you're having to do to find out-of-mainstream arts to TRY to find something without Chinese influence. Heck, I used to use Filipino and Indonesia stick fightings as my examples, Chuck... until I found out the huge amount of 2-stick and single short-stick fighting styles that are in China and which used to be used by a lot of the traders from China. Peter's example of "jodo" is another example.... I can show you DVD's of short-staff fighting and forms from China (ancient ones, nothing modern) that look like Tohei must have borrowed for his favorite kata.

In regard to your question about Japanese influence on China... you tell me. I have seen where *some* Chinese think the belt system is a good idea and they've tried to incorporate it. I've seen the importation of some judoka to China in order to teach the shuai jiao people the accepted rules so they can compete in tournaments. When China opened up a couple of decades ago, what were the exchanges and what's going on now? The film crews and enthusiasts *flocked* to China to get films of the coveted Chinese martial arts and Chinese teachers are hard to get in the US because Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc., pay top dollar to get them to teach... we simply can't compete. There is no demand for Japanese martial arts teaching in China. You tell me the influences.

It's because I already knew these things (and trust me, they were contrary to my initial pro-Japan instincts, which I still have to this day) that I was so surprised to find as much knowledge of the ki and kokyu training *among the higher levels of Japanese martial arts*. The lower levels and the westerners involved in Japanese martial arts apparently know next to nothing, but they're too arrogant and proud to even consider that possibility, as obvious as it is.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-03-2005, 05:45 PM   #37
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Peter's example of "jodo" is another example.... I can show you DVD's of short-staff fighting and forms from China (ancient ones, nothing modern) that look like Tohei must have borrowed for his favorite kata
You asked for an example. Are you suggesting that because they look alike (jodo, in this case) that they must be directly influenced? I don't think the people here are arguing that China hasn't influenced Japanese martial arts as much as they're arguing over where the line gets drawn regarding when we can say something is actively influenced by its culture. This is a rather subjective line, don't you agree?
FWIW,
M
ps-I could care less about which art was influenced by what culture. You seem to be rather good at stirring things up though...perhaps there's some arrogance, real or perceived, on both ends of that "westerner" stick?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-03-2005 at 05:55 PM.

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Old 11-03-2005, 05:59 PM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
You asked for an example. Are you suggesting that because they look alike (jodo, in this case) that they must be directly influenced?
Why don't you go look at some of the Chinese short staff before you spout off, Matt? Show an interest in progress instead of protecting the status quo myths.
Quote:
ps-I could care less about which art was influenced by what culture. You seem to be rather good at stirring things up though...perhaps there's some arrogance, real or perceived, on both ends of that "westerner" stick?
I realize that "stirring things up" may be a bit too martial for you, Matt, and I apologize.

Mike
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Old 11-03-2005, 07:37 PM   #39
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Why don't you go look at some of the Chinese short staff before you spout off, Matt?
I didn't doubt that they would look even identical. Did you not understand my point?

Quote:
Show an interest in progress instead of protecting the status quo myths.
I did. I may have been off the mark in my understanding though.

Quote:
I realize that "stirring things up" may be a bit too martial for you, Matt, and I apologize.
Conflict is something I know too well, Mike. You have no need to appologize to me for being "too martial." I made an observation which is certainly subject to my own perceptional short-comings. On top of that, it's hard to get a real sense of people when speaking to them online.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 11-03-2005, 10:00 PM   #40
Charles Hill
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
There is no demand for Japanese martial arts teaching in China.
Hey, I`ll jump in here. Jun posted an interesting article a while back on a federation of Aikido dojo in and around Beijing. In the short time the group has been in existence, there has been a huge increase in the number of practioners and dojo according to the article.

Charles
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Old 11-03-2005, 11:36 PM   #41
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Beijing? Went on a vist earlier this year - I sent them an email asking where and when training was but got no reply.

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