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Old 10-28-2005, 11:55 AM   #1
Walter Wong
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Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

I was told of Ueshiba Sensei spent some years in China studying Ba Gua before the development of Aikido.

Watching Ba Gua demonstrated in application on a live person looked similar to Aikido in application and vice versa. Both looking similar in application.

How much of Ueshiba Sensei's background is not mentioned in regards to specific Martial Arts he studied? Is there information held back for any reason?

Last edited by Walter Wong : 10-28-2005 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 10-28-2005, 12:00 PM   #2
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2098
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6259

-- Jun

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Old 10-28-2005, 12:15 PM   #3
Walter Wong
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Thank you Jun.

I looked around and couldn't find these myself.
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Old 10-28-2005, 05:29 PM   #4
Devon Natario
 
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Historians say that all martial arts stem from China in one way or another.

Jun has posted a couple links, one of which answers your question about Ueshiba. (The second one) Check it out.

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Old 10-28-2005, 05:47 PM   #5
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Post Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Historians say that all martial arts stem from China in one way or another.-devan natorio
that is not true along time ago at an island called okinahwah(not sure if i spelled it right) off of japan is where karate came from then it came to china then to japan and is now considered a japanese martial art
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Old 10-28-2005, 10:37 PM   #6
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

No, Kyle...Karate was brought over to Okinawa by Chinese people. Karate originally meant "Chinese Hand" then...later on...the meaning was changed to "Empty Hand". All martial arts stem from China. Shui Jiao, for instance, is the predecessor to all Oriental grappling arts such as Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, etc. Ba Gua, Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I, and other Qi Gong (internal martial arts) are styles that have influenced other styles like Aikido, Hapkido, etc. In fact, I too have been told and have read that Ueshiba studied Ba Gua Zhang in China and that's where he picked up a lot of his internal Ki techniques and stuff. I have even heard this from top ranked Aikidoka...so...I'm pretty sure it's true, you know? All the other types of styles (striking) of course stemmed from Chinese striking styles of Wushu of Kung Fu. So...pretty much everything came from China in regards to the origins of the Martial Arts. The only thing is that when these Chinese styles were taught to foreigners like Okinawans, Japanese, Koreans, Thai, etc. they were modified to fit their environment, you know? So...that's where we get Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do (which means "Way of the Tang Hand"...Tang being a Chinese emperor who was a ruthless warrior...this style however...being "Korean"), Judo, Aikido, Jujutsu, Muay Thai, etc. etc.
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Old 10-28-2005, 11:31 PM   #7
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

While I'm not trying to say even the vast majority of martial arts aren't Chinese based or influenced, it seems incorrect to say "all" martial arts came from China. There were western martial arts, for example, though, to my knowledge, they typically weren't as extensive as those in the eastern traditions.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-28-2005, 11:34 PM   #8
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Once upon a time, there evolved man (homo-sapien)... Man need food, he hunts. Hunting mean killing. Killing need martial skill. Man also need protection, protection demand martial skill. Man then needs to procreate, procreation demands the most skillful man beat his rival male. Defeating rival male needs martial skills. Martial art is pretty much a humanity development not necessary attributed to any particular civilization. However, credit must be given to the Chinese, Greeks and Indians for pioneering its cataloging and initiating its pedagogical development.

Boon.

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Old 10-29-2005, 01:27 AM   #9
Charles Hill
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
There were western martial arts, for example, though, to my knowledge, they typically weren't as extensive as those in the eastern traditions.
Hi Matthew,

I highly recommend checking out the Russian Martial Art of Systema. Very extensive and very relevent.

BTW, I recently had dinner with the editor of Hiden, the Japanese Budo, Bujutsu magazine. He told me that he met a martial arts teacher in Bejing that swears Morihei Ueshiba often visited and trained at his school many years back. The editor did say that the man was quite old and that he is not sure how reliable the teacher`s memory is.

Charles
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Old 10-29-2005, 02:19 AM   #10
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Once upon a time, there evolved man (homo-sapien)... Man need food, he hunts. Hunting mean killing. Killing need martial skill. Man also need protection, protection demand martial skill. Man then needs to procreate, procreation demands the most skillful man beat his rival male. Defeating rival male needs martial skills. Martial art is pretty much a humanity development not necessary attributed to any particular civilization. However, credit must be given to the Chinese, Greeks and Indians for pioneering its cataloging and initiating its pedagogical development.

Boon.
Agreed. Although there have been many legends and attempts to unearth the true origins of the m. arts, and even with the chinese saying of "all the m.arts in the world originated frm shaolin monastery", we still can't verify it. Particularly when the origins of wingchun, tkd, and karate alone have so many versions. But somehow looking at it, it does seem to trace back to the chinese, greeks n indians, or even ancient egyptians.
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Old 10-29-2005, 10:57 PM   #11
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Yeah...Western arts like Boxing, Fencing, Wrestling, and Pankration. That's it though. Russia isn't really in the "West". It's in Asia thus all of its Martial Arts stem from Oriental systems mixed with traditional Russian folk wrestling or something.
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Old 10-29-2005, 11:47 PM   #12
Charles Hill
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Hi Alan,

I don`t think Russia can be considered Asian, at least ethnically. The System taught by Mikhail Ryabko has as its base Christianity and the teachings of the Bible. Interestingly, Mikhail says that the source of Chinese martial arts are the teachings of the Russian bodyguards employed by Chinese emperors. This is in an interview at Aikidojournal.com. Me?, I don`t know, but it is an interesting idea.

Charles
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Old 10-30-2005, 03:55 AM   #13
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

mate it just traces back to humans eva since humans started fighting eva humans started existing they started evolving ways to fight
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:27 AM   #14
Amir Krause
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Japanese M.A. were influenced by the Chinese, there is no controversy here. But most of that influence was hundred of years ago, not directly relevant for Aikido or Judo, and even in the case of Karate, it is probably the origins of the art, not the way it had been taught a hundred years ago (the last is a guess, I know very little on Karate).

Unlike some M.A. the case of Aikido is very clear. Ueshiba Aikido is mostly Daito-ryu, Ueshiba learnt this style, it is recorded. Looking at Daito-ryu one can see the similarities with ease. Even other changes can be quite directly identified to the other Japanese M.A. Ueshiba had learnt and are recorded.

While Aikido may remind some people of Ba-Gua, that does not mean much more then finding similar solutions to similar problems.

Amir
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:45 AM   #15
markwalsh
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

"Once upon a time, there evolved man (homo-sapien)... Man need food, he hunts. Hunting mean killing. Killing need martial skill. Man also need protection, protection demand martial skill. Man then needs to procreate, procreation demands the most skillful man beat his rival male. Defeating rival male needs martial skills."

This story is dangerous and not as logical as it first sounds. Further, the evidence doesn't support it.

Consider these facts;

Humans are group hunters so their primary "weapon" is communication and planning. The spear chucking bit is the full stop at the end.

Systems involving co-operation, harmony, interdependence and group processes are an important but less obvious side of evolution.

Studies of the remains left by ancient man (and the equally vicious rival defeating women show that hunted food was not that significant in terms of calorie intake - though may have served an important ritualistic/symbolic function.

If defeating rivals through martial skill is the only mechanism for sexual selection why to Peacocks have cool tails and not talons? And if it's the only way for individuals/ species to be successful - why are humans so frail?


I'm not having a go at Nixon for portraying this - it's the dominant view in the world today- but in my opinion (after some serious study) it better reflects the way things are now (eg capitalist, competitive, individualist) and not the way nature works or the evidence of our past.

Apologies that this is off topic but it' a fundamental story that drives a lot of our martial duologue, that is [b]deeply messed up[b]. Assumptions about what is "natural" change over time to justify the BS of the era.

..............

We're all African originally, so I guess all martial arts are too
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Old 10-31-2005, 12:08 AM   #16
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

The statement that all martial arts come from China is one of those blanket statements that people like to make in order to promote their own ideas or martial art style. It is quite similar to the statement that 90% of all fights end up on the ground. There is no empirical data the supports either of this two ideas.
This is way too big a topic, covering too many thousands of years, shrouded in the mist of multilingual and cultural contexts to get anything definitive.
Hell, we cannot get any two "high ranking" aikido shihan to agree on half the stories that O Sensei told and how many martial arts, O Sensei studied. If we cannot even reach back far enough to dispel all of the conjecture about a man who died in 1969, how can we even presume to pierce the thousands of years that veil the creation of every single martial art that currently exists or that ever existed with enough certainty that we can issue such a statement.
There are people out there who are much smarter than me that can make credible arguments on either side of this issue. They have spent many long hours pouring over books and ledgers, and researching and cataloging all sorts of information.
Some say its true some say its not, I just go to practice. And right now, it matters not.
Ba Gua is a great martial art, I love to see it done, and have a great deal of respect for those that can do it well, but just because you can see similarities in Ba Gua and Aikido does not mean the arts are related. Debating this will only take time away from your practice and possibly give you a headache... But, if that's what floats your boat...go right ahead and draw a connection between Aikido and Ba Gua.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:39 AM   #17
ian
 
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

No - all martial arts do not come from china. Reconstruction and investigation into western martial arts is now taking place (which are suprising similar). Chinese culture influenced Japanese culture enormoulsy, and the feudal system ended it Japan relatively late (compared to the west), thus 'martial arts' are often associated with Japan.

What doesn't seem to have been solved is a pertinent question arising from these discussions: can the study of chinese martial arts directly benefit aikido. I'll move this on to a new thread.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-31-2005, 12:18 PM   #18
Walter Wong
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
All the other types of styles (striking) of course stemmed from Chinese striking styles of Wushu of Kung Fu.
It's a misconception that certain Chinese arts are only striking. Striking, kicking, takedowns/throws, and locks/chokes are emphasis in every Chinese style. When speaking of any Chinese Martial Art it's about both striking and grappling. Schools of Chinese Martial Arts that don't emphasize or teach the grappling aspect of a Chinese style is incomplete in their training and curricullum. I have a take down and lock for every movement in my first basic Long Fist (classical, not the modern wushu version) form.

As for the first 2 links, I found the 2nd one more interesting yes.
I guess it's tough to conclude if Aikido has any connection to any Chinese art or if it's coincidence because the human body can only move in so many ways.
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Old 10-31-2005, 01:22 PM   #19
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Walter Wong asked:
>Is there information held back for any reason?

No. Ueshiba had some adventures in China, but he never, apparently, had any interaction with Chinese MA folks during those adventures, unless it was in the process of either a: slapping the crap out of the locals or b: getting the crap slapped out of him by the locals.

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Old 10-31-2005, 07:04 PM   #20
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Kung-Fu, like Walter says, encompasses everything.

I remember the first Gung-Fu instructor I had. I told him I was a Black Belt in Jujitsu and he asked me to show him some moves.

He would then show me the moves the Chinese way. Both ways were effective, but it was interesting to me to see grappling techniques or Chin Na in the Chinese arts. Back tne I had assumed Gung-Fu was all fancy kicks and fancy punches.

My point that each art stemmed from China was only to say that internal arts like Aikido have long exhisted. I'm not taking away from Ueshiba, no one can, but there are similarities in all arts if you look for them. Like all arts, people do not usually just wake up one day and say, "I have discovered the Dim Mak!"

They research and learn and take from all around them and then create their own art from their years of experience and searching.

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Old 10-31-2005, 09:19 PM   #21
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Hey, Walter!
Sorry that you misunderstood what I said about Chinese striking arts. I didn't mean that Chinese arts are only striking...I know they're not because I've practiced Hun Gar, Ba Gua, and as my screen name implies...San Shou! So...I have a decent knowledge of Chinese arts and I know the amazing grappling techniques they have....though...I'm sure you'd kick the crap out of me anyday...do you know that San Shou kickboxer...I know his name is Alex but I forgot his last name...he's really good and he's from around your area?
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Old 11-01-2005, 08:15 AM   #22
Walter Wong
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Oh, sorry Alan. I misunderstood you regarding Chinese arts and striking. I also apologize cause I didn't noticed the SanShou in your screenname. I only looked at your real name Alan Rodrigues above your screenname.

I'm not aware of who Alex is. I'm not very good with too many fight competitor names. I just know a few from San Shou, UFC and Pride type competitions. I know a couple San Shou fighters name Al and Marvin from Boston San Shou under Jason Yee.

I hope no one thought I was trying to take anything away from Ueshiba Sensei. I too think he is awesome. I was curious if he any connection to Chinese arts. By the sounds of it, it just seems the similarities are coincidence. Much like someone stated earlier of Greco Roman wrestling and Judo similarities but didn't influence each other and had no connection.
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:42 PM   #23
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Walter,
I don't know why I said Alex...I meant Jason Yee...what the heck is wrong with me!? LOL! I forgot his name completely and thought his name was Alex...the funny thing is that I do that ALL the time...there's got be some sort of remedy for that, lol. Anywho...yeah...Jason Yee...he's mad sweet! I like Cung Le though. From what I've heard and read, Ueshiba studied Ba Gua Zhang...but...of course...no one knows for sure...that's just what I've been told. However...the Martial Arts in Asia for the most part all come from Chinese origins...no one can really argue that and get away with it, you know what I mean? Like all the Grappling arts in Korea and Japan for the most part were derived from Shui Jiao which is Mongolian/Chinese wrestling and the oldest form of Chinese Kung Fu around. Anywho...Ueshiba was sweet and I don't think you nor I nor anyone else on this site is taking anything away from him, you know what I mean?
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:10 AM   #24
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
Historians say that all martial arts stem from China in one way or another..
Which historians?

Some martial arts come form China, some Japanese arts are influenced to some degree by Chinese stsyems. Others have nothing to do with China or Japan whatsoever.

AIkido is pretty uniquely Japanese, stemming from Daito Ryu jujutsu with minor influences from a couple of other Japanese ryuha.

When Ueshiba was journeying in China the first time, he was a soldier, enlisted, basically under tight control and painting rocks or rearranging holes as soldiers have always done when they weren't shooting at things.

The second time, he wasn't seeking out Chinese instructors, he was trying to conquer part of it to help create an Omoto Kyo paradise on earth.

The Chinese influence of aikido is pretty much limited to some writings and concepts that drifted in through Japanese classical literature.

A more interesting question might be: What influence did the Japanese occupation of Chine (and Korea for that matter) have on the indigineous martial arts?

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Old 11-02-2005, 01:11 PM   #25
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Re: Ueshiba Sensei studied Chinese arts?

I don't think ALL martial arts come from China that is not correct. If you really believed that logic, then you would have to say "all martial arts came from india" since Boddiharma brought a "system of exercises" to the shaolin monks.

Every organized society has developed some form of martial arts because they all ended up warring at some point.

What the eastern countries such as India, China, and Japan did was connect it to religion, spirituality, and philosophy that set what they did apart from everyone else. Their practices I believe become more refined because of the "rules" of their societies based on their culture. Both China and Japan's cultures encouraged the development of martial arts that we know today.

In the west martial arts became something quite different, an efficient way to vanquish your foe.

We in the west have romanticized eastern arts and when you hear the term "martial art" you think of guys in ninja costumes or white pajamas. Martial arts are much broader in scope than that. They would include handguns and other strategies for control and restraint.

What is important about the eastern arts from china and japan is the philosophical base they exploited into the Tao, Do, or Budo in the case of japanese arts of Judo, Karatedo, and AIkido.

Many people in the west think they study martial arts for "self defense", and "fighting skills" , but if we were to really be honest and put aside all the emotions about getting jumped in an alley by the proverbial 300lb mugger, we would see it is quite a waste of time to study empty hand arts for that reason!

Anyway, look around you, there are many more martial arts out there than you see or think, many were developed without even knowing China exisited.
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