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Old 05-09-2001, 08:13 AM   #1
ian
 
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Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
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routines

At one dojo I used to train in a few years ago we used to have a set of techniques we would run through i.e. we would do ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, shiho-nage, tenchi-nage, irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi one technique after another, on each side. Once one person had gone through this their partner would try.

In a way it is a bit like a formalised one man randori.

I have decided to incorporate this into my own instruction (although I'm going to do a set of 8 pins, and a set of 8 throws), mainly to formalise the names in peoples heads.

There are certain advantages and disavantages to this. I know myself that when I go to do randori I often go through this set of techniques sub-conciously.

However, does anyone else do this (instructor or taught it) and do they feel it is beneficial or detrimental?

Ian
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Old 05-09-2001, 09:46 AM   #2
akiy
 
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You might want to take a look at the "jyu nana hon no kata" (17 step kata) that's taught at dojo which teach Tomiki and Jiyushinkan aikido. It's seemed to me that these folks use the kata as a set of building blocks for their aikido.

Chuck and Peter, can you give us your thoughts on this?

-- Jun

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Old 05-09-2001, 11:29 AM   #3
Jon C Strauss
Dojo: Rocky Mountain Ki Society
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Ki Symbol Re: routines

Quote:
Originally posted by ian
At one dojo I used to train in a few years ago we used to have a set of techniques we would run through i.e. we would do ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, shiho-nage, tenchi-nage, irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi one technique after another, on each side. Once one person had gone through this their partner would try.

<snip>

However, does anyone else do this (instructor or taught it) and do they feel it is beneficial or detrimental?

Ian
Howdy,

We often begin our intermediate classes with nage picking one attack (which all the ukes have to use) and then nage has to do five basic arts without any kind of repetition (i.e. if you do ikkyo you can't do another pinning art, if you do zenpou, you can't do another kind of zenpou). After all five arts have been done (both sides, left/right for 10 total) The next nage steps up and chooses a different attack.

While patterns can develop: ikkyo, kotegaeshi, shihonage, kokyunage, kaitenage, the whole thing still feels pretty random. We go in rank order so if class is big, the last few nages have to pick an odd attack (heh heh).

Peace,
JCS
RMKS at CSU

I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him.
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Old 05-09-2001, 08:57 PM   #4
Chuck Clark
 
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Learning a technique based teaching system seems to me to be like learning to be a musician by learning a bunch of songs instead of the full syllabus of music.

Learning principals and basic fundamentals through well developed learning sets (kata) and exercises have always seemed the best way to learn for me.

By learning kihon dosa and kihon no kata and internalizing them, we become able to intuitively create variations that fit what's necessary in the moment. Then we can always return to the kata as a teaching tool and experimental base for expanding our knowledge.

Randori then teaches us to use our creativity in random and (often) surprising ways.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 05-10-2001, 06:41 AM   #5
ian
 
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Many thanks for replies - I should have thought of Tomiki aikido - I've not actually done any so I'd not thought. I think one of the biggest problems for beginners is formalising the techniques, as an aid to memory. I think you're right in that once this is done it is probably easier then developing the sponteneity.

Ian
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Old 05-10-2001, 08:24 AM   #6
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
You might want to take a look at the "jyu nana hon no kata" (17 step kata) that's taught at dojo which teach Tomiki and Jiyushinkan aikido. It's seemed to me that these folks use the kata as a set of building blocks for their aikido.

Jun
Hi Jun;

Not just building blocks although the Junanahon coupled with the Koryu no Kata touches on pretty much all there is in Aikido. By practicing the kata extensively, the idea is you bring all your Aikido to a higher level.

The Junanahon have a kihon version and a tanto version but there are also many official variations based on different attacks and then we get into experimentation and what happens during randori where things become unpredicatable.

The best way to look at the Junanhon is a series of ever increasing circles where you repeatedly return to the center.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-10-2001, 08:51 AM   #7
andrew
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My first teacher once did a few kihon-gi classes in the early mornings. He was pretty strict about how we went about it, there was no talking allowed at all, and it was all very basic (ikkyo-yonkyo). I only made the first class, but I learned loads. The thing about that kind of class is a lot of stuff can suddenly fall into place when you're taking it nice and easy, or at least that's how I found it.
How well this would've worked if we'd done it all the time, I don't know.

andrew
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Old 05-30-2001, 05:25 AM   #8
ian
 
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Many thanks every one - I've been doing it for several weeks now and everyone seems to think it is great for formalising the techniques and, although this may be a bad point. I think it is actually beneficial 'cos people are getting a much larger range of techniques to work with from which they can gradually see the relationships between them and finally see that there are not strict differences between techniques.

The only thing is, I've been been teaching two versions of ikkyo in a set as ikkyo (where you go straight in before they have chance to exert downward force) and gokyo (often called ikkyo, but in reality it is gokyo; where you allow the strike to occur, whilst moving to the inside and cutting it down with your right hand (assuming right hand attack) then bring it back towards uke's head i.e. you end up with uke's wrist being grabbed with your hand the other way around).

Do you think this is too complicated?

Also, I know Tomiki did a lot of research into the techniques, and from looking at the 17 step kata you lot use it is obvious he was good at seeing the relationships between techniques. Has he written anything useful on this (I think I'll start a new thread on this aspect).

Ian
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