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Old 05-30-2001, 01:11 AM   #1
Saku
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Wink One more thought on effectiveness

Hi,

I just wanted to see what kind of thoughts my way of thinking brings out of you all.

My aikido seems to be working really effectively and well. You see, there are over 5 billion people in the whole world that I have NOT been hurting, beating, mutilating, killing, torturing, (fill in other word for abuse).

Now isn't that something! Effectivness of aikido really amazes me since I have taken only few steps along the long path.

Cheers,
Saku

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Old 05-30-2001, 09:24 AM   #2
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Re: One more thought on effectiveness

Well... er... in this world I don't think I've ever hurt anyone physically, even before taking aikido, but sad to say I have hurt the hearts of quite a few people with my words.

I mean I don't verbally abuse anyone, but there have been those few rare times when a slip of the toungue can hurt a person a hundred times more than a punch can.

My 2 cents.

--- "Sit up straight!", my sensei
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Old 05-30-2001, 11:29 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by ahdumb
I mean I don't verbally abuse anyone, but there have been those few rare times when a slip of the toungue can hurt a person a hundred times more than a punch can.
A good punch can break soneone's neck and kill them. If you can kill 100 people with your tongue...I won't argue with you
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Old 05-30-2001, 11:50 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
A good punch can break soneone's neck and kill them. If you can kill 100 people with your tongue...I won't argue with you
Although it's true that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but word will never hurt me," the pain endured through words is very real. Many kids in Japan have even committed suicide due to bullying or "ijime" that goes on there.

I remember George Leonard sensei asking during one of his classes how many of us were injured during childhood and pretty much all of us raised our hands. He then asked how many of us still felt the pain of that injury and all hands went down. He then asked how many of us were hurt through words as a child and all of us raised our hands. He then asked how many of us still felt the pain we felt through the words and pretty much all of the hands stayed up...

-- Jun

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Old 05-30-2001, 01:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
I remember George Leonard sensei asking during one of his classes how many of us were injured during childhood and pretty much all of us raised our hands. He then asked how many of us still felt the pain of that injury and all hands went down. He then asked how many of us were hurt through words as a child and all of us raised our hands. He then asked how many of us still felt the pain we felt through the words and pretty much all of the hands stayed up...
We are all very lucky people. We might have been born in a country where rebel militias chop off civilians' arms and legs, just because they can. Any of these victims would love to trade their problems for my bourgeois emotional trauma, I'm quite sure.

For reasons such as this, I prefer to use physical combat as my chief standard of martial art effectiveness. Anything else is frosting on the cake.
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Old 05-30-2001, 02:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
For reasons such as this, I prefer to use physical combat as my chief standard of martial art effectiveness. Anything else is frosting on the cake.
I wasn't talking about what is my "standard" of martial arts effectiveness but was merely responding to your implication that verbal attacks did not amount to much.

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Old 05-30-2001, 03:25 PM   #7
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...the implied point being that, if my ability to spare someone's feelings indicates the effectiveness of my Aikido, then my Aikido is no better then my grandmother's, and I am a chump for investing so much time, effort, and money in training. If I have no other standard, then any training is good training; I may as well promote myself to 9th dan, and twirl around in a tutu emitting periodic kiai
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Old 05-30-2001, 04:04 PM   #8
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True. Don't get me wrong -- I continue training in aikido to make my aikido more physically and martially effective, too. "Everything else" comes as a byproduct of that training.

However, would you say that someone who isn't training with such effectiveness primarily in mind that isn't studying aikido?

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Old 05-30-2001, 05:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
However, would you say that someone who isn't training with such effectiveness primarily in mind that isn't studying aikido?
I would say that it doesn't matter whether or not you want it, but it matters whether or not you get it.
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Old 06-01-2001, 11:37 AM   #10
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Wars have been started just by a few words. i.e racism. Heck being a black Asian I've faced racism before. It sucks.

If you want to talk about standards, consider this: among the 7 martial arts clubs in my school, my Aikido club has no trophies or awards to show off at school so students tend to look down on us. It seems as if we have a lousy standard.

However we've got the most number of members in all of the clubs. Plus we've never dirtied the dojo with our blood, unlike the other clubs.

Saku is right. Aikido really is amazingly effective.






Last edited by ahdumb : 06-01-2001 at 11:42 AM.

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Old 06-01-2001, 01:12 PM   #11
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Wars have been started just by a few words. i.e racism. Heck being a black Asian I've faced racism before. It sucks.

War sucks for both sides, but it *really* sucks for the losing side. That is, the side with less martial ability.

If you want to talk about standards, consider this: among the 7 martial arts clubs in my school, my Aikido club has no trophies or awards to show off at school so students tend to look down on us. It seems as if we have a lousy standard.

However we've got the most number of members in all of the clubs. Plus we've never dirtied the dojo with our blood, unlike the other clubs.


I never denied the value of a social club, and I never even mentioned trophies.

What is the difference between an Aikido club and a dance club? And I'm not talking about trivialities here, like the uniform or the terminology, I talking about the real substance of the practice. Because, if you train in the Aikido club and get the same results as you would in the dance club, why spend $70 on a dogi? That's the standard I'm talking about. And I'm not accusing you personally of malpractice, I just want to emphasize that there must be reasons why we do what we do. And "tradition" is *not* a good reason.
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Old 06-05-2001, 05:50 AM   #12
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Hi Chris,

I noticed that you have a very confrontational approach to situations. I agree that war is bad for both 'sides', and usually worse for the losing 'side' but really we need to talk about individuals. I have as much sympathy for the 'winners' who suffered and dies as well as the 'losers' who suffered and dies during war.

If there is one thing aikido has taught me, it is that winning is not about winning a fight, being stronger or being more successful but about doing what you think is right. The physical aspect of my aikido helps me to do that - whether this is fighting or walking away. However the psychological aspect of aikido helps me to understand and emphathise with the 'enemy' and to realise that many of my problems come from an inability to find solutions which both me and my 'opponent' are happy with. As Ueshiba said; aikdio isn't to change others, but ot change ourselves.

Ian

P.S. there are not many high grades in our club so at the moment you may not see much difference in them and a dance club. However I would be suprised to find the same level of honour, intensity, commitment, sincerity and loyalty as you would find in aikido. I wouldn't deny that aikido is and should be primarily a self-defence. However combat requires far more than a series of techniques and a physically strong body.

Last edited by ian : 06-05-2001 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 06-05-2001, 07:24 AM   #13
Saku
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Hi all,

To a question
"What is the difference between an Aikido club and a dance club? "

In dancing both partners try to co-operate i.e. one leads and the other one tries to follow. The force (or ki if you will) for leading comes from the one leading. In aikido however the other party does not know "how to dance" and "is not willing or capable to learn how to dance" and also the force for leading comes from the attacker, not from the one leading.

So I guess in a dance club in the beginning if / when your partner cannot dance, I would say that there is not much of a difference between dancing and aikido. But further on the difference is obvious.

BR,
Saku

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Old 06-05-2001, 08:11 AM   #14
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After reading the thread "Instructors dating students" in the "Anonymous" forum, I think there is a connection between Aikido and dancing. Afterall, some forms of dancing have been described as a vertical expression of a horizontal desire.

Jim23

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Old 06-05-2001, 02:28 PM   #15
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Confrontational? I'm just trying to move the discussion forward. If you think my writing is inflammatory now, you should have seen it before I initiated my liberal use of smiley faces.

I've seen people with years of experience and no skill, simply because they did not train correctly. We must not emulate those people! Even if they appear to be honorable, committed, and loyal people! They are still space cadets!
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Old 06-05-2001, 02:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
... why spend $70 on a dogi?
I personally wear my dogi under my clothes on really cold days. Also, that way, I can also change pretty quickly in the nearest phone booth.

Jim23

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Old 06-06-2001, 03:51 AM   #17
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Yep, I certainly agree with your view, Chris, that many people train in Aikido and do not develop effective self-defence skills. Probably true of a lot of martial arts. Definately the repsonsibility of the trainee to constantly question themselves. However I have had the experience of thinking someone was terrible at aikido because I didn't understand what they were doing, whereas a few years later it made much more sense. A thorny problem that we'll never get 'round.

P.S. My apologies if I sounded like a big whinger.

Ian
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Old 06-06-2001, 06:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by ian
However I have had the experience of thinking someone was terrible at aikido because I didn't understand what they were doing,
I read an interview with Christian Tissier where he talked about arriving at hombu, seeing Kissomaru teaching for the first time, and thought "he's doing that irimi nage all wrong."

Saku- when I take ukemi I try to follow, for my own safety and because it's the best way to learn, and because I won't have the opportunity to reverse techniques if I don't follow. But dont take just my word for it.... http://gargas.biomedicale.univ-paris...ts/ukemi1.html

andrew
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Old 06-06-2001, 06:46 AM   #19
Saku
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Hi Andrew,

"Saku- when I take ukemi I try to follow, for my own safety and
because it's the best way to learn, and because I won't have the
opportunity to reverse techniques if I don't follow."

Yes, You know that, I know that... but the average Joe on the street probably does not. To be able to perform aikido SAFELY against an attacker who does not know how to protect him/herself is the challenge, don't you think?

BR,
Saku

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Old 06-06-2001, 08:20 AM   #20
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Cold Days Jim??

Jim

I thought you were in Florida. You don't get cold days down there.

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...then again, that's just me.
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Old 06-06-2001, 11:40 AM   #21
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Florida?

The last time I was there (near Coral Gables), I asked this gas station attendant if there was a hotel close by. His answer was "No sir, the hotel ... it's not close, it's open".

Bocca/Deerfield were nice though.

Jim23

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Old 06-06-2001, 12:33 PM   #22
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However I have had the experience of thinking someone was terrible at aikido because I didn't understand what they were doing, whereas a few years later it made much more sense. A thorny problem that we'll never get 'round.

P.S. My apologies if I sounded like a big whinger.


If you're the biggest whinger I meet today, it will be a good day.

Seriously though, I had a similar problem, until I changed the question from:

Did this technique fit today's arbitrary definition of "harmony"?

to:

Did I feel compelled to go down?

If we accept the premise that Aikido works, and if a particular execution of a technique has no lead, no control, and bad position, we MUST conclude that it was a terrible execution of the technique. It's not a question of style, or of opinion!

I keep beating this horse, but it just won't die!
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Old 06-06-2001, 05:25 PM   #23
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It's a lot like dancing....

...except in dancing, when your partner falls its a BAD thing...

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Old 06-07-2001, 11:33 AM   #24
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Re: One more thought on effectiveness

Quote:
Originally posted by Saku
My aikido seems to be working really effectively and well. You see, there are over 5 billion people in the whole world that I have NOT been hurting, beating, mutilating, killing, torturing, (fill in other word for abuse).
The second I read this I thought about pollution. It's a great thing if you can live a life without harming anyone, but pollution hurts everyone. It's a hard thing for most to avoid these days.

In regard to the rest of the post. For me, aikido is about bringing myself into complete harmony. Technique matters little with this, although I do strive for good technique. By testing yourself physically in the dojo, you can see/feel the harmony(or lack of it) within. I look forward to the day when I can act quickly and effectively without a single conscience thought.

-Jase

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Old 06-08-2001, 06:50 AM   #25
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Hi Chris,

just to maintain this feeling of several threads all going on at the same time I'll respond to your last reply.

I think there are basic concepts which have to be obeyed to get 'good' aikido. However I think one of the hardest things to develop is good timing and non-use of force. (I think these go together 'cos if the timing isn't right the 'non-use of force' is just dancing round). I started off in a more severe style with lots of throws and pins from stationary - and I think that benefitted me enormously. I think often this feels powerful for beginners and looks really effective, as well as helping develop some basic principles. However I realised that if trying to force a technique on in reality generally gets your opponent to lock up and focus on that part you are trying to force on.

Therefore I'm now trying to develop better timing and trying to minimise the force on uke (as well as trying to be more open in my focus so I don't try and do 'a technique' but instead see uke's weaknesses). However, often when you start trying to develop this aspect you have to start in a slow 'dance' to enable the correct movement to be established.

However, to me, it is the progression from this 'dance' to real blending that is essential, but not always practised (and is probably the point you are making). When I was thrown by Yamada sensei (who is not weak by any means) the sensation was that he had complete control over my body, but at no point was he forcing me. I've often compared it to someone floating in space whilst someone else who is fixed to a surface spins them round. There is little force and there is little that can be done to resist it. But! I would also say that strong basics from stationary positions are also essential at the early stages as in real situations things do go wrong.


Ian
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