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Old 11-08-2005, 12:19 PM   #26
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
O'sensei learned other stuff prior to Daito ryu aikijutsu, and I think that's what the poster was referring to. Many of our empty handed techniques are derived from kenjutsu and yarijutsu movements. O'sensei took movements that were designed to maim, kill, poke, stab, slice and dice and (admittedly with a lot of tinkering) adapted them to defensive unarmed techniques. Cool stuff.
Yes, Mr. Davis you are correct. Thank you.

Mr. Tisdale,

I was just speaking in general. Maybe, I should have said Japanese feudal techniques of war, both empty handed and of weaponry. It wasn't my intention to create a fuss, I was not aware that what I had said would have been a point of contention and taken as you indicated spurring another discussion. I apologize for not being aware of it.


Anat Amitay,

Thanks for the reply. I see your point. We live in a modern age where Fidel piety means different things to different peoples then in Japan say during Osensei's childhood. This may be wrong of me, but if you are taking Aikido seriously like the daughter then conflicting with parents in this type of decision (arguably) might go against the spirit of Aikido. I am not speaking from fanatical position where extremism is the norm. Rather, that after training in Aikido it should be apparent that Fidel piety is a part of training. Aikido is after all a life style. Aikido, as life style / art, has many Japanese cultural components in it, it is not purely a technically mechanical exercise; there has to be to some degree practice of other Japanes cultural practices that makes up Aikido beyond mat etiquette. I think there is a fundemental symbolism between Sensei and parent. If you obey/obeyed your parents you will follow instruction and respect the figure of the Sensei, mirroring the same type of thing between school teacher and parent. IMO. That is where I was coming from, FWIW.

In respect.
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Old 11-08-2005, 01:39 PM   #27
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Aikido injuries

So what does "Fidel piety" mean? As for "the daughter going against her parents", that's her business . I certainly don't have my kid enrolled in aikido to give me leverage on her behavior. I can't image a medical student submitting to that kind of over controlling behavior.

Mark
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Old 11-08-2005, 01:51 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
Mr. Tisdale,

I was just speaking in general. Maybe, I should have said Japanese feudal techniques of war, both empty handed and of weaponry. It wasn't my intention to create a fuss, I was not aware that what I had said would have been a point of contention and taken as you indicated spurring another discussion. I apologize for not being aware of it.
Ron is just fine, Mr Tisdale is my Dad!

I don't see any fuss, I just was making a point. No need at all to appologize.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-08-2005, 01:55 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido injuries

I believe he meant Filial Piety, as in:

fil·i·al (fl-l)
adj.

Relating to the relationship of offspring to parents.
In genetics, relating to a generation or the sequence of generations following the parental generation.

The state or quality of being pious, especially:
Religious devotion and reverence to God.
Devotion and reverence to parents and family: filial piety.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-08-2005, 02:07 PM   #30
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Aikido injuries

Yeah, that was my guess too. I really couldn't tell for sure.
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Old 11-08-2005, 02:46 PM   #31
Fred Little
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Re: Aikido injuries

Ah....filial piety!

One of the classic neo-Confucian tales of filial piety formerly widely circulated in China and Japan told -- with great approval -- the heartwarming story of a girl so virtuous and devoted to her impoverished parents that she sold herself into prostitution to pay for their burial expenses.

Closer to home, looking to the Founder of Aikido, or his teachers, or his students as guides to appropriate social conduct in 21st Century America is not a terribly productive pursuit, though I suppose we build our justifications for what we've already decided is right out of what straw and mud we have at hand.

Fred Little
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Old 11-08-2005, 02:57 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido injuries

Hi Fred,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-08-2005, 03:48 PM   #33
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi James,

I have to disagree that the unarmed techniques in aikido are from anything other than Daito ryu. I have yet to see any substantive proof for that assertion. While Ueshiba Sensei certainly trained in other arts for relatively short periods of time, researchers, scholars, budoka in general have so far failed to show any substantive connection to those arts in relation to our empty hand techniques. Of course, I try to remain open to anything new that comes out...if you have some hard evidence of this, I'd love to see it.

Best,
Ron
Where did Daito ryu get its unarmed techniques from...?

Maybe I'm the only guy that sees this, but...

Sankyo is similar to the kenjutsu stance hasso no kamae, the difference being that you hold an arm instead of a sword. When you perform your projection from sankyo, you extend your hands and bring them back to your center, like cutting with a bokken.

Imagine being a swordsman and performing mune tsuki with your weapon into your enemy's belly. To worsen the wound and free the weapon, you twist the blade ninety degrees and step through, cutting all the way across their midsection. Then, holding the sword in jodan no kamae (on top of your head) you turn 180 degrees before bringing a cut straight down, beheading your adversary (who has crumpled forward after being disemboweled)...

Now imagine the same movement, only instead of a sword you hold uke's wrist. With movement designed to kill, you've actually performed a throw...

Shiho Nage.

It may be BS to some, but I SEE this stuff when I perform technique. Let your imagination do its thing during solo practice. Perform the throws you know and imagine a sword, spear, or staff in your hand. Cool stuff.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-08-2005, 04:46 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido injuries

So, special appearance, if a parent tells their child not to do aikido and the child obeys the parent how can that possibly be in keeping with 'the spirit of Aikido' if as a result the child never learns any Aikido? If you have to learn aikido to know about this supposed FILIAL duty (which I've certainly never heard anything about during my training!!) then it all starts to become a bit circular.

IMHO, blind obedience to anyone, Sensei, parents, friends, whoever, is a bad idea and certainly not in keeping with the aikido I've been learning. Respect, yes - unthinking obeisance, no.
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:37 PM   #35
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Re: Aikido injuries

Hi all,

Just to get things cleared so that you guys can get back on track with my thread:

Yes, I'm a caring parent and I take a keen interest in my children's pursues but I would not stand in their way unless the pursues are extremely detrimental to their wellbeing - drugs for example. My own parents had granted much freedom during my youth and I have done pretty much and enjoyed all the youthful pursues (except drugs) including martial sports.

It has been my daughter's lifelong ambition to become a doctor and surgeon. She has worked very hard to come this far. Being the father's daughter, she also loves sports and outdoor pursues - she loves life just like me. She trusts herself and she trusts her sensei and dojo mates. But, trust can be abused just like those boys who have been viciously injured by an egotistic instructor.

Filial piety is not an issue here. Risk assessment is part of her lifelong education.

doc2b
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:37 AM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Where did Daito ryu get its unarmed techniques from...?
From the sword that Sogaku Takeda Sensei studied. He was first and foremost a swordsman, and on the advice of a trusted counselor, decided to focus on the empty hand skills because of the changing times.

Snipping rather obvious discussion on riai...

Quote:
Now imagine the same movement, only instead of a sword you hold uke's wrist. With movement designed to kill, you've actually performed a throw...

Shiho Nage.
No arguement there, the techniques come from the sword.

Quote:
It may be BS to some, but I SEE this stuff when I perform technique. Let your imagination do its thing during solo practice. Perform the throws you know and imagine a sword, spear, or staff in your hand. Cool stuff.
The problem is, this is not what was originally suggested...it was mixed in with hyperbole about the techniques themselves, and some historical implications which don't stand up to scrutiny, specifically:

Quote:
O'sensei learned other stuff prior to Daito ryu aikijutsu, and I think that's what the poster was referring to.
My contention is that the 'other stuff' that Ueshiba studied is insignificant. The relationship between kenjustsu and aikido's empty hand waza comes from Daito ryu, and Sogaku Takeda and **his** sword experience...not from Ueshiba's earlier studies.

Quote:
Many of our empty handed techniques are derived from kenjutsu and yarijutsu movements.
Kenjutsu sure...specifically Ono ha Itto ryu in many cases (at least as far as Daito ryu is concerned).. In other cases, other classical ryu studied by Ueshiba's students were borrowed from. Yarijutsu? Do you mean sojutsu? (As far as I know, the term yarijutsu isn't really used that much...but I'm frankly not sure. Jun? any info on that?) There is a great deal of debate about that (specifically the Hozoin ryu connection, or lack there of). I suggest reading some of Meik Skoss's posts on fa.iaido. You'll get a much better frame of reference from that.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-09-2005, 10:26 AM   #37
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hmm, aikido waza comes from Daito ryu waza, and I've never known anyone that was killed or maimed practicing Daito ryu waza...Maybe they are out there though, and I just haven't heard about it.
I don't know if he used Daito ryu techniques specifically, but Sokaku Takeda maimed and killed a few people in his time!

As for aikido techniques not being used to maim or kill...
When a concrete surface is introduced, things can get pretty cruddy for someone being thrown. (or if they're thrown over the side of a building's roof) Many of us also know that limbs could be severely hurt if we applied a little more torque just a little bit faster...

It really is all about the intent. I think that Doc2B's daughter should train in aikido, but my opinion is based on my life experiences, not hers. Also in my opinion, she should avoid training with an instructor that's too rough. If his income were dependent upon the well being of his students, perhaps he would treat their bodies with more respect.

There are good instructors out there. I've trained with a few. Don't let one jerk stop someone from learning aikido! There are risks involved with aikido training just as much as there are in petting an animal. Hand injury could result in either!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-09-2005, 10:42 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
I've never known anyone that was killed or maimed practicing Daito ryu waza.
Note that we are not talking about self defense, we are not talking about fighting, we are talking about keiko / training / practice. The jump you just made is a very good example of the hyperbole I mentioned earlier.

Best,
Ron (context, context, context)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-09-2005, 11:08 AM   #39
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Note that we are not talking about self defense, we are not talking about fighting, we are talking about keiko / training / practice. The jump you just made is a very good example of the hyperbole I mentioned earlier.

Best,
Ron (context, context, context)
Sorry, Ron. I work in a physician's office, and I equate the word PRACTICE with working or doing. I didn't mean to jump.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-09-2005, 01:20 PM   #40
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Re: Aikido injuries

Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
Ah....filial piety!

One of the classic neo-Confucian tales of filial piety -- a girl so virtuous and devoted to her impoverished parents sold herself into prostitution to pay for their burial expenses.

Closer to home, looking to the Founder of Aikido, or his teachers, or his students as guides to appropriate social conduct in 21st Century America is not a terribly productive pursuit, though I suppose we build our justifications for what we've already decided is right out of what straw and mud we have at hand.

Fred Little
Pls, allow me to apologize for the gross mispelling of filial as Fidel previously. I don't mean to confuse anyone.

I heard, don't know if it is true, but during the Vet Nam war, many young woman sold themselves for sex to survive. I hear in young Filipinas and other young woman in improverished countries sell themselves for sex to survive. Even worse in some countries the families force their daughters into selling sex to eat. Horrible. With all the issues the US has am sure glad that isn't an option as it in those other countries.

Speaking of the elderly parents, I was told once there was a town in Japan as some time that pushed their parents off a cliff when the got to a certain age, as caring for them was a burned on the children. Boy, I am glad that doesn't happen anymore in Japan, if it did. I guess now in both countries they push the elderly to the side. There is a lack of parental care and respect. Which reminds me of a old movie that dealt with that problem amoung many in Japanese society, it was called something like "Des ka den" (?) by Kurasawa. There is also the Chinese made movie called "Pushing Hands" it deals with how off-spring deal with the elderly.

Of course I wasn't going to such an externme that say so many people splitting hairs. But, consider this. You are in a society that doesn't have medicare, retirement, and all the other things in most modern societies that function for all of us when we get old. Basically, you as a parent are dependent on your childern for you survival and quality of life until you die. What a terrible situation to be in when your family doesn't take care of you. You end up in the street at say 70 years old and you are too old and weak to contribute to society, yet, not on your death bed, you face the harsh realities of trying to survive. All the well knowing no one will help you, no one cares, and you will die from exposure to the elements, starvation or worse. Or you instill in your kids to care for you until you die. You insure, by raising your kids, that they are grateful, and caring and will return in kind your best insterest- if where a good and caring parent. That way you will not die in the street like an abandoned animal in misery. Who wants to die that way?

Well, of course when I mentioned filial piety it was in context of today and modern society. Respect for parents is more accurate if people really require such precise accuracy. For those of us who have raised kids we know the importance of respect a child must have for parents- here we are pointing to good adn caring parents of today- as it is carried on to others in society, such as teachers, and others. To be more detailed, here is where Aikido comes in. Aikido, I would think being a Japanese martial art and Osensei having his students respect him, includes respect for the Sensei. As a Sensei is a teacher. How far you want to go in terms of respect is a personal decision. My reference was that if the daughter trained in Aikido and Aikido has that element to ( what ever degree) of filial piety, then do her practice or training would not take her father's concern lightly. I would expect a snot nose teenager in rebellion mode ( often not know what their are rebelling for) to shrug off any parental advisement. Clearly, this woman ( the daughter ) is beyond that stage and has a mature relationship with her parents. But I could be wrong, she could be a teenager, but I dont' think so. Therefore, even in Western society filial piety does exist regardless if we see it our not. How sad would society be if we mocked filial piety.
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Old 11-09-2005, 01:31 PM   #41
"Speical Appearence"
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Re: Aikido injuries

Opps....sorry about not spell checking prior to my posting. I hit the wrong button. I have a limited amount of time to compose, therefore, I write as I respond, and eat. I have a short time for lunch. It is evident I am unable to do extensive proofing or write a draft prior to posting. I am reposting with spelling corrections. Thank you for your understanding.

________________________________

Pls, allow me to apologize for the gross misspelling of filial as Fidel previously. I don't mean to confuse anyone.

I heard, don't know if it is true, but during the Vet Nam war, many young woman sold themselves for sex to survive. I hear in young Filipinas and other young woman in impoverished countries sell themselves for sex to survive. Even worse in some countries the families force their daughters into selling sex to eat. Horrible. With all the issues the US has am sure glad that isn't an option as it in those other countries.

Speaking of the elderly parents, I was told once there was a town in Japan as some time that pushed their parents off a cliff when the got to a certain age, as caring for them was a burned on the children. Boy, I am glad that doesn't happen anymore in Japan, if it did. I guess now in both countries they push the elderly to the side. There is a lack of parental care and respect. Which reminds me of a old movie that dealt with that problem among many in Japanese society, it was called something like "Des ka den" (?) by Kurosawa. There is also the Chinese made movie called "Pushing Hands" it deals with how off-spring deal with their elderly parents.

Of course, I wasn't going to such an extreme that say so many people splitting hairs. But, consider this. You are in a society that doesn't have Medicare, retirement, and all the other things in most modern societies that function for all of us when we get old. Basically, you as a parent are dependent on your children for you survival and quality of life until you die. What a terrible situation to be in when your family doesn't take care of you. You end up in the street at say 70 years old and you are too old and weak to contribute to society, yet, not on your death bed, you face the harsh realities of trying to survive. All the well knowing no one will help you, no one cares, and you will die from exposure to the elements, starvation or worse. Or you instill in your kids to care for you until you die. You insure, by raising your kids, that they are grateful, and caring and will return in kind your best interest- if where a good and caring parent. That way you will not die in the street like an abandoned animal in misery. Who wants to die that way?

Well, of course, when I mentioned filial piety it was in context of today and modern Western society, since the father and daughter are from the west. Respect for parents is more accurate if people really require such precise accuracy. For those of us who have raised kids we know the importance of respect a child must have for parents- here we are pointing to good and caring parents of today- as it is carried on to others in society, such as teachers, and others. To be more detailed, here is where Aikido comes in. Aikido, I would think being a Japanese martial art and Osensei having his students respect him, includes respect for the Sensei. As a Sensei is a teacher. How far you want to go in terms of respect is a personal decision. My reference was that if the daughter trained in Aikido and Aikido has that element to ( what ever degree) of filial piety, then do her practice or training would not take her father's concern lightly. I would expect a snot nose teenager in rebellion mode ( often not know what their are rebelling for) to shrug off any parental advisement. Clearly, this woman ( the daughter ) is beyond that stage and has a mature relationship with her parents. But I could be wrong, she could be a teenager, but I don't' think so. Therefore, even in Western society filial piety does exist regardless if we see it our not. How sad would society be if we mocked filial piety.
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:16 PM   #42
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Re: Aikido injuries

Real quick, and simple. Respect for parents begets respect for your Sensei which in return begets continued respect for your parents ( Per Sensei -a general respect as defined by Western society as any teacher, professor, or instructor for that position and effort- lets not get weird with this, even though, I know, I can't stop, anyone from getting weird with what I just said, or going to some kind of dictionary to define terms).

I don't think the daughter should stop Aikido, but Aikido isn't a career and we have to be realistic about it. Medicine isn't an easy field. It is very demanding, and more then not, family takes the very back seat. Surgeons and other MDs have a very high rate of suicide and divorce rate which you don't hear about. Therefore, decision must be carefully made IMO. Aikido in the most general Western sense is a hobby. Hey, golf is spiritual too ( let's not get weird on that either).

I would applaud the daughter if she is still doing Aikido in 10 years as a successful surgeon ( plastic surgery is an exception if that is what she will be doing). I say this because their is numerous times where my surgeon friend and I are interrupted, thus never finishing a meal, or conversation without the beeper going off over the years. I can give you a block long list of similar complaints his wife and kids have having a surgeon as a husband and father. I don't think the man is capable of being able to relax. He functions on an average of 2-4 hrs a sleep a night. I think the most he has every had since I known him was 6 hrs during his yearly vacation to keep himself sane. And works on an average 7 days a week, and there is no such thing for him an 8 hr shift as he is either on call or meeting the demands of his Patience's or the hospital's.

The father's concern IMO was not to be argued. A rough class would jeopardize her career if a bad injury took place and it could happen. You can't discount the father's initial concerns. Luckily, she is taking a class under a medically licensed sensei who is aware of her career goals. This according to the father has eased his concerns. You can't put him down for being a father, and put Aikido above that. Aikido is wonderful sure, but people can live without it. And respecting a parents' concern in such a matter maybe more atune to Aikido-like then rejecting a parent's concern. It goes without saying all this is a personal decision, as the father asked for input, thus I gave him what I knew and experienced.

It may upset some that I don't seem to have an Aikido or Bus, or viva la Aikido type attitude. Simply then pls. keep in mind it is my opinion which differs from yours, and I am not trying to rock the boat. Thanks for that consideration. It is greatly appreciated.

Everyone have a nice day, and meaningful practices.
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Old 11-09-2005, 06:37 PM   #43
Fred Little
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Re: Aikido injuries

Dear Special Appearance:

Domestic disputes are always dangerous business.

Diagnosis at a distance is dangerous business.

Appeal to concepts drawn from foreign cultures is a dangerous business.

Long distance diagnosis of domestic disputes involving concepts drawn from foreign cultures is a trifecta, and then there's the added factor of an anonymous public inquiry, which is curious in its own right.

Just some observations, take them or leave them as you will.

FL
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Old 11-10-2005, 02:31 PM   #44
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Re: Aikido injuries

Mr. F. Little,

I thank you for your input. I think that you said last goes without saying. Just as people will take the things they read, the way the want to, and not always as intended by the author. We need words and phrases to communicate to others a message. We hope the message we create will come across as intended, as accurately as possible. Any literate and reasonable educated person knows the many difficulties that can happen when dealing with words to communicate an idea. Trying to communicate any idea in a written language faces many difficulties both mechanically, and interpretively; the limitations of the language it's self to accurately get the message across the reader within rules and standards, to how the message is interpreted by the reader. The greatest variable is the reader. Therefore, I think we do the best we can and hope for the best that the reader interprets the message as we intended.


I don't think any one is making a diagnosis and if you concurred that from my writing, I must politely redirect you to read my thoughts again and discuss them with me for clarity and accuracy as deemed as feedback exchange. My thoughts are simply in support of the father and the father's original concerns. I would think those you understand Aikido would, like myself, agree that Aikido as an art supports the father as well, i.e. take serious the concerns of you parents; respect them. I don't see any danger in using the phrase filial piety or being supportive of the decision and concern of the father? I don't see that as domestic dispute. I can't be responsible for how each reader interprets the phrase or meaning it has to each individual.

The father was looking for information concerning a situation his daughter was in. The danger might be the use of filial piety to describe that Aikido, based on its heritage and foundation in Japanese society would support the idea the daughter take her father's concern seriously, if he confronted her with it. I don't think the father would ever want his daughter to choose the career as a prostitute over being a doctor. I don't think that is supported by Aikido either.

At any rate I am not really sure of your message and purpose for saying it. It may simply be a matter of being it is lost on me. That you see another layer and concern for the use of filial piety as defined by your remarks of straw and mud. It may simply being a case of you reading too much into it, and that may come from having too much experience. Because honestly, for me it was nothing more then the daughter who takes Aikido maybe more understanding of her father's concerns because of her training in Aikido then if she didn't because of the idea that both Western and the Japanese culture teach their kids to respect their parents, of course to different degrees and lengths. By know means, did I infer or say anything more then that with the tools of language at hand, hence the term filial piety. Said in the simplest correlation and connection.

Forgive me, but I can't see what the fuss is all about, or rather the concern that mud may come in contact per chance with straw if and when it rains.
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Old 02-06-2006, 12:43 PM   #45
John Brockington
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Re: Aikido injuries

Dad of doc2b-
I'm sorry I didn't see this thread until today, because I would have responded to your dilemma when it was more timely, but in any case if you see this message I hope it helps you and your daughter in your considerations on her practicing aikido while preparing for medical school. Let me first say that I am a practicing physician, on faculty in the department of Neurology at the university here, and I am also a shodan in aikido, preparing for nidan test (2nd degree black belt) in a few weeks. I have also experienced various minor and not so minor injuries in aikido, including separating both acromioclavicular joints (AC joints) on different occasions. On both occasions, it was painful and inconvenient and affected my sleep more than anything, but I eventually recovered completely. I seriously doubt if I could have performed surgery during the six or so weeks of initial healing, but now can detect no impairment of fine motor control on either side. But let me add something else, which is really why I'm writing this. Aikido has helped me immeasurably in practicing medicine, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Because aikido requires really blending with situations and conflict more than totally dictating a response, I am much less judgemental of my patients, more accepting of their foibles (and my own), and in many ways feel closer to them than before. I think that I take people and situations on their own terms more now, and I certainly feel a lot less stress because of this. You may or may not know this, but in medical school and residency training there is often an emphasis on "fixing the problem," and your daughter will get a huge dose of this in a surgical residency. Well, guess what? Some things can't be "fixed" or simply taken care of, some patients are uncooperative and resentful, some doctors are petulant, entitled and unhappy, and so on. There is a lot more to the practice of medicine than knowing diseases and treatments, and a whole lot of it is how one deals with people and ones' self when under stress. The more skills your daughter has to deal with a position of extreme stress and responsibility, aside from just the necessary capacity for the intellectual/physical practice of medicine, the better off she and her patients will be in the long run. Please contact me if I can be of any more help with this. John Brockington
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