Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb System

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-09-2005, 12:44 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,318
Offline
Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of October 9, 2005:

How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Critically important
  • Very important
  • Somewhat important
  • Not very important
  • Not at all important
Here are the current results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 04:50 AM   #2
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yours

I voted "not at all important" since I don't believe in the practitcal application of this "aikido" notion in self-defence.

And then I thought: in the dojo with the attacker being an uke, I surely want to negate the damage done to the attacker.
So how did the other voters interpret the question:training or self-defence?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 09:28 AM   #3
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

if the question applies to the sense of a Non-physical threat, to Verbal Self-Defense, it means Everything to me. In fact I'm practicing it in a way on this board, and currently there is discussion that makes me want to defend myself loudly and unskillfully and it is extremely interesting to discover that I Do Not Have to React "publicly" to something that would have totally set me off even after a year of training...still sometimes makes me feel like my head is going to explode, though!

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 11:09 AM   #4
John Lilly
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Lynnwood Washington
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I think it is very important. As an Corrections Officer I know if an inmate is injured in a use of force incident even tough the inmate may be totaly at fault it will be the taxpayers that have to foot the bill at the Emergency room and it could be me that has to work the mandatory overtime so someone can guard him while he is there.
John
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 10:36 PM   #5
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,096
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yours

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
I voted "not at all important" since I don't believe in the practitcal application of this "aikido" notion in self-defence.

And then I thought: in the dojo with the attacker being an uke, I surely want to negate the damage done to the attacker.
So how did the other voters interpret the question:training or self-defence?
I interpreted it as both. I think the goal is critically important. Does this mean the goal will always be actualized? No, but to do Aikido as I understand it, the intent must be there, otherwise you're doing a form of aikijujutsu. So you don't think it's practical, say, to go up against a drunkard who is well out of his right mind and not hurt the person? Against people of roughly equal abilities or when the odds are stacked against you I don't think it's very likely to be able to negate damage to your attacker, but if possible I think ought try (have the goal).
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 12:28 AM   #6
kocakb
Dojo: Burhan Felek Sport Center-Istanbul
Location: Istanbul
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 110
Turkey
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

how can we minimize the damage if we throw someone who can not fall ukemi ? we do atemi, mostly to the face, to perform a technique. Atemi would / could break the attackers nose or teeth if done a little hard. There can be more examples shown, like these. I don't believe in minimizing the damage, if a fight has already begun.
On the other hand, I know how harmful aikido could be, if done properly. So, to avoid any harm and to protect both of us (ourselves and the attacker), we should stay away from fighting as much as possible. No fight means no harm or damage. This is the ai side of aikido, isn't it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 06:01 AM   #7
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
I don't believe in minimizing the damage, if a fight has already begun
I have to disagree strongly with this statement (but accept I may be misunderstanding you). Even when a fight has begun, there will normally be stages where you can either disconnect or choose not to do as much damage as you can. For example, you've managed to get your opponent down on the floor, the question now is to put the boot in or not, I'd hopefully choose the latter even acknowledging it may not be the best tactical thing to do. I also would probably choose to cause pain over damage if the opportunity presented itself

I voted very important. I admit it's probably an impossible goal given my own skills and innate cowardice (hurt them before I get hurt school of thought). However, as goals go I don't think it's a bad one to pursue, as long as you keep a realistic perspective on your own abilities in that regard. It could also help in those tricky post-battle legal questions (a big problem in the UK where reasonable force can cause huge problems for victims)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 06:46 AM   #8
kocakb
Dojo: Burhan Felek Sport Center-Istanbul
Location: Istanbul
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 110
Turkey
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

[quote=Ian Hurst] Even when a fight has begun, there will normally be stages where you can either disconnect or choose not to do as much damage as you can.

yes you are right, but is it then the attackers choice? I have someone on the floor with nikkyo pin. Should I ask; I will leave you if you promise not to attack anymore or I will have to break your arm? How can we be sure that we will be safe? or if they are two people, you have someone with sankyo and he is your guard against the other. Would you go further, break the arm if the second guy continues to attack? It is a very difficult question and could only be answerd if that happens. The point is; choose not to do as much as damage as you can. I agree

When I wrote my opinion, I thought only about some techniques (which would be mostly used in real attacks, I think). If you pin your opponent, it is ok, you have time to think and choose, but on iriminage, kotegashi, koshinage, kaiten nage, the techniques where the attacker falls on the ground or the beginning of shihonage with atemi, would harm him seriously. How could we minimize the damage on "fast applied techniques, with falling end"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 08:05 AM   #9
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
techniques where the attacker falls on the ground or the beginning of shihonage with atemi, would harm him seriously. How could we minimize the damage on "fast applied techniques, with falling end"?
In part I agree with you. The damage caused from their falling badly is the hardest part to control. However, even here you do have some choice in where your intention is for them to land. Do you choose to sweep them off their feet as powerfully as you can or instead overload their posture, the first would be more likely to cause damage in my opinion.

Your own point concerning shihonage is also a good one, do you aim the shihonage at the persons spine or go for the old arm breaker, taking it out to the side and projecting over and down? My own view is you do have choices, it's whether you can successfully execute them in what will be at the very least a stressful situation is the final deciding point.

I think in general we agree, so thanks for clarifying your post as I thought I was misunderstanding your intent.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 08:31 AM   #10
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yours

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I think the goal is critically important. Does this mean the goal will always be actualized? No, but to do Aikido as I understand it, the intent must be there, otherwise you're doing a form of aikijujutsu.
I hope there are more important things to differentiate aikido from aikijujutsu.

Quote:
So you don't think it's practical, say, to go up against a drunkard who is well out of his right mind and not hurt the person?
You're right you shouldn't hurt the drunkard, but to me that's a self defence notion of acting in accordance with the situation (this is not something special to aikido). When I read "aikido notion of minimizing/negating damage", I see people having trouble with the martial aspects of aikido, living in a fairy tale land where you can convert an attacker to peace by executing aikido.

Quote:
Against people of roughly equal abilities or when the odds are stacked against you I don't think it's very likely to be able to negate damage to your attacker, but if possible I think ought try (have the goal).
If you try, wouldn't you risk failing and getting injured?
I have trouble believing it is possible to make a decision -any decision- in such situations.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 09:35 AM   #11
ESimmons
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

From my very limited perspective, I think the goal is to move in a way that requires minimal effort and that results in your attacker being projected away or neutralized.

I don't think there's anything inherent in that that says I should try to cradle my attacker so that he doesn't hurt himself. As far as I can tell, again from my limited experience, the whole "minimize damage to the attacker" ethic thing is a false construct.

So, I voted "not very important".
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 11:16 AM   #12
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,217
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I have always believed in the premise that the attacker brings about his/her own downfall. Our practice, of course, is to step aside (get off the line). The rest is what the late Terry Dobson Sensei called: "Wild Physics".
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 12:29 PM   #13
Simbo
Location: Carbondale
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 58
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I voted "critically important" because that's what I thought Aikido was all about and why I was so attracted to it. I don't want to hurt him/her/them anymore than I want to get hurt myself. As compounding factors change, so will my ability to prevent damage. A single guy who's staggering over towards me saying I offended his honor is something where I could probably handle not hurting him or getting hurt in the process. But lets say I'm walking through a back alley and a group of, oh lets say, four guys with bats, knives, etc. (assuming I can't just turn and run), if it was like that, while I'd like to avoid hurting them, me personally at my skill (aikido and other skills), I'd have to try and hurt them to avoid being hurt or killed. Now if I was a 1,000,000th dan, and not a skinny bean-pole, I could probably get through without too much hurt.
Now in the dojo, I say pain is not good. I've been a reciever and a giver of pain, accidentily of course. While practicing I try to avoid giving or recieving pain, by either doing something or not doing something. I know the pins can hurt, but usually my (insert joint here) is usually not tingling by the time it's about to be pinned again.
Just my opinion with my limited experience, ask me again in a year and it very well might be different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 01:23 PM   #14
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yours

Quote:
Steven Imboden wrote:
As compounding factors change, so will my ability to prevent damage. A single guy who's staggering over towards me saying I offended his honor is something where I could probably handle not hurting him or getting hurt in the process. But lets say I'm walking through a back alley and a group of, oh lets say, four guys with bats, knives, etc. (assuming I can't just turn and run), if it was like that, while I'd like to avoid hurting them, me personally at my skill (aikido and other skills), I'd have to try and hurt them to avoid being hurt or killed. Now if I was a 1,000,000th dan, and not a skinny bean-pole, I could probably get through without too much hurt.
I agree with you.
And that leads me to say that this "aikido notion" is meaningless:
if negating the damage you do to four knife wielding attackers while succesfully defending yourself, would be attainable, aikido would be very special in this respect. However, nobody seems to get beyond: if a drunk calls you names, don't break his neck. Well, duuh.

Last edited by jss : 10-10-2005 at 01:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 01:30 PM   #15
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,837
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Hi folks,

So, what implications does your answer to this poll have on your everyday on-the-mat aikido training?

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 02:57 PM   #16
billybob
 
billybob's Avatar
Dojo: Academy of Warrior Spirit
Location: tampa
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 440
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Jun,

It appears I have the honor of answering you first:

I answered 'critically important' - it is tough to blend thoroughly with an opponent if I am thinking about how I am going to crack their skull, neck, ribs, hands, elbows. I have to do "Awa Sedu" (I am so sorry for my spelling - my sempai spoke and I am writing phonetically).

On the street I have blended nicely with attackers and then run like hell. No one died.

Recently when burglarized I cleared my house with a .45 in hand (STUPID! I should have left and called for help), but I was only 9/10ths committed to killing: there was a good chance I was going to encounter a frightened thirteen year old and I would not want to kill him even though he had kicked in my back door. Same 13 year old attacking my wife with a knife I would put down like a dog.

Peace!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 09:27 PM   #17
sullivanw
Dojo: Portland Aikikai
Location: Portland
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 82
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hi folks,

So, what implications does your answer to this poll have on your everyday on-the-mat aikido training?

-- Jun
Hi all,

I voted 'critically important' because that is the ethic which gave rise to Aikido.
The ideal is to leave any and all attackers in an uninjured state. I don't ever expect to reach this ideal (such is the nature of 'ideal'), but it is something that can be approached, gradually, through training.
The implications for my on-the-mat training is that I feel that control is of utmost importance. Right now it seems that the extent of my control is walking through the door, changing, and bowing in.

In regard to not injuring someone who doesn't know the ukemi, I had a really cool experience once. We were working on kotegaeishi and I kept throwing myself into breakfalls. The instructor approached and told me to just take a back fall, and proceeded to throw me a few times. On the last throw he didn't go to the pin and I was left lying on my back, looking up at him grinning. So I started to get up, keeping the connection, giving energy, and all of a sudden he threw me so fast that I flipped right over! I didn't know how to do it properly, but he knew how to guide me into it.

Granted, my experience was in a sterile environment, but I think it shows that someone who doesn't know the ukemi can be dealt with effectively and with minimal damage. It just takes a long, long time to get there, but in the meantime we get to learn a method for at least defending ourselves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2005, 02:26 AM   #18
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
So, what implications does your answer to this poll have on your everyday on-the-mat aikido training?
Mainly a constant repetition of "softer" and general tirades at myself when I fall back into the bad old habits of clashing instead of blending. Simple example, using yonkyo to affect the body more rather than relying on pain compliance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2005, 09:45 AM   #19
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,096
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yours

"I hope there are more important things to differentiate aikido from aikijujutsu."

I think the intent of not hurting people unecessarily is a pretty important thing. But please tell me what the difference is since it seems I don't understand.

"You're right you shouldn't hurt the drunkard, but to me that's a self defence notion of acting in accordance with the situation (this is not something special to aikido)."

Of course it's not unique to Aikido, but it's still quite central to it. In that situation, without that "accordance," you're not practicing Aikido, are you? Many techniques are identical to those of other arts. If I use shiho nage to crush the back of some guy's skull when I don't have to, is that still Aikido? I don't think it is. That's my point. "Aikijujutsu," as a generic term, says nothing about protecting people, but Aikido, being more specific, does, insofar as I understand it at least. I know I am still a beginner though so please correct me if I'm wrong.

"When I read "aikido notion of minimizing/negating damage", I see people having trouble with the martial aspects of aikido, living in a fairy tale land where you can convert an attacker to peace by executing aikido."

I read this as an ideal to be strived toward while maintaining practicality. The term "minimizing" means doing as little as possible. The posibility is based on prerequisits...such as making sure I get to live as long as possible and not subjegating myself to the will(s) of bad or misguided people...and making sure my wife and child don't have to do the same. When these prerequisits seem to be tenuous, I will act accordingly. My family is more important than a misguided, though dangerous fool, and frankly, as much as I would hate it, I would not hesitate to kill someone if I had to, let alone hurt them.

"If you try, wouldn't you risk failing and getting injured?"

You're either in control or you're not, right? If you're not in control, you shouldn't be worrying about if the attacker is ok.

"I have trouble believing it is possible to make a decision -any decision- in such situations."

"Any decision"? When you have the time to figure out where to place your attacker safely, that's the time to do it. When you don't, you shouldn't waste your time on trying. With multiple attackers, obviously it's a more serious situation by quite a bit. If somehow you're able to handle however many people you face, you should "try" to not hurt them in so far as you're able to not hurt them. My only point is that it should be our goal to not harm people, but that we don't always reach that goal. The implication of that last part is pretty clear I think.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-11-2005 at 10:00 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2005, 10:13 AM   #20
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,096
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hi folks,

So, what implications does your answer to this poll have on your everyday on-the-mat aikido training?

-- Jun
On the mat we're in a relatively safe situation...a controled situation. As such, this means doing everything I can to keep my partner/attacker safe while considering the environment around me. Some of us train in places where there are posts in the middle of the mat and people being thrown around and people swinging sticks furiously about, and so while we have uke in total control, we should manipulate them to avoid these hazards before throwing or pinning them, for example. I try to be as precise as possible and as in control as possible so that, ideally, i can throw uke and have him/her land on a dime at a moment's notice. Of course, trying and doing are two different things.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2005, 11:26 AM   #21
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yours

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I think the intent of not hurting people unecessarily is a pretty important thing. But please tell me what the difference is since it seems I don't understand.
I think 'intent' is too vague a concept to tell the difference between two styles. Using technical differences would make more sense to me. And I won't be able to tell you the actual difference because I know too little about aikijujutsu.

Quote:
Of course it's not unique to Aikido, but it's still quite central to it. In that situation, without that "accordance," you're not practicing Aikido, are you? Many techniques are identical to those of other arts. If I use shiho nage to crush the back of some guy's skull when I don't have to, is that still Aikido? I don't think it is. That's my point.
If you take a look at this thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7851, you can see that I have asked for a source for this "aikido nottion" and as far as I can remember nobody got any further than 'Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere', which for me isn't good enough. So perhaps this aikido nation was originally not a part of aikido.

Quote:
"Aikijujutsu," as a generic term, says nothing about protecting people, but Aikido, being more specific, does, insofar as I understand it at least.
If you're refering to the jutsu-do difference, I read somewhere that it's not that clear cut. So now I don't know what to believe anymore...

Quote:
I read this as an ideal to be strived toward while maintaining practicality. The term "minimizing" means doing as little as possible. The posibility is based on prerequisits... <snip>
When you have the time to figure out where to place your attacker safely, that's the time to do it. When you don't, you shouldn't waste your time on trying.
Those prerequisits lead to too many ifs; hence on a purely practical level it is meaningless (see my reply to Steven Imboden). I'm not interested in not harming the drunk, because you might have done equally well without knowing aikido. I'm interested in how to apply this 'aikido notion' when your aikido really matters, against four knife wielding attackers for instance.
And one typical reply would be "O-sensei (him being the ultimate aikidoka) could have done it." Well, aikido is not about wat O-sensei could do, it is about what you can do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2005, 12:17 AM   #22
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,096
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yours

"I think 'intent' is too vague a concept to tell the difference between two styles. Using technical differences would make more sense to me."

I agree it couldn't be the only determining factor. In a sense I would say all styles intend to lead to the same thing: a mastery of the human form. In that sense I'm inclined to think they're all the same in the end. What differentiates them, in my opinion, is the approach toward that "end."

"I have asked for a source for this "aikido nottion" and as far as I can remember nobody got any further than 'Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere', which for me isn't good enough. So perhaps this aikido nation was originally not a part of aikido."

"By means of the way
Call out the misguided enemy
Advance and persuade him with words of instruction
Through the Sword of Love" (<----this is a quote I read as supposedly being written by OSensei) Of course this is very vague, but I think the intent of caring for your attacker is apparent.

"If you're refering to the jutsu-do difference, I read somewhere that it's not that clear cut."

I agree it's not clear cut, but i recall being told -do is a way of emphasizing the philosophy of a principle or set of principles. It might be compared to saying "techniques for living" and "way of life" maybe. Where a distinct divide occurs, if one can be said to exist at all, is unclear to me though.

"I'm not interested in not harming the drunk, because you might have done equally well without knowing aikido."

Not sure how that makes a difference. Couldn't you say that about any situation?

"I'm interested in how to apply this 'aikido notion' when your aikido really matters, against four knife wielding attackers for instance."

Like you mentioned before, I think it's all situation based. Not knowig the story of those proverbial 4 attackers, I try not to assume too much about them. Maybe 3 of them would rather be doing something else but are caught up in a bad situation. Not knowing one way or the other though, I'd rather, if the possibility exists, not hurt them. Frankly, I'm not that good right now. If those 4 guys trapped me and I escaped harm, chances are good it would only come about through serious and permanent damage to their joints and/or lives. Maybe it's naive, but I feel pitty for people who think a might makes right attitude (eg-criminals) is a viable solution to living a good life...I also feel anger, but pitty them at the same time. If I can allow them the chance to improve as individuals, i'd like to think I would. Allowing murderous people to live is a dangerous thing...and I can't claim to have a clear-cut answer to this issue. For this reason i think everyone ought realize this danger and develop their lives accordingly.

"And one typical reply would be "O-sensei (him being the ultimate aikidoka) could have done it." Well, aikido is not about wat O-sensei could do, it is about what you can do."

I agree. One can only do what they're capable of. Coincidentally, I have no doubt that OSensei was a great man...and maybe no one will ever be as good as he was, but I don't think that's a forgone conclusion. I'd like to think that one human is as capable as the next.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2005, 05:11 PM   #23
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,925
Offline
Re: Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Thanks to Jun for further clarifying by asking how we would apply this answer to "on the mat," because I really DO separate out various elements in pondering my reply:
I agree that there are many family, correctional, mental health, and related situations in which it is critically important that the person who attacks not be killed or injured. Currently, my own life and work don't put me in those situations with any regularity.
I didn't come to aikido, nor do I continue to train in aikido, primarily to learn/become adept at "real world self defense." In my many decades on the planet pre-aikido, I have always managed by verbal and nonverbal presentation to defuse, de-escalate, and otherwise set things up so I could walk away safely from real or potential attacks. I have never been a pacifist, and I continue to be willing to accept that in defending myself I may hurt the one who attacks me. What is more important to me would be aikido's ability to let me practice staying more relaxed, breathing and aware under profound stress such as an attack--and presumably one result would be having more options, including the less-harmful-to-others way we train in the dojo.
But I think the KEY thing for me in terms of everyday training is that I DON'T regard my attacking partner as an enemy or assailant. Never have. So in the dojo I never HAVE wanted to damage or destroy my partner (well except for that one s.o.b...no never mind [big grin]). Some of the training that I most enjoy has been when an instructor sets up takedown situations based on needing to get somebody down who is not an attacker but simply somebody standing in harms way, or if attacking, still is somebody who needs to be held and protected all the way down to the ground. I guess its the nurse in me; I enjoy that a lot more than throwing somebody really hard!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: How important a goal in your aikido training is the notion of defending yourself while minimiz AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 37 04-19-2006 05:11 PM
Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 26 05-16-2005 05:12 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:17 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate