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Old 07-14-2005, 12:21 PM   #1
spinecracker
 
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Christians and Muslims - the same God?

There is much debate raging about Islamic terrorists, but I would like to ask people what are their thoughts on a question that does not seem to be asked - Is the God (Allah) of Islam the same God of Jews and Christians? Pope John Paul II seemed to think they were, and was actively seeking greater contact between Catholics and Muslims. When asked, George Bush said that he believed that it was the same God for the 3 beliefs. Many leaders in the Evangelical Church are of the same opinion. But what do you think? I have my opinions, but I would like to hear what other people have to say. I am not asking this question to offend, only to create open debate of this important issue.

This is a very important matter for us in these days. If Christians, Jews and Muslims share the same God, there is a chance of reconciliation between the faiths, and thus an end to the hostilities. If not, be prepared for bloodshed that is only going to get worse.
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Old 07-14-2005, 01:07 PM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

What difference does it make if they "fundamentally" can't seem to get along.

I think a big part of the problem from my personal belief systems is not so much that they inately believe that they have the same god, but that they believe that they are separate and distinct from god and the earth.

I would have to go on for pages and pages about the fundamental flaws of dogmatic, fundamentalist, separatist beliefs/philosophies and how they psychologically, if even not intentionally cause personal conflict, that leads to social conflict.

The real problem is that most religions don't see themselves as part of the problem, but that there actions are justified and sanctioned by a higher power.

Until we all see the interdependence of ourselves and the connections we have at a interpersonal level...nothing else will really matter.

Why is it that both me and my brother growing up could accept the fact that we had the same parents, but still fought like cats and dogs daily????

I think the popularity of aikido stems from the fact that it is really a great allegory that demonstrates cooperative effort, and the options available for resolving conflict through mutual cooperation, understanding, and constant practice. We grow to realize that if we look close enough at ourselves that we are as much a part of our "bad aikido" as our partners are.

It is not the belief in god nor disbelief, or the even required that we agree on that we share the same god..but that we all intrinsically understand our relationship and responsibility to each other on a interpersonal level that transcends time, space, and religion.

This to me is much more important that any belief in god or religion. I believe this is what God wants from us
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Old 07-14-2005, 02:25 PM   #3
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

If you believe in only one God, they must have the same one. Otherwise you would recognise the existence of at least one other god.

For atheiststs it must be the same "nothing".

So the question is only relevant for people, who know about many gods. For those I can say, yes they have the same sources and many descriptions are very similar, so SHE is probably the same. There are only different interpretations of love and neighbors.

Clear enough?

Dirk
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Old 07-14-2005, 03:21 PM   #4
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

I've read that muslims acknowledge judaism and christianity as the other two religions that are "of the book". I don't really know for certain what this entails. I've known muslims that were cool to me, and then there are the violent ones we're hearing about on TV. I think muslims are just like other religious people; some are mean and some are nice.

None of this stuff is totally clear, huh?

We should concentrate on things we all have in common.
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Old 07-14-2005, 03:34 PM   #5
Jim ashby
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

I once read a quote "Religious war is the same as killing people to prove who has the best imaginary friend". If these three groups all kill each other AND they all have the same imaginary friend, then I despair of the human race.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 07-14-2005, 04:11 PM   #6
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Robert, to answer your question the answer is kinda sorta not really. I'm no expert on the subject but this is how I understand it ( and I apoligize to anyone whom I offend in the process).

Christians and Jews believe in the same God, Yaweh (spelling?) in Hebrew or Jehova as translated for the KJV. Same person here, but the debate is over the role of Jesus.

The Muslim faith is a little fuzzy, I am not sure if they came to be with Issac and Ishmael, the sons of Abraham, when God cursed the Middle East or the peoples therein to fight forever, or if it was the issue of Jesus failed to accomplish his mission and so God sent Mohammad to conquer most of the known world, or possibly both.

I don't think Muslims Christians and Jews all worship the same God mostly because the God described in both the Bibles is a very diffrent God and sets down very diffrent laws than the God of the Muslims.

I am really not sure where the break occurs or why, but there is a break. The funny thing about religion is that before Jesus and the fall of Rome Judiasm and Christianity didn't exhist and if I am correct Islam came about somewhere around 1000 AD.

Very intresting post Robert and I would love to see this become a full blown discussion.
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Old 07-14-2005, 06:19 PM   #7
Neil Mick
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Quote:
James Ashby wrote:
I once read a quote "Religious war is the same as killing people to prove who has the best imaginary friend". If these three groups all kill each other AND they all have the same imaginary friend, then I despair of the human race.
Yes, exactly.
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Old 07-14-2005, 11:20 PM   #8
dan guthrie
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Which reminds me of a joke:

The pope's secretary bursts into the room, "Your holiness, I've got good news and bad news."

"Well," the pontiff asks, "what's the good news?"

"God's on the phone and He wants to talk to you!"

"What's the bad news?"

"He's calling from Salt Lake City."

On a serious note: there's only one God. But like the story of the elephant being desribed by different blind men there are many different opinions on the subject. An elephant doesn't become a wall just because a blind man thinks he's one.

For purposes of this discussion could we define atheism as the belief that there is no God and agnosticism as not being sure/waiting for evidence either way? I think this definition makes atheism a "faith," i.e. belief in something which isn't proven. I think most - if not all - agnostics mistakenly call themselves "atheists." Just my two cents.
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Old 07-14-2005, 11:56 PM   #9
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Hi Robert;

to your question; has Islam the same God of Jews and Christians, yes it has. There is only one God...

the difference is; in Islam, we believe that Jesus is the prophet of God - not son and nothing else...and in Koran; there is written that Jesus is one of the prophets of God and Muhammed is the last prophet, born about 600 years later after Jesus.

during the time, the content of the Gospel (book of Christians - spelled correctly !!!) has been changed many times. Koran has been sent to people to be the last book because of the changes of the Gospel - and Koran has not been changed since over 1500 years (it is the same with every letter as it was for ~1500 years). We believe that the God will protect its content forever.

So, we believe in Jews and Christians and Jesus and have the same God ("there is one God and Muhammed is the last prophet" is the main idea) and there are lot's of things written in Koran about Jesus...

Hope that I could help you to answer your question.

Kindest regards,
and happy training,
Blent
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Old 07-15-2005, 02:58 AM   #10
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
The funny thing about religion is that before Jesus and the fall of Rome Judiasm and Christianity didn't exhist and if I am correct Islam came about somewhere around 1000 AD.
Judaism didn't exist before Jesus ?!?

Last edited by deepsoup : 07-15-2005 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 07-15-2005, 03:49 AM   #11
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Quote:
Blent Koak wrote:
Hi Robert;

to your question; has Islam the same God of Jews and Christians, yes it has. There is only one God...

the difference is; in Islam, we believe that Jesus is the prophet of God - not son and nothing else...and in Koran; there is written that Jesus is one of the prophets of God and Muhammed is the last prophet, born about 600 years later after Jesus.

during the time, the content of the Gospel (book of Christians - spelled correctly !!!) has been changed many times.
Hi Blent,

up to here there is quite little to argue, I 'd just say you're right.
Quote:
Blent Koak wrote:
Koran has been sent to people to be the last book because of the changes of the Gospel - and Koran has not been changed since over 1500 years (it is the same with every letter as it was for ~1500 years). We believe that the God will protect its content forever.
I guess it is commonly agreed, that the Koran is based on an older version of the Bible or Gospel, than what most Christians and Jews use. But the only proof that it is the original one, is your believe.

I might accept that the Koran has not changed for some 1500 years, but at least there are also big differences in interpretation.

A simple example - easy to understand for those, who just heard someone talk about the words of God: Some religious leaders argue that it is not allowed to kill Jews and Christians, as they believe in the same God.
Some argue that it is allowed to kill them as they do not call him Allah and they do not follow the rules given by Mohammed.

So assuming the Koran contains the truth, how does it help, if it is not "reader proof".

And given I understood the arguments above well, how can a peaceful muslim (and most of them are) explain to a less peaceful mate (e.g. from Pakistan), that he should not kill Hindus?

I believe, if you look into your heart, you will find the way. Learning from all the good books will help. But as there is no objective proof for the truth, you should be as tolerant as possible to those, who see it different.

And there is a limit for tolreance. I would never tolerate death penalty for example. Neither many other trhings that happen evry day around the world.

Be God with you


Dirk
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Old 07-15-2005, 05:12 AM   #12
kocakb
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Hi to all,

Dirk, you are right what you wrote...I don't know how to explain the example you have given. As you say, people should ask it o him/herself for the truth. In my opinion; there can not be any explanation of killing people...you wrote "some argue that it is allowed to kill them because of not having the same beliefes"; most of the people in Turkey are muslim; but we do still remember the explosion from last year. A bank and UK Consulate were attacked in Istanbul and people having the same belief have lost their lives...

I don't know, it is the nature of human being. In Koran (Bakara Sura 30) there is written that;
Once, the Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt You place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate. The praises and glorify The holy (name)?" He said: "I know what you do not know."

We wish God will bring love to the world,
Ai to everyone...

Regards,
Blent
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Old 07-16-2005, 11:40 PM   #13
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Sean to clarify:

Under the laws given by Moses sacrifices had to be made pretty frequently, as well as a sacrifice to be made once a year where blood was placed on the Arc of the Covenant. During this time there were two groups of people: Israelites and Gentiles, each had their own set of laws given to them by God.

The distinction I am trying to make is a very fine line, but on one side the Jews were in accordance with the old law and on the other side they are no longer in accordance with it because they lack the Arc, the temple, the high priest, and to my knowledge no longer make sacrifices.


Bulent, I am curious, what does the Koran say about Jesus other than he was a prophet?
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Old 07-18-2005, 02:13 AM   #14
kocakb
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Hi to all,

I wish you all a wonderful new week,

And to your question Dustin, you can find Kuran in English, German, French etc at the web side; www.kuran.gen.tr

About Jesus in Kuran;

About his birth:

Surah Maryam

16. And mention in the Book (the Qur'n, O Muhammad, the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.
18. She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allh) from you, if you do fear Allh."
19. (The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
20. She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allh).' "
22. So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem valley about 4-6 miles from Jerusalem).
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!"
24. Then [the babe 'Iesa (Jesus) or Jibrael (Gabriel)] cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you;
25. "And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you."
26. "So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'"
27. Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing).
28. "O sister (i.e. the like) of Hrn (Aaron) [not the brother of Msa (Moses), but he was another pious man at the time of Maryam (Mary)]! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman."
29. Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"
31. "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salt (prayer), and Zakt, as long as I live."
32. "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.
33. "And Salm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"
34. Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
35. It befits not (the Majesty of) Allh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allh]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is.
36. ['Iesa (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allh is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. (Allh's Religion of Islmic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)." [Tafsir At-Tabar]
37. Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about 'Iesa (Jesus)], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allh] from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).
38. How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allh) see and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimn (polytheists and wrong-doers) today are in plain error.
39. And warn them (O Muhammad ) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.


And Others when He was a Prophet (that he is not the son of God)

Surah As-Saff

6. And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allh unto you confirming the Taurt [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed . But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad ) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic."

Surah Al-Ma'idah'

46. And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) , confirming the Taurt (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurt (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqn (the pious - see V.2:2).
47. Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fsiqn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allh.
48. And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur'n) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge between them by what Allh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allh willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.

110. (Remember) when Allh will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rhul Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, AlHikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurt (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "
111. And when I (Allh) put in the hearts of Al-Hawreen (the disciples) [of 'Iesa (Jesus)] to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims."
112. (Remember) when Al-Hawrn (the disciples) said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" 'Iesa (Jesus) said: "Fear Allh, if you are indeed believers."
113. They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to be stronger in Faith, and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."
114. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Allh, our Lord! Send us from heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."
115. Allh said: "I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on anyone among (all) the 'Alamn (mankind and jinns)."
116. And (remember) when Allh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.
117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).
118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the AllMighty, the AllWise ."
119. Allh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).
120. To Allh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

His Death (that Jesus was not killed)

Surah An-Nisa'

157. And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:
158. But Allh raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allh is Ever AllPowerful, AllWise.
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Old 07-18-2005, 02:48 PM   #15
spinecracker
 
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

I have a simple question - Is the bible lying and the Koran correct, or visa versa? Jesus was very clear to point out many times that He was the Son of God (ignore bible versions such as the NIV - they are corrupt). The Koran denies this. If Jesus was a prophet of God only, then he claimed power and authority that was not his, which is not a trait of the prophets sent by God. Either the Bible is correct, or the Koran is - not both. Being a Christian, I know which one I would believe.
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Old 07-18-2005, 05:39 PM   #16
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Quote:
Robert Fox wrote:
I have a simple question - Is the bible lying and the Koran correct, or visa versa? Jesus was very clear to point out many times that He was the Son of God (ignore bible versions such as the NIV - they are corrupt). The Koran denies this. If Jesus was a prophet of God only, then he claimed power and authority that was not his, which is not a trait of the prophets sent by God. Either the Bible is correct, or the Koran is - not both. Being a Christian, I know which one I would believe.
It is very difficult to reply on this. True, if you believe one side the other one must be wrong, but you will never get ascientific proof.
Some people argue, that in those times narrations used a lot of common metaphors, as Herode's baby killing seem to be historically doubtful. The year of birth has some contradictory facts and many more.
And usually Jesus talks about his Father, but aren't most of us christians pray to our Father without pretending being his direct children, not talking about the monks and ministers called pater (father) without meaning it literally. I know, sometimes you can take it literally but that would be another thread.

The only fact that seems to be proven, as far as I know, that the Koran is based on an older interpretation of the Bible. And if you say ignore some bible versions, because they NIV and others are corrupt, well there have been times when the catholc church was corrupt and changed the bible. And how can you trust any translation if the origins are not original.

But anyhow, you have to believe, but as you will not get objective proof on any version, you have to accept that other interpretations have their right, as well.

That is why I ask for as much tolerance on religion as possible. As already said in another thread there are limits - at least for me.

God bless you all, whom ever you choose.

Dirk
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:01 PM   #17
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

I few comments:

Bulent thanks for the info.

Robert, I tend to agree with you, you are scratching the surface. Depending on how much you know check out Hebrews, lots of explinations if you take the time to dig through it.

Dirk, Yes I have no doubt that the scriptures were changed by the Catholic Church. I also know for a cold hard fact that there have been a number of modifications made in recent times to suit the editor
s purpose. But, there are versions out there that were translated as directly as possible from the origional manuscripts that should be pretty accurate. Ultimately, whatever you believe, comes down to faith.
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:40 PM   #18
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Dustin the problem lies in translation. From Aramaic to Roman to Hebrew to English there are words that don't translate exactly or can be easily misinterpreted. This is a common problem when documents are translated from one language to another. This is one reason Muslims insist on the Koran being written in Arabic, it's original language. The only accepted versions of the Koran are in Arabic. Although translations exist, Muslims follow the Arabic writings.

The problem with the Bible is the inconsistencies between the four books. Only one book speaks of the manger birth while another mentions a house and thje other two make no mention. The bible indicates Jesus was taken before Pilate becuase the Jewish elders could not sentence him to death. According to Jewish law the elders could sentence to death by stoning, again this is not consistent. Jesus' body is given to John following the crucifixtion, this was actually contrary to Roman law and prohibited. Roman law required the body to remain on the cross. Finally the book of Thomas, discovered in Egypt and predates all other known books of the bible, contradicts many facts in the other four books and ironically have been unaccepted by the Roman Catholic Church.

It is this manipulation, editing, and inconsistencies that make me question the content of the Bible.

Gregory Makuch
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:16 PM   #19
DustinAcuff
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Given, jumping languages does produce some problems, the more languages used the less accurate the translation could be, the versions I speak of are directly from the Hebrew or Greek into English, not though Latin or any other language.

As to the inconsistencies within the first 4 books. Each tells the story from a diffrent point of view with a diffrent audience in mind. Each book was also written at a diffrent time and described diffrent events. Details that may be relevant to the Jews, such as lineage back to David, would have had little relevance to the Gentiles. You mentioned some that I have never heard of before and I will look into them. As to the book of Thomas, it is not suprising. At the time the Bible, if you want to call it that, was passed on through letters and word of mouth. When the formal Bible as we know it today was created teams of scholars and high standing members of the Church were assembeled and all the manuscripts present at the time were brought together and only the ones that were deemed undeniably God-inspired (if you will use the term, my brain is fried and I lack a better word at the moment) were put into the Bible.

The reasons for this were quite sound. Even within the Old Testament there are various versions of some of the stories, but they all kept the same theme, the same continuity and the same order, such as possible from two famlies telling the same history. With Christianity however this continuity was lacking. As mentioned in the Bible some congregations were doing things in opposition to God and had to be told so formaly. Among the numerous letters in circulation there were a number of things that did not add up: in one version it was said that Mary-Magdeline was a cousin of Jesus, or a wife, or an unwed lover, his closest companion; in another place it states that she was at the last supper and ask Jesus if women could enter Heaven and He replied that they could not and as a reward for her faithful service he turned her into a man. And still another claims that Mary was pregnant by Jesus and fled with his child to what is today southern France.

When you really look at all the possibilities, the two thousand years of possible human errors, and the possibilities at the time, it really just boils down to you either believe or you don't. For the Christian it is easy to accept that these things did happen as it was said they would and that God protected and ensured the survival of the truth. If you are not a Christian then it is easy to see 2000 years of BS preventing anyone from knowing anything accurately. It is really something that needs faith.
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Old 07-19-2005, 01:49 AM   #20
Red Beetle
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

The God of the 66 books of the Protestant Bible the same as the god of the evil hellish Koran?

The God of the Bible is not even the same as the God of the evil hellish Roman Catholic Church-state.

Sola Scriptura!

Jews do not believe in the God of the Bible.
The God of the Bible is Triune. One God who reveals himself in three persons. Jews reject this, and therefore they reject God in doing so. God was also incarnate. Muslims also reject the Trinity and the incarnation, and therefore they reject God.


The Pope thinks that he is God. He calls himself the "HOLY FATHER" and wants to be venerated as the "VICAR of CHRIST." God disagrees. The Scripture condemns anyone making such claims as Antichrist.

for more info see Darth Gill at
www.5solas.org
and tell him
Red Beetle
sent you!
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:13 AM   #21
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Fundamentalists of any stripe are the bane of mankind.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:07 AM   #22
deepsoup
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Fellow unbelievers.
It may not be too late for us, check this site out. (No really, do, its a hoot.)

At last, the TRUTH is out there:

"Truth #7: God Wrote Only One Bible And It Is Of Course The 1611 A.D. Edition Of The King James Version Of The Holy Bible. Amen.

All other Bibles are FALSE FORGERIES and the only way to learn the Truth of Salvation is to read the 1611 King James Bible. Amen. Those who are using incorrect versions know who you are and why you are doing it and you will go to HELL for tainting your soul with the filth of the devil. Amen. The only hope for the non-English speaking peoples around the world is to learn English so they can read the TRUTH instead of a lie!!! which will get them into HELL so fast they will not have time to warn their families and therefore their families will BURN TOO! Amen."

and even better than that:
"Truth #4: There Is Only One True Church And Almost No One Goes To It. Amen.

The ONLY one and true Christian denomination is that of the Duck River Association of Baptist Churches which originated in 1825 from a protest movement within the old Elk River Association of Baptist churches which was not in communion with God's Word as clearly stated in His Holy Bible and therefore in an unrepentant state of APOSTASY. Amen.

All churches outside of the 1825 Duck River Association of Baptist Churches are preaching a LIE and will answer for their lies when Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father and judges the nations but especially the Elk River Association of Baptist Churches which knows the truth but professes to believe a lie. Amen."

Amen.
Sean
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:09 AM   #23
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Dustin at the time of the original writing of the Bible (some 50-100 years after Jesus' crucifixion) Rome ruled what is now Israel. As such all books and documents were translated into Latin (in the Bible's case from Aramaic). The Hebrew and even the Greek versions are translated from Latin (although there may be a Hebrew version translated directly from Aramaic also). Either way there are still several translations to get to English. Now the New Testament was written originally in Greek, not Aramaic so there would be less distortion, but there is still words used in the English version that are not in the original texts.

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:45 PM   #24
DustinAcuff
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Gregory along with Latin, Greek and Aromaic were both dominant languages at the time, Greek was concidered to be the "common" tounge at the time even more so than Latin, expecially around the Med Sea because Greece was a major nation for Sea trade. The scriptures were not translated into Latin until some point after the Roman Catholic Church was formed around 200 years later I do believe. Rome was a multi cultural society where I won't even venture a guess at the number of languages commonly spoken. The fact that something was written in even Rome proper in no way meant it was in a language even close to Latin.

Also, in ancient Rome ther reason that occupation was so sucessful and was able to keep the peace was that all religious groups were allowed to keep their religion and language, provided they still paid homage to the Roman gods or were granted the right not to if they were of an old, established, and respected religion, such as the religion of the Hebrews. Also, though you are correct that Rome was in contorl of Israel at the time you are neglecting the fact that the majority of the Jews mentioned in the bible were quite far form here, and as such they could easily pass along information in a language of their own that still is not dead.

Not only was in simply not feasable to comission such an undertaking of translating all religious documents, or any real number of documents, into Latin to consolidate Rome's power over the peoples, it would have been the single largest fault that could possibly happen because people would feel that they were being infringed upon in a rather offensive manner by a tyrant government and would likely have ended the rule of Rome rather immediately.

And no, it is possible for the scriptures to be translated directly rather than translated from other translations. The KJV was a direct translation from the origional languages as well as a few others. I am not a strong advocate for the KJV, I'm just trying to get as accurate a translation as humanly possible.

As to the extra words, english is one of the only languages that uses a word that can in any way be construed to mean "the". I'm not terribly worried about the words that have been added to allow gramatical correctness within the english language. Also for your reading pleasure there are versions written as a direct word for word translation that add the words required for continuity within brackets or not at all, and also will refrence words that have more than one meaning according to form used and context and refrence with other parts where the word was obviously used in other places. And since the Old Testament is also the Torah it is indeed possible to get an extremely accurate translation from your friendly neighborhood Jew.

I'm pretty well versed in Latin and Roman history and I have raised many of the same questions myself when something didn't quite work out (like what is known as the Christmas Story). The reason I follow what I do is because no ammount digging has been able to disprove it in my experience.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:32 AM   #25
Jim ashby
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Re: Christians and Muslims - the same God?

Hmmmm, this gives the basis of the Atheist/Theist arguments "The reason I follow what i do is because no ammount (sic) digging has been able to DISPROVE (my capitals) it in my experience".
Believing because it cannot be DISproven? That way lies madness IMHO. Looking at the present Jihads and the "war on terror" it makes me sad that those who follow religion are prepared to kill those who disagree on interpretation of ancient books, not just those who are a "clear and present danger".
Humanity eh? What chance do we have.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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