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Old 10-07-2005, 11:36 AM   #151
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Not saying that O-sensei didn't say this but the kanji for atemi is 当身, basically strike and body.
Just to add some linguistic fodder to this discussion...

Please note that 当る in Japanese can also be used in many other instances including putting a sticker onto something ( ステッカーを当てる ), shining a light onto something ( 光を当てる ), blowing hot wind upon something ( 熱風を当てる ), and even guessing something I'm thinking ( 考えている事を当てる ).

There are also many compounds using 当 including 当番 ("touban," person on duty), 見当 ("kentou," estimate), 手当 ("te ate", compensation), and 目当て ("me ate", purpose). None of these connote striking the "turn," "vision," "hand," or "eye." (Heck, it's even used in 弁当 ("bento," boxed lunch), and I can't say I've ever felt like hitting my lunch!)

-- Jun

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Old 10-07-2005, 12:20 PM   #152
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Yes I have spent some time training in Xing yi, and to the best of my knowledge Xing yi does come from Ji Long Feng, who was a very famous spear fighter. After study I would agree, that the foundation of xing yi came from spear fighting, the way you use your body in a line, and the 3 physical harmonies are ready evidence of this.
Hi Chris:

I think you're using the term 3 physical harmonies to mean the 3 external harmonies; ankle-wrist, elbow-knee, shoulder-hip, right? The 3 external harmonies are meaningless without the 3 internal harmonies: heart leads mind; mind leads qi; qi leads jin. In other words, the saying about the "six harmonies" (which Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua, and some others use) is about using the body in its "natural movement" (the natural winding and unwinding of the body which results in the coordinations of the 3 external harmonies) when it is powered exclusively by what would be called ki and kokyu in a Japanese martial arts forum. The center of the relationship between the 3 harmonies is the dantien, which controls the lengthwise relationship of the 3 external harmonies, so when you say you're using those 3 harmonies to control the spear, you're essentially just saying that the control is purely dantien, ki, and kokyu.

When it's understood that a weapon is simply an extension of the hand and not a separate thing, the training of middle-hand (or whatever part of the body) and middle-weapon becomes very obvious as the same thing(particularly if someone knows how to move using the 6 harmonies). I.e., if someone understands this relationship and is training ki and kokyu with a suburito, they're also training it to the hand, back, elbow, etc.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-07-2005, 12:24 PM   #153
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Chris:

Pressure point is a term often used in the literature interchangeably with vital point, acupuncture point, nerve point, etc.

Not everything has to be hit hard by the way. I have "buzzed" students with light force quite by accident. A lot has to do with the set up points and sequence. Deep nerve locations does make it very difficult on some people and I would never rely on striking them as the only way of setting things up-if they are on drugs they may feel nothing.
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Old 10-07-2005, 06:07 PM   #154
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Jun,
You have apparently never had a box lunch made by my mom!!

John,
That was basically what I was saying about pressure points, they are not as likely to stop a man as a punch to the face, sturnum, or liver.

Mike,

"The 3 external harmonies are meaningless without the 3 internal harmonies: heart leads mind; mind leads qi; qi leads jin"

If by this you mean that if a person is dead they cannot do Xing Yi, then you are correct, dead people can't move.

It also sounds like you read to many books. In real life a 1d10+2 doesent count for much.

-Chris

Last edited by ChrisHein : 10-07-2005 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 10-07-2005, 06:19 PM   #155
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
"The 3 external harmonies are meaningless without the 3 internal harmonies: heart leads mind; mind leads qi; qi leads jin"

If by this you mean that if a person is dead they cannot do Xing Yi, then you are correct, dead people can't move.

It also sounds like you read to many books. In real life a 1d10+2 doesent count for much.
I dunno, Chris.... I think a LOT of people know exactly what I mean by the heart leads mind, etc., quote I just made and few of them would accuse me of reading too much. Maybe of explaining too much. I just told you the exact, supportable truth.

Mike
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Old 10-07-2005, 06:31 PM   #156
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Oh, I understood what you were saying.
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Old 10-08-2005, 02:04 AM   #157
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ian Thake wrote:
I'm not sure, but did you mention elsewhere that your instructor had a CMA background? I've read that Hsing Yi (sp?) has an explicit spear -> fist connection so being taught to move your body to power a punch in the same way that you'd power a spear thrust seems very reasonable.

(Or are you arguing the stronger position that your spear work is tying directly into all strikes - be they roundhouse kicks, elbow strikes etc?)
Actually both.

The Yari work ties indirectly into all strikes. It instills in you the skill of "sending" power "into" the persion. It is NOT percussive at all Ironically the result is much more uncomfortable, or devestating, depending on how you deliver. (Btw, this isn't theoretical, I can do this as well, and have felt the same)

The Yari/Bo training is actually fairly common in JMAs. Its just that many are unaware of it. And I dont think its any coincidence that both the Chinese and Japanese practice them.
To give you a more specific answer, the Yari training comes from Yagyu Shingan Ryu, although you'll find the same training in a lot of Koryu I think
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Old 10-08-2005, 02:16 AM   #158
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
"The 3 external harmonies are meaningless without the 3 internal harmonies: heart leads mind; mind leads qi; qi leads jin"

If by this you mean that if a person is dead they cannot do Xing Yi, then you are correct, dead people can't move.

It also sounds like you read to many books. In real life a 1d10+2 doesent count for much.

-Chris
Chris,
I see you goto Shen Wu
Just on an offnote I've been dying to go visit at some point. I've been trying to convince my instructor to come along, since he's always been for the unorthodox uses of neijia. Not to mention that you guys have a fairly open matt policy

Anyways, the heart leads minds leads qi leads jin tha Mike is referring to IS concrete I think. Or at least from what I've experienced.
It's not "vague" feelings, or abstract notions.
Just thought I'd put that in there knowing that Tim also takes a very pragmatic approach to Hsing-I
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Old 10-08-2005, 04:54 AM   #159
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm not sure what the discussion is about, Peter. You're supporting my comment directly by saying "Those clips are part of a kata series developed by Kenji Tomiki" (they're part of randorii techniques and mainstream Aikido does not have randorii) and yet you're questioning why I haven't seen them commonly in mainstream Aikido.
A fundamental misunderstanding on your part. Those are techniques allowed in randori not specifically developed for randori. All of the techniques are from what Ueshiba M. taught Tomiki K. and at least his other early students. A kata series is just the stringing together of a set of techniques with a comon theme - in this case kihon forms of legal techniques in shiai.
Quote:
The discussion is about atemi, not the particular "techniques" like "classic iriminage". Jun's comment, to which I was responding, was that in the use of those kata/atemi they did not feel percussive; i.e., as atemi they did not feel like body strikes. My response was that it's hard to say if the "atemi" used in those practice drills actually represent the full atemi, as originally intended, so it's difficult to say much definitively. I don't get the point.
Jun was pointing out that the atemi term is far broader than percussive strikes. Iriminage is an atemi waza. There is plenty of percussive atemi in Shodokan/Tomiki aikido also but again atemi (70 or 90%) is not limited just to percussive atemi. This is true no matter what style of Aikido you perform. Understanding that is key to understanding the percentage value in my and others opinion.
Quote:
I don't think it's contradictory and neither will anyone else who has a fairly comprehensive grasp of atemi. I can touch someone in a non-percussive way, as shown in some of those clips, and *then* release enough power to send them through the air or damage their body.... so being "non-percussive" isn't definitive in all senses of the word "atemi".
I never said (nor did anyone else) that "non percussive" is definitive in all senses of the word "atemi". Contradictory is the statement that you generate power before you generate power - you either do you do not. No problem with your above statement - that is not what you said previously. I do think that my understanding of atemi is quite comprehensive thank you - albeit in the context of Japanese martial arts.

As an aside - the man who was with Ueshiba M. during the bulk of his stays in China was Kenji Tomiki.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-08-2005, 07:01 AM   #160
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Contradictory is the statement that you generate power before you generate power - you either do you do not. No problem with your above statement - that is not what you said previously. I do think that my understanding of atemi is quite comprehensive thank you - albeit in the context of Japanese martial arts.
Here's the original quote, Peter. It does not say what you're attributing to it:

"Secondly, even without being "percussive", I can generate fairly large power in each of those techniques, even if I just put my hand on someone before I do the generating. That power can be learned from suburi done correctly, IMO."

Just because the word "atemi" is being used doesn't mean that we're talking about a specific subject that is restricted to "Japanese martial arts". We're getting back into this Japan versus China versus the West, etc., that is really a "my style is best" discussion, at heart. I think an accomplished martial artist (note that word "accomplished"... meaning having more than just a superficial knowledge about limited issues) from Japan or from China or Indonesia or wherever, just looks at these things as being simply all part of the same thing. "Atemi" has to do with striking and the why's and how's of doing so.

Insofar as the discussions about Tomiki Aikido, it gets a little sketchy to pretend that a style which has incorporated judo and randorii is the same thing as traditional Aikido in all respects. I simply don't see any point in arguing the obvious. Certainly if I taught a combination of Aikido and BJJ I would have the grace to acknowledge that it was not the founder's art instead of impeding all discussions with a "no, no they're the same thing" stance. At least acknowledge the *possibility* and show some flexibility in the discussion.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:11 AM   #161
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Here's the original quote, Peter. It does not say what you're attributing to it:

"Secondly, even without being "percussive", I can generate fairly large power in each of those techniques, even if I just put my hand on someone before I do the generating. That power can be learned from suburi done correctly, IMO."
The above is a lot more clear after later qualifications - it wasn't then.
Quote:
Just because the word "atemi" is being used doesn't mean that we're talking about a specific subject that is restricted to "Japanese martial arts". We're getting back into this Japan versus China versus the West, etc., that is really a "my style is best" discussion, at heart. I think an accomplished martial artist (note that word "accomplished"... meaning having more than just a superficial knowledge about limited issues) from Japan or from China or Indonesia or wherever, just looks at these things as being simply all part of the same thing. "Atemi" has to do with striking and the why's and how's of doing so.
Sorry but I thought this thread was about what was meant by Ueshiba M. when he referred to Aikido as 90% atemi. How did Ueshiba M. think about his atemi, what did he refer to as atemi, this is the basis of the discussion. Like it or not Ueshiba's world was the Japanese martial arts and there is nothing to suggest that Ueshiba's view of atemi was altered beyond those boundaries. We could look at his doka, we could look at what long term students of his say on the matter and how they practice it. Gozo Shioda's view has already been mentioned as was Kenji Tomiki's (not initially by me). My contention is that if you look at the broader definition of atemi used within the Japanese Martial Arts (described by others in this thread) 90% becomes easily understandable.

Quote:
Insofar as the discussions about Tomiki Aikido, it gets a little sketchy to pretend that a style which has incorporated judo and randori is the same thing as traditional Aikido in all respects. I simply don't see any point in arguing the obvious. Certainly if I taught a combination of Aikido and BJJ I would have the grace to acknowledge that it was not the founder's art instead of impeding all discussions with a "no, no they're the same thing" stance. At least acknowledge the *possibility* and show some flexibility in the discussion.
All the techniques studied at Shodokan Honbu were taught to Tomiki by Ueshiba M. Judo specific techniques are not and never were incorporated - there was a conscientious effort not to (Mochizuki took another tack and did incorporate). Since the discussion revolves around technique (specifically what atemi means), Kenji Tomiki's long association with Ueshiba M., is a valuable reference point. What makes it even more valuable is Tomiki's academic bent - he classified and named technique according to function. Relationships are very clear.

Again as an aside since you choose to play keeper of the faith I have yet to have any visitor to Shodokan Honbu or my dojo tell me that the techniques we perform are not Aikido. That includes Shihan level Aikikai, Yoshinkan instructors and Ki Society. Not one of them had any trouble understanding why atemi waza are referred to as such.

Finally, although I don't consider myself an accomplished martial artist, mainly because I have been exposed to some truely greats, one can't blame me for getting a little tired of these constant suggestions that somehow you are and the rest of us heathan are not. Perhaps it true - perhaps not. Its irrelevant to the discussion.

Last edited by PeterR : 10-08-2005 at 09:19 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:21 AM   #162
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote:
Trouble is, once the fast strikers breach my maai, its almost impossible to do any aikido on them. In that I mean be it techniques, or just plain blending. Correct me if I'm wrong here ok. But is the ultimate physical aiki being able to blend with opponents no matter the speed? Because I'm not getting there.
I don't know whether this helps, but with fast strikers, I tend to find ura movements easier. The techniques seem to last a bit longer in ura and give you more time to dissipate uke's energy.
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:48 AM   #163
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Ok thanks John Kuo and Ron for your insights. John, love ya. finally got my clips back on pakour again. Now thats ukemi!

I'll try to the drills david suggested. It looks interesting.

As for Ura movements. Believe me I've tried. If the uke is attacking like No 1 in David's example its dead easy to do anything I like. But with fast strikers, who don't only use their hands, but knees legs and elbows etc, its not that simple. I can't exactly show you what I mean, but if you would like to experiment, ask a friend who's fairly competent in wing chun to assist.

Ask him to initiate the attack and try and go to his ura, if he has one that is.

The reason I first posted was only because I wanted to know how I can use atemi to improve my version of aikido (this very weak type which is not currently effective anymore). It actually makes more sense for me to use it now because with atemi, i can then expose opponents weakpoints and then choose to finalise with an aikido technique.

Only thing is, with the atemi i use now, (not the one prescribed in the earlier posts as being the Aikido type atemi), it is already enough to down the opponent. So why bother doing aikido???

Do you understand what I'm trying to get at here? Simplified...
Currently, aikido against attacker - not working. Get beaten up.
Use fast atemi's just like attacker, then technique. Works. But atemis alone enough. Why do technique?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:56 AM   #164
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Sorry but I thought this thread was about what was meant by Ueshiba M. when he referred to Aikido as 90% atemi. How did Ueshiba M. think about his atemi, what did he refer to as atemi, this is the basis of the discussion. Like it or not Ueshiba's world was the Japanese martial arts and there is nothing to suggest that Ueshiba's view of atemi was altered beyond those boundaries. We could look at his doka, we could look at what long term students of his say on the matter and how they practice it. Gozo Shioda's view has already been mentioned as was Kenji Tomiki's (not initially by me). My contention is that if you look at the broader definition of atemi used within the Japanese Martial Arts (described by others in this thread) 90% becomes easily understandable.
Hi Peter:

Are you suggesting that you know what Ueshiba considered "atemi" and I don't? I haven't pretended to. Yet, I've looked at his doka and other things and I see that Ueshiba's overall view of Aikido is well within the general view of Chinese, Indian, etc., martial arts. If you want to make the case that Japanese martial arts is somehow different and special, that "ki" and "kokyu" in "atemi" are somehow different from the same ki and kokyu in other Asian martial arts, I'd like to hear your reasoning. Frankly, I think you're just being Japan-centered.

And how do we keep getting back to the 90% time after time when the only relevant supporting quote in actuality mentions 70%?????????
Quote:
All the techniques studied at Shodokan Honbu were taught to Tomiki by Ueshiba M. Judo specific techniques are not and never were incorporated - there was a conscientious effort not to (Mochizuki took another tack and did incorporate). Since the discussion revolves around technique (specifically what atemi means), Kenji Tomiki's long association with Ueshiba M., is a valuable reference point. What makes it even more valuable is Tomiki's academic bent - he classified and named technique according to function. Relationships are very clear.

Again as an aside since you choose to play keeper of the faith I have yet to have any visitor to Shodokan Honbu or my dojo tell me that the techniques we perform are not Aikido.
Hold it. I'm not any sort of "keeper of the faith" and I couldn't care less about Tomiki-style (why even name it that if it's not different????) other than as a mild objection to your denial that there's any difference between Tomiki style and traditional Aikido... it's not logical and you're using it to avoid potential logic an the debate. I'm resisting your assertions logically, in other words, and you're now responding by going at me personally with "keeper of the faith". That's specious. From: http://www.aikidofaq.com/chiba_interview.html

May I ask a little about Aikido history: O Sensei was once invited to teach at the Kodokan by the founder of Judo, Dr. Jigoro Kano: did he accept?

At the time Kano Sensei was trying to consolidate the traditional Martial Arts of Japan, to help preserve them. That is why he asked O Sensei to come to the Kodokan to teach. But O Sensei refused: he felt that Aikido and Judo were so different that they should not be classed together. So instead Dr. Kano sent three of his senior students to study under O Sensei - Master Mochizuki and Master Murashige, and one other. I can't recall his name. They studied with O Sensei but returned every so often to the Kodokan to meet with Dr. Kano.

Was Tomiki Sensei the other master?

No. Tomiki Sensei came later. He combined Aikido and Judo: he would use Aikido for open distance in combat and judo for a closer Ma-ai (critical distance). I don't altogether agree with this idea, but Tomiki Sensei was a very good Martial Artist... and a real gentleman.
Quote:
Finally, although I don't consider myself an accomplished martial artist, mainly because I have been exposed to some truely greats, one can't blame me for getting a little tired of these constant suggestions that somehow you are and the rest of us heathan are not.
Cite, please, on the "constant suggestions" I'm making about my own greatness? All I see is a basic-level conversation of which I know some of the basics, yet so little that I don't even teach a class... yet somehow, despite being an amateur, I get faced with a select-few self-styled "teachers" who know little of these basics and try to dispense with this troubling thought by resorting constantly to personal discussion. Is there a solution to this problem of going for the personal whenever the discussion gets uncomfortable? I'm not sure, given your comments of record on what you think about kokyu, but there's certainly a way to debate a topic without the need to charge me with making statements you can't support with cites.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-08-2005, 11:16 AM   #165
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm not any sort of "keeper of the faith" and I couldn't care less about Tomiki-style (why even name it that if it's not different????) other than as a mild objection to your denial that there's any difference between Tomiki style and traditional Aikido... it's not logical and you're using it to avoid potential logic an the debate.
Can someone quote where this was said? My impression on Peter's claim was that the atemi waza shown in the links that Jun supplied on Shodokan Aikido were being taught at the Aikikai during the time that Tomiki was an Instructor there. So this type of atemi was part of Ueshiba M.'s atemi paradigm at a certain point in the Aikikai's development, and was also part of the syllabus. There was no mention or claim that Tomiki and Aikikai are exactly the same however.

Quote:
Was Tomiki Sensei the other master?

No. Tomiki Sensei came later. He combined Aikido and Judo: he would use Aikido for open distance in combat and judo for a closer Ma-ai (critical distance). I don't altogether agree with this idea, but Tomiki Sensei was a very good Martial Artist... and a real gentleman.
I guess all this shows is how little Chiba knew of Tomiki's approach to Aikido. Totally incorrect. What Tomiki himself "would use" is not what he formulated for the Shodokan Aikido system. I've heard that Chiba is an exceptional Aikidoka, but we can't be masters of everything.

I think Jun may have put this entire discussion in the right light with his posts towards alternative ways of not only reading the written Japanese regarding the word "atemi", but also providing a technical alternative to the common percussive/vital point atemi concept that comes from Ueshiba M.'s first 8th Dan.

Much of spoken language needs to be taken in their correct context to make any sense and that context often includes the individual's own perspective at the exact point in time. Who is to say that asked on another day the same man would not say that atemi is 70%, 99% or 100% Aikido? And more importantly, does it really matter to us today? Will it change how we train? Will we leave where we are and seek out an instructor who teaches with 90% atemi? For some this may be the case, for others the answer may be an obvious "No Way". We train in the places that we feel best suited to us, it does not mean that we must all the time try to do Ueshiba M.'s Aikido or become him. How many here wake up at 4AM and pray to all the Kami, meditate extensively, search into the secrets of Kotodama or even train the amount of hours daily that Ueshiba M. did when alive? Will we become like him if we do? Does it even matter? Half the time I think the old man will be laughing at all of this analysis and banter we do on something that was probably obvious to him.

I think in the end one has to reconcile how much of what Ueshiba M. said and did is reflected in one's own Aikido and then decide on its overall level of importance. After all, he is not the only one who understood Aiki. If we truly seek to understand Aiki, then Atemi's place and percentage within it, among other things, will become obvious as it must have been for Ueshiba M.

Gambatte.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 10-08-2005 at 11:30 AM.

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Old 10-08-2005, 11:31 AM   #166
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Can someone quote where this was said? My impression on Peter's claim was that the atemi waza shown in the links that Jun supplied on Shodokan Aikido were being taught at the Aikikai during the time that Tomiki was an Instructor there. So this type of atemi was part of Ueshiba M.'s atemi paradigm at a certain point in the Aikikai's development, and was also part of the syllabus. There was no mention or claim that Tomiki and Aikikai are exactly the same however.
The point of my original comment was that there is no indication that the video examples represent Aikido, Aikido atemi, etc., exactly, so to use them to define "atemi" with the added value of "percussion" was being questioned by me. So far, nothing has been said which invalidates that question. Certainly arguing that Shodokan represents the real and traditional Aikido because kata admittedly *made up* by Tomiki is the real goods, just won't fly as anything more than assertion. So let's get back to Atemi.
Quote:
I guess all this shows is how little Chiba knew of Tomiki's approach to Aikido. Totally incorrect. What Tomiki himself "would use" is not what he formulated for the Shodokan Aikido system. I've heard that Chiba is an exceptional Aikidoka, but we can't be masters of everything.
I'm just not used to these kinds of debates. On the lists I frequent the most, most people would address Chiba's individual points about Tomiki Aikido rather than selectively trivializing Chiba's comments. If Chiba doesn't know what he's talking about, you should mention that to him directly.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-08-2005, 11:33 AM   #167
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Mike,

The funny part is that Chiba practices all of those techniques from Tomiki that are in question here - and he certainly never labeled them as "Judo." Peter is correct in saying that those techniques are very common to every Aikido organization and dojo. No one in Aikido is ever going to be surprised to see them, nor will he or she be resistant to understanding them as Aikido (unless you are in one of those new offshoots where they say, "Aikido has no atemi" - but maybe not even then!). Perhaps this is where Lynn's question on Aikido experience does a play a part.

If one is going to go with experience here, as you often suggest one should, one has to drop the book knowledge (gained via Chiba's quote) and go with what folks are actually doing. All over the place, as one would find if he/she actually went all over the place, folks do these techniques and folks understand them as Aikido. Besides, nowhere in that quote does Chiba say that these techniques are Judo, are a combination of Judo and Aikido, or that they are not Aikido - which is what is more needed to address the techniques in question (which is where this all started).

And, Mike, one can't really be that blind - can he? Sooner or later when everyone is making you feel like they are just egocentrically adopting an unsupportable bias and/or selfishly hiding an ignorance from you, a more honest person would maybe take a second glance at what they were doing to cause such a continuous perception - at least an aikidoka would (especially one with decades of training under their belt like you have). I cannot think of one thread I've seen where you have not done what Peter is saying and where you have not interpreted folks' response to it thusly (i.e. inaccurately).

The (obvious) example you can't see here is when you say:

- I understand strikes this way.
- Accomplished martial artists (i.e. folks who know what they are talking about) all understand strikes this way.
- Since I understand strikes this way, I am an accomplished martial artist.
- Since you do not understand strikes this way (i.e. the way I do), you are not an accomplished martial artist.
- Since you are not an accomplished martial artist, your opinion on things is by default different from mine AND incorrect.
- I am right.

There are plenty of ways to make a point as innocently or as objectively as you would like to understand yourself to be doing - but you are not doing that. For example, one could have said what you are saying without any reference to the word "accomplished." I got to go with Peter on this one as well. Believe me, if you can ever figure out what you are doing to have folks respond to you in this way, I would be one of your biggest supporters (i.e. highly advocating your right to speak as a Chinese martial artists that has become accomplished in acquiring and transmitting very important skill-sets, etc.), and I would greatly look forward to hearing anything you might say. However, right now, it is indeed becoming like a broken record - which tends to always sound like: "I know kokyu and you do not."

for what its worth,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 10-08-2005, 11:49 AM   #168
L. Camejo
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Certainly arguing that Shodokan represents the real and traditional Aikido because kata admittedly *made up* by Tomiki is the real goods, just won't fly as anything more than assertion.
I think David hit the nail on the head again.

Mike, are you reading the same thread that everyone else is? You were unable to provide a quote to back up your last incorrect assertion and now you make another (see bold text above). No one is saying that Shodokan represents the real and traditional Aikido except yourself.

I agree with something else you said though - Back to atemi.

And whenever I see Chiba-san we'll chat a bit about the other thing.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:58 PM   #169
Mike Sigman
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
The funny part is that Chiba practices all of those techniques from Tomiki that are in question here
Go back through my posts where I said we were talking about the ATEMI NOT THE TECHNIQUES. Hopefully, after enough repetition, we also have it confirmed that the correct quote is 70%, not 90%. ATEMI!!!!!!
Quote:
Peter is correct in saying that those techniques are very common to every Aikido organization
Yes!!!! They are!!!! Go back and read where I was specific in talking about the ATEMI!!!!!!

David.... I was going to ask you what time it is, but I'm afraid my internet cache won't hold enough to capture your full answer.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-08-2005, 04:15 PM   #170
senshincenter
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Mike,

It's not that hard to follow - unless one has a serious case of denial.

The discussion went like this:

You said: "Well, the problem is that the clips, as good as they are, are from Tomiki's perspective of what Aikido is.... they're not from mainstream Aikido."

Peter said: " Anything I've seen in Tomiki Aikido I've seem in other major styles and vice versa."

You said: "Can you point me to Hombu Dojo clips/pictures showing that same series of atemi, then?"

Peter said: "are you telling me you haven't seen techniques done in a similar way in your Aikido travels. Three of the five are classic iriminage. Shomen-ate (first) and ushiro-ate (last) are less common but not exactly rare. Those clips are part of a kata series developed by Kenji Tomiki (while he was a member of the Aikikai I might add) from techniques that were quite typical."

You said: "I'm not sure what the discussion is about, Peter. You're supporting my comment directly by saying "Those clips are part of a kata series developed by Kenji Tomiki" (they're part of randorii techniques and mainstream Aikido does not have randorii) and yet you're questioning why I haven't seen them commonly in mainstream Aikido."

Forgetting the comment about randori for the moment - let's face it Mike, you probably don't have nearly enough exposure to the Aikido world to be making the kind of comments you always seem to make. The idea that one can have some knowledge regarding internal strength development, tying that to something a karateka said regarding kokyu, etc., will probably not even come close to turning some years of Aikido practice into a platform by which one can become THE authority on who is doing what in Aikido and who is not.

For a person claiming to be keen on being against vague conceptualizations, and for a person claiming to be keen on having reasonable discussion, you really should try to be more aware of how you always seem to feel no one is understanding what you are saying - you should also be aware of how your usual flag of "I know kokyu and no one else does" subverts all conversation. You should probably just start all of your posts with that tagline - maybe even seek to change the thread title with that tagline if you can. That way we can better positions ourselves elsewhere if we are more interested in discussion, or at least we could figure out that we are supposed to understand you while we are being restricted to not understanding you - so you can better have the monologue you so desire. Right? That has to be what you really want here? For why else would a person that is continually being reminded (by people that have for years managed to have conversations with others - with major disagreements and everything) that he is being too authoritarian actually tell one more person: "Hey, I know how to post, and you don't post like me, so you don't know how to post"? (i.e. " David.... I was going to ask you what time it is, but I'm afraid my internet cache won't hold enough to capture your full answer.")

Hey man - I wish you well, I'm just not interested in the monologues. Besides, I get what you are saying, every time you are saying it: "I know kokyu and you do not." It's not just that I don't believe it, which might have me participating in further discussions with you. It is more that I just try to live my life and practice my art so that I don't have to act out that way. It's not that big of deal, it's just a choice I make for myself.

It's just like the time - it's one time where you are at, it's another time where I am at. It's not one time for everyone, everywhere, as long as it is your time Mike.

Chiming out.

David M. Valadez
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Old 10-08-2005, 04:29 PM   #171
Charlie
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
...David.... I was going to ask you what time it is, but I'm afraid my internet cache won't hold enough to capture your full answer...
Was that a personal attack?

Charles Burmeister
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Old 10-08-2005, 05:14 PM   #172
Mike Sigman
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
It's not that hard to follow - unless one has a serious case of denial.

The discussion went like this:

You said: "Well, the problem is that the clips, as good as they are, are from Tomiki's perspective of what Aikido is.... they're not from mainstream Aikido."

Peter said: " Anything I've seen in Tomiki Aikido I've seem in other major styles and vice versa."
Anyway you cut that statement, up or down, there is no difference between Tomiki styles and other styles. Larry take note.
Quote:

You said: "Can you point me to Hombu Dojo clips/pictures showing that same series of atemi, then?"

Peter said: "are you telling me you haven't seen techniques done in a similar way in your Aikido travels. Three of the five are classic iriminage. [[snip]]
And there's the error that I keep pointing out... I'm talking about atemi and Peter and you are talking about "technique". About the third time, I give up.

As for the rest of it, I guess we'll always be on opposite sides of the fence, David. You teach Aikido but you don't know what ki and kokyu are, so you'll trivialize them. I don't teach Aikido but I do know what they are, without claiming any great credentials in these absolute BASICS for Aikido.

Mike
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Old 10-08-2005, 06:20 PM   #173
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Mike - that's hilarious you just did it again - you claim no great credential but fully (though silently) proclaim the right to look at what someone says and state that what they do is not ki or kokyu. Come on - you got to see that one???

I do not trivialize ki or kokyu - though I do not hold it up and qualify a person or his/her practice as meaningful based upon what kind of ki or kokyu tricks they can do.

I see things this way because I accept that there is more than one way to make any practice meaningful and also because, for me, doing a ki or kokyu trick is a far cry from actually employing ki or kokyu under spontaneous or hostile conditions. Having something be part of a skill set is not the same thing as trivializing it in total. It is merely refusing to trivialize everything else that is central to training - which is what you do. There's a clear distinction there.

Back when I actually took you seriously - in the spirit of open conversation - your words inspired me to see what you were doing - to take inventory on what I am doing, etc. In fact, they still do - the words you uttered back then (to the me that could afford you the benefit of the doubt back then). That is what these discussions are all about. So I purchased your video set on internal strength development. First, let me say that I liked them very much - as part of a skill set (which is actually how you presented such internal strength on the tapes). However, second, let me say that you are not doing anything different from what most folks in Aikido are doing who have a direct tie back to the Founder (which is a lot of folks mind you). If you do not know that - it goes back to your lack of experience with actual Aikido. From my lineage - Chiba and Iseri - you are doing the exact same thing (i.e. some of the drills and exercises are the exact same thing), but for any kind of tactical authenticity which is not present in your understanding of ki and kokyu (my opinion) - which in a way makes it very different from what most folks do with ki and kokyu in Aikido. (Folks should buy Mike's tapes, which I recommend, and form their own opinion as to this last remark.) This lack of tactical authenticity is probably what makes you lean toward ki and kokyu tricks and is also what probably makes you lean to a singular centrality of one aspect that has always been part of a larger skill set for anybody that actually wants to use the art in question in real life under real conditions.

I guess that had me chiming back in, but it was too hard to pass up the "You see, you did it again." Now you don't have to ask anyone to point out a specific example of where you do what folks say you do. You just have to see that you cannot seem to speak outside of this model of yours.

Last edited by senshincenter : 10-08-2005 at 06:26 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 10-08-2005, 07:33 PM   #174
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm talking about atemi and Peter and you are talking about "technique".
The atemi that Peter is talking about *is* technique. Or, if you prefer, the technique that Peter is talking about *is* atemi.

Sean
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Old 10-08-2005, 07:39 PM   #175
eyrie
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Correct me if I'm wrong, but atemi (percussive or otherwise) is an integral aspect of aikido technique, and not something separate unto itself. i.e. one does not do atemi (percussive or otherwise) in and of itself, independent of aikido-waza.

Secondly, if atemi is X% of aikido (or vice versa), what makes up the other Y%?

Ignatius
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