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Old 10-06-2005, 07:16 PM   #126
eyrie
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Which bit are you referring to?

Ignatius
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:35 PM   #127
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I was going to refrain from this topic as I do believe this is something one has to discover for their "aiki" self. I will impart a word from experience and the advice given to me from the cirrent head of AAA, Andy Sato, He said, and I agree, that you will not make it through randori unless you use atemi.

Let me say that I agree that one will not last long through randori without atemi or more to the point "unbendable arm". As many of us more seasoned aikidoka know, it is not practical to implement beautiful, drawn out technique during randori. It must be quick and effective.

I know this is not a randori thread but it is the perfect example of atemi.
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:41 PM   #128
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

This is a better example.
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:50 PM   #129
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Perhaps it's the way I'm verbalizing it....

I don't mean "strike" as in "strike". "Unbendable arm" perhaps. But I was visualizing "peng", "ji" or "an" more so than "punch". Maybe that's wrong too.

Ignatius
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:08 PM   #130
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

[QUOTEAtemi dose NOT mean a strike delivered with the hand or foot or knee or elbow or what ever SPECIFICALLY. An atemi is only a blow to the body, that blow can come from anything, a rock, a frying pan or what ever else. [/quote]

Sandai doshu defines atemi in Best Aikido as a strike to a vital point.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:09 PM   #131
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

P.S. Brad. Andy Sato is current head of the Aikido World Alliance, he is the former chief instructor of the AAA. He has not been with AAA for about 11 months.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:21 PM   #132
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Sandai doshu defines atemi in Best Aikido as a strike to a vital point.
How about the founder and the second Do-shu? I don't remember any quotes from them in relation to "vital points" (could someone provide the original quote from the Japanese on this one, please?). Given the amount of film and video out there, I think it's hard to make an exact case that Dim Mak (Din Xue) is the only focus of atemi.... atemi being a fairly general word. Besides, Shioda Kancho (who studied directly under Ueshiba) makes no mention of "vital points"... he even mentions striking with his back for atemi.

"Vital points", IF someone really knows them and how to hit them, can be an interesting study and a good place to focus on during a strike, IF the opportunity presents itself, but it's a bit naive to think that atemi only covers vital points. Instead of the trendy focus on "vital points", that became the de rigeur discussion in the last decade, a la Dillman, perhaps people should remember the old Xingyi axiom of "my opponent can hit me as many times as he can; I only want to hit him once." Good atemi should leave a lasting impression.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:31 PM   #133
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

The word atemi in the Japanese language seems simply to mean a strike to the body. It brakes down like atarue (no idea how to spell it) to strike, and mi, as in body, Atemi. I don't speak Japanese but the kanji brakes down like that. http://users.erols.com/ziring/kanji/atemi.gif

-Chris Hein
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:46 PM   #134
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

To throw another piece of fodder into the discussion...

Kenji Tomiki sensei called the first five techniques (shomen ate, aigamae ate, gyakugamae ate, gedan ate, and ushiro ate) the "atemi waza" portion of his 17 basic randori techniques. You can see animated versions of these here and here.

The times I've received a good shomen ate or any of the other techniques in the atemi waza portion, I can't say any of them were percussive at all; on the contrary, they felt nothing like getting struck.

Just some thoughts.

-- Jun

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Old 10-06-2005, 10:09 PM   #135
Mike Sigman
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
The times I've received a good shomen ate or any of the other techniques in the atemi waza portion, I can't say any of them were percussive at all; on the contrary, they felt nothing like getting struck.
Well, the problem is that the clips, as good as they are, are from Tomiki's perspective of what Aikido is.... they're not from mainstream Aikido.

Secondly, even without being "percussive", I can generate fairly large power in each of those techniques, even if I just put my hand on someone before I do the generating. That power can be learned from suburi done correctly, IMO.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:33 PM   #136
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, the problem is that the clips, as good as they are, are from Tomiki's perspective of what Aikido is.... they're not from mainstream Aikido.
Anything I've seen in Tomiki Aikido I've seem in other major styles and vice versa. What's your point Mike - I think Jun's inclusion of them as an example defines exactly what atemi waza means with respect to Aikido.

Quote:
Secondly, even without being "percussive", I can generate fairly large power in each of those techniques, even if I just put my hand on someone before I do the generating. That power can be learned from suburi done correctly, IMO.
Perhaps its just me but this makes no sense. I can generate power before I generate power - time doesn't work like that. Let's just put that down to typing too quickly.

The key to the techniques shown in the animated gifs isn't percussion but manipulating the body coupled with Ido Ryoko (Power of movement).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:54 PM   #137
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Perhaps we have too limited definition of atemi.

In the cited source Total Aikido: The Master Course by Gozo Shioda (Kodansha 1996) on page 24 he states;

"The founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said "In real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent."

later on the page he continues;

"Strikes as they are used in aikido are not limited to just hitting with the fist or tegatana (side of the hand). If you make contact with the uke with focused power, that is atemi, so it is possible to use your shoulder, your back, or any part of you body to make the atemi."

BTW, I like heavy bags, double end bags, and speed bags for solo practice and focus mitts if I have a partner. While traditionally trained in Isshnryu vertical fist and Wing Chun sun fist, I actually prefer boxing (jab, cross, hook, and uppercut) with the occasional wing Chun straight blast, add in the knees and elbows, along with shins and kicks. Most of the people in class already have a background so we spend very little time directly on striking.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:56 PM   #138
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Anything I've seen in Tomiki Aikido I've seem in other major styles and vice versa. What's your point Mike - I think Jun's inclusion of them as an example defines exactly what atemi waza means with respect to Aikido.
Hi Peter: Can you point me to Hombu Dojo clips/pictures showing that same series of atemi, then?
Quote:
Peter Rehse says wrote:
Quote:
Mike sez wrote:
Secondly, even without being "percussive", I can generate fairly large power in each of those techniques, even if I just put my hand on someone before I do the generating. That power can be learned from suburi done correctly, IMO.
Perhaps its just me but this makes no sense. I can generate power before I generate power - time doesn't work like that. Let's just put that down to typing too quickly.
I realize that it might not make sense to you, but I can do what I said. You may have never seen it. My point being that seeing two people demonstrate stylized versions of "atemi" doesn't tell me a lot, even if it is a video of "Aikido" or "Tomiki Aikido" or whatever. I.e., I can't be certain that the "non-percussive" effect represents anything more than a stylized version, in those clips, so the point Jun was attempting to make gets clouded by "maybe's". That's all I was saying. Jun could have pre-empted my comment by simply making the caveat that these "atemi's" may or may not represent the actual power they are meant to represent.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:20 PM   #139
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Mike - are you telling me you haven't seen techniques done in a similar way in your Aikido travels. Three of the five are classic iriminage. Shomen-ate (first) and ushiro-ate (last) are less common but not exactly rare. Those clips are part of a kata series developed by Kenji Tomiki (while he was a member of the Aikikai I might add) from techniques that were quite typical.

I use all of these techniques in full resistance randori (I personally think I limit myself to them too much) and they are (as Jun pointed out) non-percussive. Jun is pretty mainstream Aikikai - he had no trouble understanding the relationship. The effect you see in the kata is pretty much what you see when the technique is performed correctly (perfect timing) in randori.

I reread your generation of power statement again. Perhaps you wish to rewrite it at the moment it is contradictory.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:42 PM   #140
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

"The founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said "In real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent."

In real battle, it's probably way over 70% cutting someone up with a sword or spear, I don't think there was a lot of punching kicking or shoulder strokes going on in "real battle". Ask a modern solider how much punching and kicking they do on the battle field, I'm sure it's less then 1%. Soldiers use tools to achieve their goals, tools like guns and bombs of today, or swords and spears of olden times. The translation of "real battle" is interesting, what was the direct statement in Japanese?

"Perhaps we have too limited definition of atemi." -Lynn Seiser

Atemi (当身, thanx Jun) can definatly be more then just the hand, it can be anything on earth that hits you.

I'm sure that in his book Gozo Shioda was talking about punching kicking and other unarmed blows, it's clear this is what he is going for (or at least his translator was, was this book written in english by him?). However what O-sensei ment could be another thing all together, possibly something that Shioda didn't understand. I've always heard "Aikido is 90% atemi", my teacher told me that this was something Saito said came from O-sensei. Now this is a statement handed down 3 times before it got to me, so who knows what O-sensei said directly, however I don't believe that Gozo Shioda is the only one O-Sensei said this too. While Shiodas take on it is as it is, maybe Saito's is different, and maybe Tohei's was different even yet. What I'm saying is the just of the saying is roughly, Aikido is mostly atemi, and I think this is what we should be asking ourselves instead trusting what we have read as gospel.

-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 10-06-2005 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:54 PM   #141
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
"The founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said "In real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent."
[snip]
The translation of "real battle" is interesting, what was the direct statement in Japanese?
Funny -- I was just flipping through Shioda sensei's original Japanese edition of "Aikido Shugyo." He writes:
Quote:
Gozo Shioda wrote:
私の師匠であるところの植芝盛平先生も次のように言っておられました。
「実践における合気道は、当身が七分、投げが三分」
-- Jun

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Old 10-07-2005, 12:14 AM   #142
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
"The founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said "In real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent." In real battle, it's probably way over 70% cutting someone up with a sword or spear, I don't think there was a lot of punching kicking or shoulder strokes going on in "real battle". Ask a modern solider how much punching and kicking they do on the battle field, I'm sure it's less then 1%. Soldiers use tools to achieve their goals, tools like guns and bombs of today, or swords and spears of olden times.
Agree completely. I have always like Japanese type Martial art for its minimalistic approach. Atemi is, in my mind, the shortest and minimalist technique to score a victory/ippon.

Boon.

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Old 10-07-2005, 03:45 AM   #143
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

ATEMI = PAIN therefore COMPLIANT UKE which produces a Happy Shite / Nage / Tori.

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Old 10-07-2005, 05:58 AM   #144
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Chris:
About 4 years ago I would've agreed.
Except the "yari"/"bo" training I've been doing with my teacher here in Tokyo has produced exactly those results. You actually DO strike exactly as you would use the weapon. (And yes he's fought full contact, plus he's used this different kind of striking to dominate kickboxers/ shoot boxers etc)
I'm not sure, but did you mention elsewhere that your instructor had a CMA background? I've read that Hsing Yi (sp?) has an explicit spear -> fist connection so being taught to move your body to power a punch in the same way that you'd power a spear thrust seems very reasonable.

(Or are you arguing the stronger position that your spear work is tying directly into all strikes - be they roundhouse kicks, elbow strikes etc?)
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:29 AM   #145
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I've read somewhere that O'sensei said that "atemi does not need to hit physically, but it needs to hit the soul".

I don't know if he really said this, or if it has a different source. Nevertheless, it has a point: Atemi breaks uke's balance, be it physically or mentally. I believe that this is the true point of atemi, not to end the battle.

If the purpose of atemi was to hurt/kill uke and win the battle, aikido would look more like other martial arts like karate, wing chun, tae kwon do or boxing.

Atemi is, in my opinion, the key to open the door to a technique. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:54 AM   #146
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

[quote=Mike Sigman . . "people should remember the old Xingyi axiom of "my opponent can hit me as many times as he can; I only want to hit him once." Good atemi should leave a lasting impression." Regards, Mike Sigman[/QUOTE]

I realize vital or pressure points are popular topics ala Dillman and the Dim Mak mystique, however, given your statement on leaving a last impression it would seem to me that the most effective way to do that is to atemi a pressure or vital point. I use various applications to position uke for a technique or set up a technique. The problem with vital or pressure points is that they don't work well on everyone, although some can be sensitized over time. I guess my point is, if you are going to use atemi then it ought to be used in the most effective way possible. Since pressure/vital points are often near nerves or blood vessels then striking such points is more likely to have the desired effect.
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:14 AM   #147
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Mike - are you telling me you haven't seen techniques done in a similar way in your Aikido travels. Three of the five are classic iriminage. Shomen-ate (first) and ushiro-ate (last) are less common but not exactly rare. Those clips are part of a kata series developed by Kenji Tomiki (while he was a member of the Aikikai I might add) from techniques that were quite typical.
I'm not sure what the discussion is about, Peter. You're supporting my comment directly by saying "Those clips are part of a kata series developed by Kenji Tomiki" (they're part of randorii techniques and mainstream Aikido does not have randorii) and yet you're questioning why I haven't seen them commonly in mainstream Aikido. The discussion is about atemi, not the particular "techniques" like "classic iriminage". Jun's comment, to which I was responding, was that in the use of those kata/atemi they did not feel percussive; i.e., as atemi they did not feel like body strikes. My response was that it's hard to say if the "atemi" used in those practice drills actually represent the full atemi, as originally intended, so it's difficult to say much definitively.
Quote:
I use all of these techniques in full resistance randori (I personally think I limit myself to them too much) and they are (as Jun pointed out) non-percussive. Jun is pretty mainstream Aikikai - he had no trouble understanding the relationship. The effect you see in the kata is pretty much what you see when the technique is performed correctly (perfect timing) in randori.
I don't get the point. We could look at clips of Shioda performing atemi and some of those are most certainly "percussive". Whether an atemi is percussive or not (and some of them certainly are, regardless of any kata or randorii performed in Tomiki-style) is not really an important-enough side-issue to dwell on, much less to consider it resolved based on some clips from Tomiki training methods (they're good clips, BTW).
Quote:
I reread your generation of power statement again. Perhaps you wish to rewrite it at the moment it is contradictory.
I don't think it's contradictory and neither will anyone else who has a fairly comprehensive grasp of atemi. I can touch someone in a non-percussive way, as shown in some of those clips, and *then* release enough power to send them through the air or damage their body.... so being "non-percussive" isn't definitive in all senses of the word "atemi". This is all part of the greater discussion about how fully people actually understand atemi, atemi-training, etc., and how the limits of it may be outside of the level of some discussions seen on this forum. I.e., the "final word" shouldn't be reached for so quickly.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:31 AM   #148
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I guess my point is, if you are going to use atemi then it ought to be used in the most effective way possible. Since pressure/vital points are often near nerves or blood vessels then striking such points is more likely to have the desired effect.
I agree with that statement in principle and pressure points (vital points, acu-points, meridian-striking, whatever) would indeed be an ideal way of hitting. However, in complete point-striking, as done in the traditional way, you "hit with your ki"... i.e., we're back to discussing ki and kokyu development in your atemi, which supercedes the actual point-striking.

Secondly, as you've noted and as has been demonstrated in test settings, point-striking isn't always effective. There was an embarrassing television documentary showing one of Dillman's fat teachers (Tom Cameron... should still be a file of the Fox News interview, etc., someonewhere on the net) knocking out his students with various point-strikes and "touches" and then the TV people took him over to the local BJJ gym and none of his stuff worked. Getting away from the amateurs, I'm aware of a challenge that took place in Beijing about ten years where a real, not amateur, dim mak expert struck one of Feng Zhi Qiang's students on various points and the "victim" just stood there and looked at him, unphased. Sometimes these things work, sometimes they don't.... you can't always pick your opponent, though. It needs to be strongly emphasized that one of the traditional requirements for real point-striking is that you be able to strike *very hard*. It is the training for striking very hard, using ki/kokyu, that is (IMO) far more important than worrying too much about the points. Although granted some points make great targets of choice, when available.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:37 AM   #149
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ian Thake wrote:
I'm not sure, but did you mention elsewhere that your instructor had a CMA background? I've read that Hsing Yi (sp?) has an explicit spear -> fist connection so being taught to move your body to power a punch in the same way that you'd power a spear thrust seems very reasonable.

(Or are you arguing the stronger position that your spear work is tying directly into all strikes - be they roundhouse kicks, elbow strikes etc?)
The 5 basic strikes in Xingyi are indeed supposed to derive from various spear strikes, but perhaps a better way to think of those 5 basic strike practices is that they represent 5 different ways in which the dantien is trained to move the body when releasing power. Extrapolating quickly ahead, there could be some confusion in discussing dantien-powered movements in a martial style/forum that mainly uses hip-powered movements and, in reality, a lot of arm-powered techniques.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-07-2005, 11:05 AM   #150
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Ian,
Yes I have spent some time training in Xing yi, and to the best of my knowledge Xing yi does come from Ji Long Feng, who was a very famous spear fighter. After study I would agree, that the foundation of xing yi came from spear fighting, the way you use your body in a line, and the 3 physical harmonies are ready evidence of this. However as I have told many people many times, xing yi was later developed for empty handed fighting. It's not like a spear fighter set down his spear one day and was a great boxer. It's probably closer to a great spear fighter got board when war time was over, and started getting in local fights, likely he realized that his body use was good from all the spear fighting, and he developed a boxing system on this idea. I've heard that the ideas of western boxing came from european fencing technique also, however it was still developed as an unarmed fighting system. No one (that I have seen) has developed Aikido techniques into an unarmed boxing system. Hitting bags and sparring with gloves are effective ways of becoming a boxer not swinging a stick.

"I've read somewhere that O'sensei said that "atemi does not need to hit physically, but it needs to hit the soul". "-Jostein Pettersen

Not saying that O-sensei didn't say this but the kanji for atemi is 当身, basically strike and body. If he didn't mean to physically hit the body, then adding the mi (身) to ate (当)seems unnessisary.

John,
I think we all need to define the word pressure point. If you mean that the face, solar plexus and the liver are all pressure points, I'm all in, those are great places to punch someone. However if you mean hitting meridian 12 at 6pm (the hour of the rat) with the chunza fist, then I think it's a bunch of malarkey. Boxers get hit everywhere all the time, and we never see them discussing "pressure points". When NHB first hit the seen why didn't Dillmans guys go and clean up?

-Chris Hein

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