Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-02-2005, 06:12 PM   #26
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,632
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
James Bostwick wrote:
Yes, I am trying to make a point, and here it is: the statement that atemi is 90% of Aikido is too specific to be taken any other way than literally. To an outside martial artist, it is yet another example of the confused conglomerate of philosophically-driven individuals, looking to hitch their personal ideologies to the star of Ueshiba, that largely make up the vocal culture of Aikido.

It's a martial platitude that allows an insecure Aikidoka to exclaim that no matter what you see on the mat, and no matter how unrealistic and ineffective it may appear, always remember that Aikido is in fact mostly atemi.

The notion that Aikido is mostly atemi, is ridiculous, unless it's some sort of invisible stealth percussion. Even so, basic logic dictates that you don't learn things through osmosis. To simply imply that atemi is possible is not the same thing as actually training to strike an opponent's body. If one extends the definition of atemi to encompass kuzushi, suki, or whatever Japanese term we thow into the mix, that still doesn't effectively justify the explicitness of the claim.



If by narrow definition you mean literal interpretation, then yes. And it is not wrong, you are mixing disruption with atemi--related, but not exactly the same.

Let's say that the statement under scrutiny were this: Aikido relies heavily on the disruption of a person's attacking intent. This application of martial principle not only creates openings, it awakens a practitioner's awareness to the general concept of suki. At advanced levels, this forced loss of an opponent's equilibrium can manifest at range, before physical contact is even made. Such a fundamental is the cornerstone of effective Aiki.

IF that were the claim, you'd get no argument from me. But to say that 90% of Aikido is atemi is sloppy intellectualism in comparison. As Chris Hein pointed out, few if any arts can claim such a high ratio of percussive application. And I might also add, if they were lining up for categorization, Aikido would be at the bottom of the list.



That was not my point. I don't look for reasons to avoid atemi, I prefer it to grappling actually. My point was that if I'm close enough to throw, I'm close enough to hit, so your claim that I could not throw you if I could not hit you is technically accurate, even if it was meant as a quasi-postural challenge.



It is true that if you are not hitting, you are not training to hit. You must hit something to claim competency in strikes (person, makiwara, even the air with full extension and intensity, breeds some competency.) Anything else is just pretend; Aikido has enough of that already.

James,
I always have to laugh after our exchanges... after much back and forth I always end up in the place where I don't feel we are in much disagreement at all, just wedded to using different terminology and perhaps shading our emphasis slightly differently. Time will tell whether our different approaches make any difference at all in the quality of student we turn out or whether the differences were really not that crucial in the long run. Always good to spar with you; you make a worthy opponent.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2005, 06:21 PM   #27
sanskara
 
sanskara's Avatar
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
James,
I always have to laugh after our exchanges... after much back and forth I always end up in the place where I don't feel we are in much disagreement at all, just wedded to using different terminology and perhaps shading our emphasis slightly differently. Time will tell whether our different approaches make any difference at all in the quality of student we turn out or whether the differences were really not that crucial in the long run. Always good to spar with you; you make a worthy opponent.
- George
Likewise.

Regards,
James Bostwick
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2005, 07:44 PM   #28
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,100
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

"Yes, I am trying to make a point, and here it is: the statement that atemi is 90% of Aikido is too specific to be taken any other way than literally."

But lumping everyone who says this into the realm of worthless pseudo-intellectualism, including the founder himself, is not a hyperbole?
I prefer to view atemi (all action, really) like I view a concept of energy described by physics. Both moving objects and objects at rest within a gravitational field can be simply described as having "energy." "Potetial" and "kinetic" are terms used to distinguish between the two, but both are still "energetic." Perhaps i am incorrect in thinking this way, but it has been a working model so far. My understanding of atemi is that if one is shown they are open to a strike, they will respond to the situation which has occured. If they do not, then the potential energy of the strike must manifest into kinetic energy, either relatively gentle (Aikido's ideal), or violently so. So it seems to me the real matter here is over who has the ultimate authority of saying how one ought comunicate an idea. Personally, i'm a big fan of abstract methods as a means of provoking creative thought. Am i obliged to be more specific and describe objects at rest as being "relatively" at rest since no object we know of can be said to be truly at rest? I mean, where does the line get drawn as to how specific one's language must be? By your own reasoning shouldn't you have said, "I don't love those who say atemi is 90% of Aikido but don't actually practice atemi 90% of the time..." to account for those who may indeed take it literally? That so many seem to think you're making an over-generalization seems that this is a reasonable conclusion to me. Or are you saying that the use of numbers is where the proverbial line gets drawn?

"It's a martial platitude that allows an insecure Aikidoka to exclaim that no matter what you see on the mat, and no matter how unrealistic and ineffective it may appear, always remember that Aikido is in fact mostly atemi."

I've been "bopped" several times because i wasn't aware of an atemi while training at my home dojo, so I don't view my actual experience as being heavily theoretical and i've been told by senior students that Aikido is 70% atemi though I've not been hit 70% of the time.
By the way, I understand my experience is relatively slight and, being that human perception is often fallible, I take my own impressions with a large grain of salt. Please don't mistake my thoughts as being held as absolute truth, though I know I often come across that way.

"The notion that Aikido is mostly atemi, is ridiculous, unless it's some sort of invisible stealth percussion."

I disagree in that for it to be invisible/stealthy, it would by nature not be perceived by the attacker and that is the exact opposite of the point of atemi as I understand it.

"...that still doesn't effectively justify the explicitness of the claim."

Ueshiba Sensei was not often explicit, from what I've read of what he's said. Taken into this context, as with the example of "4-direction throw," I think it's safe to say you can't take the literal approach to deciphering some or much of the language used in Aikido. Perhaps to an outside perspective it is meaningless, but in a way that only makes sense given your point about learning through osmosis. Ueshiba Sensei didn't say people could learn by watching, if I remember correctly, but rather that you have to experience it first-hand. Taken into context, remarks like these make perfect sense to me.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-02-2005 at 07:49 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2005, 09:27 AM   #29
pezalinski
 
pezalinski's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Harvard (IL)
Location: harvard, IL
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 159
United_States
Offline
Disgust Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

"But to say that 90% of Aikido is atemi is sloppy intellectualism in comparison. As Chris Hein pointed out, few if any arts can claim such a high ratio of percussive application."


Question: Does an atemi actually have to manifest as a physical impact on Uke by Nage in order for the atemi to affect Uke?

Answer: NO. Uke can react to the atemi, in as much as he perceives it, before it connects -- And, if that reaction is sufficient to move uke in a direction or manner that Nage intends, Nage can take advanage of that. Uke's Choice : Be hit or move.

Corrollary: Uke can react to a threat he perceives, even if Nage does not intend such a threat...Uke's Choice: Move because you could be hit.

Corrollary: Uke can be trained to move in a way to minimize the number of atemi he is open to when taking ukemi - good posture, safe placement, maintain connection, zanshin, etc.

Corrollary: Nage can be trained to respond to an attack in such a way as to minimize the number of atemi he is open to. (Hence Tenkan, Irimi, etc.).

Conclusion: Your choice, as Uke or as Nage: Be hit or move. Therein lies AIKIDO -- Atemi is required. Not occasionally, but everytime .

Split hairs as to whether atemi is 70% or 99% or 99.99999% of your training (maybe you spend 30% of your training in seiza in meditation); I don't care. The reality is simple:

No atemi = no technique, for either Uke or Nage.


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

"Helping the planet make an impact on people, since 1985"
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2005, 10:43 AM   #30
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
No atemi = no technique, for either Uke or Nage
damn - I knew I've been doing something wrong... the problem with blanket statements is that 90% of the time they're wrong!

Joking aside, I'm with James on this one. Certainly my atemi (= strike in this case, not the notional body versions) are limited, with training generally involved more with blending with what is given than imposing a particular technique. Atemi in a static or "dead" situation/grapple to create movement, fine. Assigning the term atemi to the initial cut/parry e.g. in a tenchi-nage, also fine, but as a straight up I hit then do technique, nope, but that's probably just me.

One of the problems I have with the notion of the single strike then finish is the same one alluded to by James. People can take a hell of a lot more damage than you'd expect and I've known one or two people who can and will quite happily eat a single punch or so to get their grubby little mits on you before tearing you apart like rice paper. Now as I've not seen any ma based on striking claim a 100% success rate with a single punch, the idea that most aikidoka have it is slightly strange.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2005, 10:49 AM   #31
Hagen Seibert
Dojo: TendoRyu
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 110
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Many thanks to Peter Goldsbury, Tom Yawata, Soon-Kian Phang and Charles Burmeister for posting their sources.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2005, 11:03 AM   #32
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I've seen several people who can take tremendously hard blows and not flinch. I've also seen these people spar, taking several shots on the way in so they can grab you and throw you down. These people don't react to actual blows, little lone pretend ones. Dose this mean you can't do Aikido with these people?

I believe the statement(aikido 90% atemi) to be an internal statement and not an external one. It's not about what I can do to him, it's what he is trying to do to me, and how I blend with that action.

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2005, 01:22 PM   #33
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

My old sensei, Bob Galeone, is a tough dude. (so I am!).

He would state over and over that aikido in practice is an art of cooperation, if someone wants to stop you from doing a technique in the training environment than they can. However, he would also demonstrate that it opens you up in other areas, but that is not the nature or within the confines of the "kata" that the instructor is trying to teach. So what is the point?

Aikido, as practices, is a controlled training methodology designed to convey the lessons and principles of the art. It is not about trading blows or seeing who is tougher.

Atemi against a well balanced opponent unless striking a vital area pretty much will not work, most anyone of substance can withstand the blow. However, when you "open the up" or unbalance them, it is an entirely different matter.

Yup, I am one of those guys that will take several blows/kicks (controlling where you place them mind you!) to allow for my to close the distance and get a hand/grip on you so I can take you down. I do this all the time when doing NHB stuff.

However, in aikido, it is not within the context of the practice to do so since aikido is concerned with principles and theory. While the techniques employed in aikido are sound, don't confuse that with being "real"

So, yes, Chris, I agree with you, it is philosophical in nature to state that aikido is 90% atemi, since by it's nature, aikido is a DO/WAY/philosophical art.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2005, 05:51 PM   #34
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

hat's not where I was going with it, but thanx for agreeing....

I was just talking about the use of atemi as a "faint" vs. its use as an actual blow, has nothing at all to do with the discussion "Aikido is 90% atemi". Both can be effective (weather it is a pretend blow that makes them move, or an actual blow that knocks them a bit silly), but effectiveness is not what's being talked about, neither is the practice of cooperative forms.

We are asking why O-sensei would make a statement like "Aikido is 90% atemi". I believe he was not talking at all about what nage can or would do to uke, but in fact what uke is trying to do to nage, and more so the nature of when one would use the principle of "aiki". When someone is trying to strike you (with anything) aiki is a useful skill to have, thus the way of aiki is most useful (maybe 90% of the time) when someone is trying to strike you.

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 06:59 AM   #35
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Hi Chris,

Interesting proposition. Do you have any quotes from source material?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 07:49 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
It is one of the koans of Aikido to solve this in your training and understand what is meant by it.
Since when does Aikido have "koans"? If teachers know something that is basic and important, shouldn't they just teach it instead of pretending that Aikido becomes part Zen and obscure whenever they don't know something well enough and factually enough to teach it bluntly and correctly?

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 10:47 AM   #37
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,632
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Since when does Aikido have "koans"? If teachers know something that is basic and important, shouldn't they just teach it instead of pretending that Aikido becomes part Zen and obscure whenever they don't know something well enough and factually enough to teach it bluntly and correctly?

Mike
Actually, these things are often stated quite clearly. The atemi issue was made quite clear when I started. The Koan issue is my own, it was not my teachre's. But my understanding of what was meant changed over the years after tens of thousands of hours of practice. That doesn't mean that something was purposely withheld, it just meant that when I had five years in, there was no way my understanding could match a man who had 35 years in.

I think you must have an issue here with something... I don't know what. Anyway, if explaining something clearly and demonstrating something clearly were sufficient to pass on fifty years of experience, a fifty year teacher would be able to create a student of the same ability in a very short time. If anyone in history has managed to do this I am unaware of it...

Frankly, Aikido has lots of "koans". There are all sorts of places in Aikido when things seem contradictory and one has to discover how the resolve those seeming contradictions. These things can't be "taught" although the teacher can model the answers. But getting that answer into ones body at a level where that wisdom is automatic requires much practice and frustration before the "answers" become apparent.

As you can see from the above discussion, various parties have made their points of view eminently clear yet there is no agreement. When I am on the mat, what I do is based on the previously described principles. I can do it, I know I can do it, I can teach it, and my students are on the track of understanding the principles in the manner I do. But I am sure that the teachers who've posted above who disagree with me can say the same. That seems like a pretty good "koan" to me.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 11:05 AM   #38
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Actually, these things are often stated quite clearly. The atemi issue was made quite clear when I started. The Koan issue is my own, it was not my teachre's. But my understanding of what was meant changed over the years after tens of thousands of hours of practice. That doesn't mean that something was purposely withheld, it just meant that when I had five years in, there was no way my understanding could match a man who had 35 years in.

I think you must have an issue here with something...
I thought I was being reasonably clear about my feeling toward obscurata... I have an issue with it being used as a "stay with it, son, and someday you'll understand what I do" sort of argument. Nothing personal. I'm just saying that there are no "koans" in Aikido (Aikido is not a Zen Buddhist sect or training methodology) and there is no reason to argue on the basis of vagaries and appeal to authority ("I have been teaching x-number years so I win the argument", etc.).
Quote:
I don't know what. Anyway, if explaining something clearly and demonstrating something clearly were sufficient to pass on fifty years of experience, a fifty year teacher would be able to create a student of the same ability in a very short time. If anyone in history has managed to do this I am unaware of it...
I think we're moving off topic ... I never said or implied that all the knowledge of a multi-year teacher can be passed on in a short time. My statement has more to do with basic training concepts and how simply they can be stated. "Aikido Shugyo", for example, makes a number of attempts at explaining basic concepts (including atemi) in non-esoteric terminology, while not approaching the implication that someone can bypass years of experience in all concepts in the art.
Quote:
Frankly, Aikido has lots of "koans". There are all sorts of places in Aikido when things seem contradictory and one has to discover how the resolve those seeming contradictions. These things can't be "taught" although the teacher can model the answers. But getting that answer into ones body at a level where that wisdom is automatic requires much practice and frustration before the "answers" become apparent.
. OK, that's your opinion, but I would add to your comment that all one has to do is look at the level of Aikido in general to get the idea that "getting the answer" often seems to wind up with "getting the wrong answer, even after years of experience, and then passing it on to trusting students". In other words, these intuitive grasps of concepts that take years to acquire can lead to the wrong answers... and that needs to be recognized. It's sort of in the vein of "do this exotic practice for many years and you will wind up with Ki" ... unfortunately, I know a lot of people that did everything, believed all the "koans" and exotic reasoning, and wound up with nothing but some cooperative training routines and a black skirt. I.e., I think these esoteric quips about "koans" can be disappointingly empty and I suggest that basics can be described without vagaries.

My opinion, FWIW.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 11:33 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
I'm just saying that there are no "koans" in Aikido (Aikido is not a Zen Buddhist sect or training methodology)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=aikido+zen

seems to show that at least some people draw a connection between aikido and zen. Personally, I think connections between zen and the martial arts in japan are often overstated (in lieu of the connections to mikkyo in classical arts), but hey, if Chiba Shihan uses it for a vehicle, then who am I to quibble? Even though shinto is the obvious historical match for aikido. As for koans:

Quote:
A puzzling, often paradoxical statement or story, used in Zen Buddhism as an aid to meditation and a means of gaining spiritual awakening.
I'm not sure I buy into the whole spiritual awakening thingy, but I have found many things in aikido (even within the same style) that are paradoxical. I suppose literary license could be used to 'borrow' the term, couldn't it?

Quote:
and there is no reason to argue on the basis of vagaries and appeal to authority ("I have been teaching x-number years so I win the argument", etc.).
Maybe its just me, but I didn't see that being the thrust of anyone's arguement.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-04-2005 at 11:38 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 11:44 AM   #40
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I think connections between zen and the martial arts in japan are often overstated
I agree.
Quote:
(About "Koans" in Aikido)I suppose literary license could be used to 'borrow' the term, couldn't it?
Suits me. I don't think a literary allusion changes the facts about what I said, though. If there are specified "koans" in Aikido, I'm happy to view them and concede my error. The problem with these vague usages of esoteric terms is that they are often presented, without caveat, as fact. That was the gist of my comment. I.e., it's my opinion, just as George has his.
Quote:
(About many years of experience being the raison d'etre for the suggestion of "koans")Maybe its just me, but I didn't see that being the thrust of anyone's arguement.
The idea of "years of experience providing the clue to mysteries" wasn't contributed by me to the discussion, though, thrust or not.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 11:46 AM   #41
Paul D. Smith
 
Paul D. Smith's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 26
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

In my mind, Ledyard Sensei hit it right on the head. In my mind, a koan is nothing until it is filled with the kiai of the one seeking to solve the answer; and the path is resolved by shugyo.

A purported saying of O'Sensei ("Aikido is 99% atemi"), a doka of Tesshu ("Swordsmanship: I am not struck nor is my opponent hit; unobstructed I move in and attain the ultimate"; or, a talk: "The five components of Muto Ryo Strategy: Marvelous, Exquisite, True, Golden-Winged Garuda King, and Solitary Splendor Swords"), a koan of Takuan. They all share, to me, the characteristic of a fiery anvil, to throw oneself on fully to resolve. Now, are they obscurata? Not from what experience I have had with the effort, however humble. So much in this art can be felt and acknowledged with a knowing nod, one to each other; so much makes simply makes sense. Maybe it is precisely because these sayings or notions cannot be put into words that the danger of falling into obscurata is also so real. But the danger does not negate the reality of their direct experience, does it?

Personally, I draw from the notion of Aikido as 99% atemi, many things. Most immediately, if my aikido is not the entirety of my being, brought to a single point, I am dancing.

I appreciated Ledyard Sensei's early comments, and find good value in equating the saying to an Aikido koan, if you will.

Last edited by Paul D. Smith : 10-04-2005 at 11:53 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 11:50 AM   #42
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Paul Smith wrote:
Now, are they obscurata? Not from what experience I have had with the effort.
Good, then you can explain these things to us in common terms, if they are not obscurata, right?

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 11:52 AM   #43
Darren
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 14
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I'd leave it for your lawyers to sort out
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 12:06 PM   #44
Paul D. Smith
 
Paul D. Smith's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 26
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I do not see a definition of obscurata in the dictionary.

The meaning is clear.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 12:41 PM   #45
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Paul Smith wrote:
I do not see a definition of obscurata in the dictionary.
Hmmmmmm.... it's in my Latin dictionary.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 01:33 PM   #46
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Hey Ron,
No I don't, I came up with the idea, and like most of my ideas they came from training, and thinking, and not as much historical reading. I find it's really hard to read O-sensei, because I don't read Japanese, I believe most of the translations of his writings are filled with others opinion, so it's hard to from my own opinions of what he truly said.

Like anything else, this translation (Aikido is 90% atemi) could be way off base from what he said. However it is commonly repeated, and slightly enigmatic, so I have spent some time pondering it.

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 01:39 PM   #47
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Cool, thanks!

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 03:10 PM   #48
Darren
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 14
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I think that this whole topic comes back to the question , does Aikido work on the street, I beleive and know without any atemi or distraction that the moves we learn within Aikido would not work! I know that as restraining moves they're good but when you are being confronted by somebody I beleive to use Aikido you require good atemi to give yourself time, if nothing else .
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 04:08 PM   #49
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Please oh please lets not turn this into anouther "dose aikido work" discussion.

You're welcome Ron.

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2005, 04:44 PM   #50
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
As for koans:
Quote:
A puzzling, often paradoxical statement or story, used in Zen Buddhism as an aid to meditation and a means of gaining spiritual awakening.
I'm not sure I buy into the whole spiritual awakening thingy, but I have found many things in aikido (even within the same style) that are paradoxical. I suppose literary license could be used to 'borrow' the term, couldn't it?
I'd suggest we'd not.
The point of a koan is the gaining of spiritual awakening, not being paradoxical. (And I'm not even going to talk about how broad or narrow one should define 'paradoxical'.) For further reference: Zen and the Brain: Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness, by James H. Austin, The MIT Press, 1998, 1999 (paperback). No aiki, no aikido; no awakening, no zen.

Secondly, borrowing a term like 'koan' is a dangerous thing. There are at least four Zen-Buddhisms: Chinese, traditional Japanese, modern Japanese and modern Western. So when you use the word 'koan' from which tradition are you speaking? Probably a mix of modern Western Zen and popular Western culture. That's not too impressive, I fear. It's a valid and honest expression, but still...
(Paradoxically, not all of the mentioned zen traditions, emphasise getting enlightened ...)

And this leads to the whole cross-cultural translation problem thingy. I'll solve than one some other time.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Steven Seagal Interview ad_adrian General 45 01-15-2010 03:34 PM
Aikido: Its Spirit and Technique TAnderson General 0 02-27-2007 07:50 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM
Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido? Tubig Techniques 63 07-19-2005 04:37 PM
Train in Aikido for Martial Arts chadsieger General 62 06-06-2002 12:50 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:20 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate