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Old 09-20-2005, 07:18 PM   #26
PeterR
 
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Re: What makes a style?

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote:
I got to thinking - along the lines of Peters thinking, I wonder how many "renegade" teachers or "style founders" would list their "style" alongside the well established ones (on the internet somewhere) , and then claim creditibility at simply being named along with the "big guys". I see what you meant, Peter.

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Is that what Peter really meant that someone had been doing? My guess is the style was put in the list by a student who saw "gee, my style isn't mentioned" and so s/he made sure it was. This person could very well have no idea at all about the size of organisations like Aikikai or Yoshinkan.
I am pretty sure the person who placed the entry wasn't thinking along those lines (I received a nice PM on the matter) but yes one of the things that did bother me was with respect to the relative importance a reader might gleam from the listing. What I was suggesting was some sort of subdivision. Major Styles vs Independent Organizations.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-20-2005, 10:38 PM   #27
xuzen
 
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Re: What makes a style?

To look at things in another angle....

Using Yoshinkan as an example. The name Yoshinkan was actually the dojo belonging to the father of Gozo Shioda and that was even before G Shioda did aikido. To be technically correct, isn't Yoshinkan just a name of dojo.

Following the same line of argument, isn't it that Yoshinkan is not a style but a place/dojo and the style of martial art taught is aikido. Therefore Yoshinkan is not a style, but name of a place. The style taught is still aikido true and true. Any more experience Yoshinkan practitioner would like to provide input?

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:01 AM   #28
Hanna B
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Re: What makes a style?

The same would go for Shotokan, then...
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Old 09-21-2005, 05:33 AM   #29
Mark Uttech
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Re: What makes a style?

Things are generally very wide, and 'style' is just an idea. Thus, Aikido is Aikido, Karate is Karate.
Styles are like 'flavors' added, something extra. I do not think it means so much; Alan Watts once said that: "It is like trying to tie up water with a string."
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Old 09-21-2005, 07:06 AM   #30
Hanna B
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Re: What makes a style?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
What I was suggesting was some sort of subdivision. Major Styles vs Independent Organizations.
Makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 09-21-2005, 08:32 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What makes a style?

Hi Boon,

I'd say you're pretty much correct. Yoshinkan is a dojo, Yoshinkai is an organization, and so on. Steven Miranda often says that the differences are a matter of teaching methodology. That strikes me as correct as well.

But also, I think everyone knows what you mean when you say style...that seems to be the informal catch all term.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 09-21-2005, 10:00 AM   #32
kokyu
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Re: What makes a style?

Homma Sensei has written a great article which has some relevance to this topic.

http://www.nippon-kan.org/senseis_ar...raditions.html
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Old 09-21-2005, 11:45 AM   #33
Darren
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Re: What makes a style?

I'd say that Yoshinkan is a style of Aikido , Takeno shihan teaches Yoshinkan Aikido in Yamanashi not Yamanashi Aikido. Every dojo has it's own name but they would always say which style of Aikido they do or should!
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Old 09-21-2005, 12:07 PM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What makes a style?

Hi Darren,

What is it that you would point to that makes Yoshinkan aikido a 'style'?

Could you name another 'style' of aikido for comparison?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 09-21-2005, 12:46 PM   #35
Darren
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Re: What makes a style?

Hi Ron
I understand the question you are asking and was kind of ready for it . My main point would be the way we are taught to achieve the same goal, so I think that with different styles you have the choice of how to get there. I chose [ obviously Yoshinkan] because I needed a kind of regimented Aikido to grasp some of the finer points that I beleive me personally would have never seen. I've seen many other styles of Aikido and they all point in the same direction but the style itself is how you get there. There are many styles of jeans but which ones suit you , flares, drainpipes or stonewash there all jeans though.My point was that there are styles of Aikido out there which may or maynot suit you sir.
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:32 PM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What makes a style?

I know what you mean...I chose Yoshinkan for the same reason!

I guess what I am getting at is that your description is an awfull lot like the one Steven uses...the difference is one of teaching methodology. Some would feel that 'style' may not represent that fairly.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:47 PM   #37
emma.mason15
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Re: What makes a style?

just too add my own commnt here ...
my sensei is forever telling me I have my own "Style! ....
(but i doubt your looking for "Pretty" aikido in here!)
thats all!
em x

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:51 PM   #38
emma.mason15
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Re: What makes a style?

me again ...
my dojo is not affiliated ... and we are not technically one of the major "styles" ... buyt hey ... i like it ... isnt that what counts?
(just tell me to shut up if im talking rubbish!!!)
em x

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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Old 09-22-2005, 12:06 PM   #39
James Davis
 
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Re: What makes a style?

Quote:
Emma Mason wrote:
me again ...
my dojo is not affiliated ... and we are not technically one of the major "styles" ... buyt hey ... i like it ... isnt that what counts?
(just tell me to shut up if im talking rubbish!!!)
em x
Not rubbish at all.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:06 PM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What makes a style?

{Ron puffing up chest}

If anyone picks on Emma they have to speak to me!

{/Ron puffing up chest}

R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:42 PM   #41
Mark Uttech
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Re: What makes a style?

I used to tell my students not to turn things into a joke. "If you are tempted to turn things into a joke, the joke will be on you." In gassho
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:59 PM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What makes a style?

Actually, I like a little levity from time to time. I sometimes get way too serious on these boards.

Best,
Ron (even if the joke is on me...I can take it)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-22-2005, 04:17 PM   #43
James Davis
 
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Re: What makes a style?

(James puffing up chest)
If anyone picks on Ron, well, he can take it.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 09-22-2005, 04:45 PM   #44
emma.mason15
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Re: What makes a style?

(goes to puff up chest ..... but thinks better of it ....)

hey ... if the worst comes to the worst .... you could all join "dorys Dojo" ... and become a member of the POWER RANGER AIKIDO FORCE!!!! (tm)

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:20 PM   #45
Steven
 
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Re: What makes a style?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I know what you mean...I chose Yoshinkan for the same reason!

I guess what I am getting at is that your description is an awfull lot like the one Steven uses...the difference is one of teaching methodology. Some would feel that 'style' may not represent that fairly.

Best,
Ron
Well, since my name is being thrown around, and taking excellent ukemi I might add, I'll chime in just to clarify an item or two and not to turn this into a What is Yoshinkan thread.

In 1955, Gozo Shioda with the assistance of some business mend, opened an AIKIDO dojo. He chose the name Yoshinkan for his dojo. Much like O'Sensei's dojo was called the Kobukan. Like Boon said, this was a family name used by his father for his Judo and Kendo dojo. At that time, it was just another Aikido dojo with the lineage straight to O'Sensei, as it is today.

In the early 60's, the Yoshinkai Aikido Foundation, Inc was established because of the many dealing Shioda had with the government, police, large organization, etc. Or at least that is how I understand it. However I contend that Yoshinkan/Yoshinkai, which we tend to use interchangeably, is not a STYLE of aikido, but rather an aikido organzation. And what makes it unique as compared to the other organizations is the way in which Aikido is taught.

Now I'm sure there are those who will not agree but who cares. Really, does it matter? I've trained with my share of high ranking instructors who's ability were cra*. And have trained with kyu ranked students who opened up a serious can of whoop-a**.

I think Hanna had the right idea about what the definition of "style" is and how it is used. Gozo Shioda said, "There is only one Aikido". Therefore I say, there are no STYLES of Aikido. Only Aikido organizations and dojos. Your mileage may vary

So there you have it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I'll go back to sleep now .... ZZZZzzzzzz

Last edited by Steven : 09-22-2005 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 09-22-2005, 10:05 PM   #46
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: What makes a style?

For those of us seeking what Aikido is, 'style' only gets in the way. Whatever 'it' is, if we are all seeking the same thing we should all be heading in a similar direction (meandering perhaps, but headed the same general way) and doing the same 'style'. The idea of different a 'style' most likely diverts our attention from the path we should be seeking (unless of course, you believe your 'style' to be the one and only true source - lucky if true, but probably false).

In my opinion, once you get past the basics of any particular 'style', you should start seeking ... if you don't, you'll never see any further than the restricted boundaries of your chosen 'style', further limited by the lack of vision of those within.

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Old 09-22-2005, 11:07 PM   #47
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What makes a style?

The latest posts of Steven Miranda and Rupert Atkinson sum up my own thinking exactly.

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Old 09-22-2005, 11:47 PM   #48
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: What makes a style?

Everyone in the martial arts has always been able to start his own style. The system in the old days was self policing because if you had the hutzpah to set yourself up as doing a new "style" people would come along and test you out. if you couldn't handle yourself, your students would leave. no one wanted to train with someone who couldn't walk his talk. So the so-called style would go the way of the dodo bird...

On the other hand, if the Founder of said new style could indeed deliver the goods, his reputation would grow, he would get more students, experienced martial artists would come to train with him... at a certain point there would be enough folks training in this system that they had turned out a few students who received teaching licenses and people within the martial arts community would generally acknowledge that a new "style" had been created.

A single dojo, with a single teacher generally isn't a "style" , it's an "approach". Not until the "style" has withstood the test of time like Katori Shinto Ryu or some such. However these days there are no challenges to teachers who do not know what they are doing, there is no selection method which removes them from the community if they are incompetent. The students today, unlike the students of old who may have had at least judo or kendo backgrounds and would have some way of evaluating what they were looking at, do not generally have a background which allows them to see the difference between a real teacher and a poseur. So you have a proliferation of so-called "styles" with Sokes, Founders, Grand Masters, Kanchos, Poohbas etc.

Dan rank doesn't count for much these days and titles mean even less. In Japan when i was there, no one asked what your rank was. They asked who your teacher was and how long you'd trained. Probably not a bad way to start getting a picture of where someone is coming from and what their qualifications are to set up shop.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-23-2005, 12:49 PM   #49
SeiserL
 
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Re: What makes a style?

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote:
Gozo Shioda said, "There is only one Aikido". Therefore I say, there are no STYLES of Aikido. Only Aikido organizations and dojos.
Ah-ha. Light bulb moment. Now this is a conceptual distinction that I can surely get my head around. Thank you for that.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:11 PM   #50
charron
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Re: What makes a style?

As each person develops their skill in an art, they develop their own style. Remember Osensei was quoted as saying "You cannot do my Aikido, you must develop your own." or something like that. When referring to organizations - styles - are actually just trying to identify to some degree where their lineage follows after the founder. However, you will find that even within any specific dojo, that the seniors if they have developed to the point where they no longer need to mimic someone else, have their own style, and each is different than the other seniors in that group. So don't worry too much about styles, because if you stay with it long enough, you will develop your own, and if you decide to open you own dojo, you'll have your own style that reflects what you are doing.
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