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Old 09-01-2005, 12:17 AM   #1
ald1225
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Using Ki as a Defense

Has anyone here heard of Yamaue Ryu Aiki Jutsu?

Quote:
Opposite to Aikido techniques which contains a lot of the centrifugal force principle, Yamaue Aiki Jutsu uses a lot of spiral movement with the centripetal force principle like whirlpool in water or the black hole in universe. One more characteristic thing with Yamaue Aiki Jutsu is a use of strong Kiai. The purpose of Kiai is to let the Ki-force flow from one┤s energy centre - Seika Tanden through one┤s body to wherever one needs to affect the opponent...

Soke Yamaue is very unique martial artist who uses active Ki. Active Ki means Ki force attacks opponents. When Soke sends Ki to his opponents, many strange phenomenon occur, such as opponents are paralysed, loose control of their body, can not open hands, can not breathe, can not move and have a lots of pain, etc..
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/yamaue/bud...rames/aiki.htm


clips below:
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/yamaue/nyt/videoer/soke1.mpg
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/yamaue/nyt/videoer/soke2.mpg
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/yamaue/nyt/videoer/soke3.mpg
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/yamaue/nyt/videoer/soke4.mpg
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/yamaue/nyt/videoer/soke5.mpg
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/yamaue/nyt/videoer/soke6.mpg

Anyone first hand have any experience in this style?

Sounds like a real opposite to Aikido, one is being with the universe while the other is being the black hole
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:21 AM   #2
kocakb
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

interesting...after one hour training you would feel as light as a feather and no need for ukemi anymore...I would like to try or better see it...and to your question, no I have not experienced that
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Old 09-01-2005, 03:15 AM   #3
Mats Alritzson
Dojo: Malm÷ Aikidoklubb
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

I thought that only existed in kung fu movies.
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Old 09-01-2005, 03:21 AM   #4
DaveO
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Ummm - yeah. I'll believe it when I experience it firsthand. Until then....

(Sigh) Another 'Soke'?


Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:00 AM   #5
happysod
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Tired of using plain old body mechanics, training and trad-ki? Then look no further, try new "active Ki" for a life enhancing experience. Watch with awe as specially trained uke writhe under your powers of suggestion and... oh bollocks and I can't even continue to mock, I'm so sad.

Look, I'm a long-term aiki-fruity, no problem with training methods using ki, happy with meditation, chi-gung etc. but "Ki force attacks opponents"???

Oh yes, did the mpegs work for anyone, I just got a flicker of about 1 frame when trying to view it.
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Old 09-01-2005, 05:08 AM   #6
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

I cannot watch them either.
Or is this art too fast for me?

And either Yamaue does not know very much about Aikido or I messed up in training all the time. I was doing lots of spiral and centripetal techniques in all dojo I trained at.

Maybe I invented Yamaue Ryu some 15 years ago without knowing? I should ask for licence fee

No I guess this guy just reduced Aikido back to a jutsu. If he is good, it is efficient, if not it might be only expensive.

Any way I would miss the do

Have much fun Dirk
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Old 09-01-2005, 07:37 AM   #7
rob_liberti
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Is there a single Soke who has any legitimacy? What the heck is "very unique" anyway?!

Rob
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Old 09-01-2005, 07:53 AM   #8
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Interesting note.
According to the site the soke is a relative to Takuma Hisa, Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu and student of both Ueshiba Morihei and Takeda Sokaku and founder of Takumakai Daito Ryu.

Last edited by grondahl : 09-01-2005 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 09-01-2005, 07:58 AM   #9
Satyre
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

"very unique" is similar to the class of superlative, absolute adjectives such as "the most complete".

Using "save link as.." I saved and watched the movies. The guys from superstars of wrestling are more dramatic. The guy scrabbling around on his back waving his hand in an obvious case of ki-paralysis could definitely use some lessons from the pro-wrestling boys.
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:40 AM   #11
Mark V. Smith
 
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
... oh bollocks and I can't even continue to mock, I'm so sad.
Sadness says it for me. Nevermind soke, what kind of emptyness must one have inside to make you willing to "learn" to take "ukemi" like that? I have certainly experienced being controlled by a seemingly slight touch that off-balances, but nobody had to feel me up to "bring me out" of it.

It does look like a nice room to train in though, doesn;t it? (although a bit loud)

Mark V. Smith
Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento
Chief mat inspector

Aikido Rocks! (Ukemi Rolls)
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:53 PM   #12
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Quote:
Aldrich Senar wrote:
Has anyone here heard of Yamaue Ryu Aiki Jutsu? Anyone first hand have any experience in this style?

Sounds like a real opposite to Aikido, one is being with the universe while the other is being the black hole
Very interesting... I have not practiced with anyone who trains in this style, nor heard of the Ryu. However, being more skeptical than most, and even less tolerant to B.S. I am more amazed by those who dismiss things they don't know about and haven't experienced rather then taking an interest and wondering where to go and get some, than than I am when I see a video taped, or hear anecdotal evidence of strange martial phenomenon. It is said that the Lamas of Tibet, and the Yogis of India can also manifest strange powers, not to speak of the out and out miracles that the Daili Lama is purported to be able to perform.

I have experienced quite a few of these things shown in the video and they are quite real. Before anyone goes off on a tangent, I wasn't brainwashed into believing anything, nor was I a student of the teacher tanking my ukemi to make them look good.

Quote:
Opposite to Aikido techniques which contains a lot of the centrifugal force principle, Yamaue Aiki Jutsu uses a lot of spiral movement with the centripetal force principle like whirlpool in water or the black hole in universe. One more characteristic thing with Yamaue Aiki Jutsu is a use of strong Kiai. The purpose of Kiai is to let the Ki-force flow from one's energy centre - Seika Tanden through one's body to wherever one needs to affect the opponent...
From a philosophical approach, on a physical level, the universe would include black holes, and oddly enough the other way around, too. To me, I see nothing different in either approach (Aikido versus this style) so there is nothing special with regards to this style from what is shown in the videos. That does not mean there are not specific gokui (secrets) that do differentiate the Ryu from Aikido, just that they are not apparent (ha - hidden in plain sight, perhaps).

I would like to address the statement about kiai. Iwama is also known for their persistent kiai, which may or may not have something to do with ki-flow... More importantly, everyone who understands kiai understands that the higher levels of kiai are completely silent. I have written about this before, so I will not elucidate here)

Quote:
Soke Yamaue is very unique martial artist who uses active Ki. Active Ki means Ki force attacks opponents. When Soke sends Ki to his opponents, many strange phenomenon occur, such as opponents are paralyzed, loose control of their body, can not open hands, can not breathe, can not move and have a lots of pain, etc..
Again, I might explain Kokyu in the same way, so perhaps it is a mere contention in verbiage. However, I have had some interesting experiences where with a mere touch, my heart and breathing were completely stopped dead in my chest. The master demonstrating explained that they are gokui, contained within the Aiki-Jujitsu of Daito-Ryu, all with a smile on his face as mine contorted with the thought - is this real/am I about to die?

For those who push this all aside due to their ignorance, I can only say that I pity you should you come across some little old man in an alleyway and demand he move out of your way, or you "the big, bad martial artist" will have to teach him a lesson... because you will get schooled in what martial arts really are about from one of the few people who actually know... because you don't. So sorry.



.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:56 AM   #13
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Quote:
I have experienced quite a few of these things shown in the video and they are quite real.
You see, this is where I have the problem. If such factors are obviously demonstrable on persons unconnected to to the style and are reproducible under controlled conditions, why do we never see them displayed in such a manner. Normally, the answers break down to one of two options
a. the techniques are so deadly they cannot be used on the uninitiated (an extreme example of too deadly to spar)
b. to enter into such a controlled test is demeaning to the practitioner and then flows into caveats, who visits whom, how the test is conducted to maintain the grand poobahs honour etc. etc.

Quote:
For those who push this all aside due to their ignorance, I can only say that I pity you should you come across some little old man in an alleyway and demand he move out of your way, or you "the big, bad martial artist" will have to teach him a lesson...
At what point did anyone actually question the martial abilities of the instructor or even indicate that they would happily fight the man (or any variant on the little ol sage) in a random alley anywhere. The site was mocked for two areas
- 1. the vocabulary used: if you write something for public consumption, it is up to you to ensure the message you wish to portray is accurate. Assuming this website is accurately portraying it's message, they claim Jedi mind tricks of extraordinary power, for this I want proof.
- 2. the god-awful ham acting in the videos (thanks, the mpegs worked, I'm still aching from laughing). After seeing several similar videos from Yellow bamboo, televangelists healing vacuum cleaners and nutty fundamentalist of every stripe, all I can say is they need better choreographers.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:07 AM   #14
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

.......................................sorry man. Wish I could shoot Ki Balls like Naruto with Rasengan but I can't. Would be scary if I could. I mean, isn't it scary ?? To have a blue colored sphere appear within your palm.....
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:30 AM   #15
Paul Kerr
 
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Lordy me, what extreme guff.

Paul Kerr
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:46 PM   #16
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

I just read an interesting article in Shambala Sun this month on medidation and the benefits in developing the brain etc.

They did a very scientific study on the ability of various groups of people to recognize subtle changes in facial features in reaction to pictures or emotional images/sensory input.

In the past, as a group, secret service agents would score on average the highest in being able to recognize changes.

They did it with a bunch of tibetan monks...and they blew things off the chart.

Why do I bring this up?

There is something about all this eastern martial stuff....it is not mystical or metaphysical...but many of the methodologies of practice such as meditation and martial arts can allow us to tap our fullest potential.

I am starting to believe that probably O'Sensei was refined enough to be able to react to things that most of us could not pick up in our day to day dealings with people. I am sure the dali lama is finely tuned as well.

To me this is tapping into "KI". by becoming more in tune with our world and understandng it...we can react (I really hate the word proact!)...to things...if only a split second faster..it makes a big difference!

For us lay people...we don't have the capacity maybe to understand it...so we throw it in the category as IMPOSSIBLE...or EVIL...or MYSTICAL.

I try to remember that at one time.....The earth really was Flat. It is only in the last 600 or 700 years that it became round!

I try not to get too wrapped around the axle about figuring out if something works or doesn't work...it is the journey to unfolding the mysteries that counts...not quickly finding the answers!
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Old 09-02-2005, 06:45 PM   #17
Savlu
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Wise post Kevin. I totally agree with you.
Perhaps its easier for a 2year old child understand a complicated equation, then to us understanding something like that.
What i mean is that we only use 10% of our brain...if we used like 2% we would probably be blind, and imagine someone who uses 10% of his brain in a world where everyone only use 2%...that person would be a god! And we are talking about the diference of 8%.
Now imagine if some of us can actually use something like 70%. If 8% makes so much diference, then 60%....
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Old 09-02-2005, 06:58 PM   #18
Aristeia
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Just to clarify. The "we only use 10% of our brain" thing is an absolute myth.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:20 PM   #19
Jiawei
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Quote:
Paul Kerr wrote:
Lordy me, what extreme guff.
Lordy me ,what extreme guff.
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Old 09-04-2005, 12:42 PM   #20
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Just to clarify. The "we only use 10% of our brain" thing is an absolute myth.
You're right. Most use much less

Dirk
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Old 09-04-2005, 05:51 PM   #21
kironin
 
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Neuroscience for Kids - 10% of the brain myth


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Old 09-04-2005, 06:22 PM   #22
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

For a good visualization, enter "PET scan" and "brain" into google. It's pretty clear from the images that more than 10% is being used at any one time.
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:44 AM   #23
happysod
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Quote:
I try not to get too wrapped around the axle about figuring out if something works or doesn't work...it is the journey to unfolding the mysteries that counts...not quickly finding the answers
Kevin, normally I find your posts good reading, but here I'm going to have to disagree strongly on two points.

1. While I agree that merely being given the "answer" is poor teaching, both in martial arts and, for example, maths, the idea that there is a provable answer is part and parcel of the teaching.

This site was not talking about a hypothetical end-point which can only be tested by learning and which may not exist. If that were the case, it would come under the heading of blue-skies research and thus could be considered valid within this purview. Instead, it was making a claim of actually having the answer. At this point I want referenced, peer reviewed proof, just as I would ask for any other discipline.

2. Your implication of strange things exist so don't dismiss etc... Happy to admit that not all things have (and probably won't) be explained by the cold light of "science" - whatever that is - in its current form. However, I do get annoyed by the implication that because B cannot be proved, this somehow lends credence to C which is currently under discussion .

Unless you can show a decent corollary between the two and say why they intersect and thus can be considered subsets of the same phenomena (other than the "weird" genus) they cannot and should not be used to either support or discredit each other.

My example for this would homeopathy and aromatherapy, both of which I have dismissed as quackery for a long time. However, New Scientist (OK, on the borders of pop science, but at least some decent methodology is used) did do a study on homeopathic remedies, run by a complete skeptic whose remit was to debunk it - they failed. This has led me to revise my skepticism of homeopathy, but has not led me to believe some the grander claims of aromatherapy (nice as it is)

Why the long rant? Mainly because I do think there are areas of study that could be fruitful, but too often an "open mind" is used as a shield for dodgy claims and poor research, drenching truth in a miasma of complete rubbish.

Sorry, rant over, I'll go back to baiting shodothugs and orcs in my usual meaningless manner.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:52 PM   #24
ald1225
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
I have experienced quite a few of these things shown in the video and they are quite real. Before anyone goes off on a tangent, I wasn't brainwashed into believing anything, nor was I a student of the teacher tanking my ukemi to make them look good.


From a philosophical approach, on a physical level, the universe would include black holes, and oddly enough the other way around, too. To me, I see nothing different in either approach (Aikido versus this style) so there is nothing special with regards to this style from what is shown in the videos.

...

More importantly, everyone who understands kiai understands that the higher levels of kiai are completely silent. I have written about this before, so I will not elucidate here)
Sorry for the late reply...
Could you tell me where/what style you have experience such thing, I would like to experience it too!

On the note of black holes, of course black holes are part of the universe, I don't mean to be literal but what I meant was that other seems to sucking on the energy instead of being at one with the energy.

Could you point me to the thread where you have written or discussed sile kiai?

Thank you
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:07 PM   #25
DustinAcuff
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Re: Using Ki as a Defense

Hey everyone, I'm back!

Anyway, I have to say that the responses on both sides are pretty justified.

On the one side, yeah, I want to see and experience this before I give it full credit.

But on the otherside I have seen or felt some stuff that is pretty similar in aikido and would feel it was irresponsible and rash to disreguard it completely.

I think the wisest course for everyone is to keep an open mind and take advantage of any opportunities to investigate first hand what happens.

But as mentioned above I won't fully believe it until I see or experience it but I would definately not give this guy any guff, his possible Daito credentials and obvious influences give me more than enough reason to run the other direction than cross him.
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