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Old 09-22-2005, 02:28 AM   #76
creinig
Dojo: Yoshinkan Würzburg
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote:
In further reading the threads, it strikes me how people tend to view fighting as a totally avoidable thing, and that Aikido will teach you how to avoid it. I can understand that de-escalation is important in avoiding conflict, but you can't simple label a fight as "sport" or "bar room brawl". Not everyone who in intending to "fight with you" is a drunken boozer who can't stand on his own too feet. It's almost as if people have a dicotamy of what a fight is.
I've got a college degree in counseling that can help me deescalate a situation if possible, but I want to knwo that my martial art will cover my butt if I need it.
Charles already gave a very good comment on this, but there's IMHO another very important point in your post that I'd like to address: Not only is being able to physically defend oneself another part the "personal safety net", but also look at these two possibilities:

a) You know: If your deescalation fails, you'll have a serious problem.
b) You know: If your deescalation fails, the attacker will have a serious problem.

Any deescalation attempt will have a much higher chance to work in case (b).
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Old 09-22-2005, 07:18 AM   #77
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
what does the aikido guy think? It aint gonna happen to me?
What *this* aikidoka thinks:

A) True victory is self victory, victory at the speed of light

B) Enter and cut

C) Connect

The order above is not meaningfull. They should pretty much all happen at the same time.

What I don't understand is why people make so many assumptions about aikido. Get on the mat. Try it out.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-22-2005, 11:27 AM   #78
Shannon Frye
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

First off, my thanks to Charles for your thoughtful response. It is true, that we must first agree on what "cross training" means, as well as what "martial arts" means. I had thought that these were no-brainers, but I guess they do indeed require a closer look.
To me, cross training is several things. One is that it, as you stated, covers the gaps in any one art. When I started in karate, I felt comfortable when the opponent was far away. When I learned jujitsu, I felt comfortable close up. Judo made me feel comfortable with a "grabby" opponent while standing, BJJ made me functional while on the ground. Shaolin Kung Fu taught me that there are endless "right" ways of doing something, and Muay thai added the boxing skills that all the others were lacking (as well as some killer elbow/knee strikes). Each art had something that the others didn't. If I had only taken karate, and ended up on the ground, I'd be like a defensless turtle.

Now, to address "martial arts". Again, I thought this was self explanitory. "how to defend/fight/combat" You can add your own definition, but without the physical "fight" aspect of it, it is simply gymnastics, or dance, or inner reflection. There are many other aspects to martial arts oter than fighting, but I think this is a neccesary component. Remove it, and you have a "feel good" get in shape art, like aerobics.

As for the comment of "being attacked by a stranger in N.A. being very remote", ..man, what small town do you live in?? I worked as a cop, and with the courts for a while, and I saw first hand all the "remote" attacks that happen. PErhaps you are fortunate to live in Japan, where you said the events are few, but here (U.S.), you can expect anything at anytime, from anyone.

I've read and reread Christains post, and Im afraid I cant figure out if you were trying to state a different point. You say that option b is prefered, andthis seems to be in line with when I said "my martial arts needs to be physically effective to cover my butt". If you meant something else, can you please elaborate...Im sorry, but I missed it.

And Ron....oh Ron ron ron - I mean no disrespect..I really don't, but your last post is EXACTLY the kind of response that turns people off from aikido. It sounds like a minister spouting scripture.. "Victory at the speed of light"? "True victory is self victory"? Are you serious? I agree with these statments, just like I agree with the statement "Red jello is much redder than green jello is". It is a factual statement, but has no relevance in a fistfight. Im not intending to lessen what you believe in. Enter and cut sounds much more reasonable, but good intentions will not "git er done". A happy go lucky person with good intentions will not find themselves the victor in a fight with a person intent on hurting them. You may find your internal victory, but your external is having a face-to-face with reality.

As a new student to Aikido, I'd like to offer this observation. Ive met people in any one martial art that thought their art was the best for self defense. Aikido is the only art that has such an intense component , that I can only classify as religious. And maybe thats the way Osensei intended it to be. But keep this in mind...when someone says "I cant change that flat tire on my car", and the response is "The wind must first blow the tree, then the leaf".....you end up with a frustrated listener who still has a flat tire.

Again, thanks to all for your responses. I hope to bring an "outsiders" view to some of these topics. I don't mean to come across brash. I sometimes feel like a visitor at a new church..looking on, accepting, learning, but always questioning based on my own experiences. As was said on South Park."There are no stupid questions...only stupid people" (hehe)

Shannon
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Old 09-22-2005, 12:48 PM   #79
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
And Ron....oh Ron ron ron - I mean no disrespect..I really don't, but your last post is EXACTLY the kind of response that turns people off from aikido.
You obviously don't know my writing here and on other boards. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I speak about ASSUMPTIONS. I used to wrestle, kickbox, did shotokan, still practice Daito ryu when I get the opportunity, and my main art is Yoshinkan aikido. And there's a few other odds and ends I won't get into.

Quote:
Victory at the speed of light"? "True victory is self victory"? Are you serious?
Very. No fight, right at the moment of contact. If you must think in terms of defeat, defeat the opponant the moment they have the idea to attack you. If that doesn't work, enter and cut. The connection is how you start right from the beginning. I'll post a link to an experience of mine:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...tsu#post201800

Please note that the opponant was already reconsidering his choice the moment he realized I was already aware of him. Also note....Charles is quite correct. No unarmed martial art would have guaranteed my safety if those thugs were armed. Nothing. Even the knife I occationally carry in that area wouldn't have helped against a gun (if they knew how to use it).

So basically, you can scoff, others can scoff, it doesn't really bother me that much. If you choose to laugh at what you don't understand, you fall into the category of all the other idiots out there. No big thang to me. Your loss.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:48 PM   #80
creinig
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote:
I've read and reread Christains post, and Im afraid I cant figure out if you were trying to state a different point. You say that option b is prefered, andthis seems to be in line with when I said "my martial arts needs to be physically effective to cover my butt". If you meant something else, can you please elaborate...Im sorry, but I missed it.
I was only trying to underline an important point you made only -- IMHO -- implicitly in your post. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:39 PM   #81
Shannon Frye
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

As per his suggestion to post it in the open forum, the following was a private message I mailed to Ron:

Hi - hope you don't mind my emailing you
I read your recent post about people making assumptions about Aikido and that they should just get on the mat and try it. I fully agree. Without trying it, you really have only second hand interpretations.

I am very new to aikido, but the reason I chose the dojo I did was that they have a "liberal" attitude towards the art. By this, I mean that they'd throw in an atemi, or show a "non-aikido" addition/version of a technique that may better suit the nage (or the situation). This fits well in what I want out of my training. I want to learn new things, and blend them with what I already know.

Just wanted to explain a bit of where Im coming from. I didn't want you to think I was making fun of you for your comments about "Victory". I agree..Im just trying to find where they "fit" in my own training.

Shannon
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:51 PM   #82
Aristeia
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Hi Charles
Your two points of definition are obviously related, and rely in the end on the "what is a martial art for" question. I note that you've told us you think a martial art is useless for self protection but don't say what it is useful for.
I, like I suspect many would disagree with your claim. In fact it seems to me you're just re iterating the issue pointed out by Shannon. You haven't said martial arts are useless because the techniques don't work, or assaults are too unexpected, or likely to involve firearms etc. You've said they are useless (for self protection) because you will never need them. Surely this misses the point? Whether or not a skill is ever employed doesn't speak to whether I am competant in it.

I continue to maintain that although most people who have been in the martial arts for any time will agree that self defence is not their primary objective, all other benefits derive from or a greatly enhanced when what you do is effective. In other words if you're doing aikido to become a better person etc etc, that goal can be compromised if there's a niggle in the back on ones mind saying "i'm not sure this would actually work". I think this is a pretty primal thing. I think one of the reason martial arts benefits us is that when you have the beleif that you can take care of yourself in primative combat, your psyche gets a boost that allows you to attack other areas of your life with vigor. Because you beleive one of those basic drives/fears has been taken care of. Now all that matters here is beleif and it doesn't matter if it's ever put to the test. But I think alot of people training in various arts are actually missing out on benefits becuase deep down in a corner of their mind they try not to look into they harbour doubts. Which is why I think it's important to confront those doutbts and either really satisfy yourself that they are unwarranted or add something to your repetoire that will give you back your primal peace of mind as it were.

Am I out on a limb by myself here?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:54 PM   #83
Shannon Frye
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
You obviously don't know my writing here and on other boards. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I speak about ASSUMPTIONS.



No unarmed martial art would have guaranteed my safety if those thugs were armed. Nothing.

So basically, you can scoff, others can scoff,
Best,
Ron

You are very correct that I am unfamiliar with your writing. I've already stated that I am new to this forum and to the art.

And I have no idea what "assumptions" you are talking about - Im talking from experience.

I agree fully that when dealing with armed opponents, no art would guarentee your safety. This was never argued. Why did you bring this up?

Why is it that asking questions, speaking from experience, and even theorizing siituations has to be "scoffing"? Just cause I dont think the same as you doesn't mean I am scoffing. If so, are you scoffing because you disagree with me?

I gotta tell you, the more I read/encounter aikidoka that answer questions with riddles, or little sayings, or evasive quotes that don't address the question, I really start to wonder if I'm wasting time even trying to learn this art. There's a physical component that this art is centered around, that a lot of aikidoka want to pretend isnt there. You don't run into the problem with jujitsu or judo.

Shannon
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Old 09-24-2005, 03:24 AM   #84
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

There are some interesting things here I`d like to address. One problem I have when I write my posts is finding a balance in making my opinions clear while not wasting time (mine and yours) by stating what is obvious. I myself tend to skip long posts so I probably error by not making myself clear. This is probably what happened with the post Micheal read. I see that I didn`t explain myself clearly, sorry.

I feel that personal definitions of words are in some ways more important than dictionary ones. For me, the word "martial arts" is made of two words that have equal balance. To me, "martial" means war, combat, how to kill another human being. The word "art" to me means something that doesn`t have a functional use, but is something that exists to better the quality of life. Thus, martial art is studying martial skills, principles, and philosophy for the aim of improving the quality of my life. In my definition, only those who are financially stable and are not in danger of violence can study "martial arts." I don`t think studying martial arts for self protection is a waste of time because I will never need them. I think it is a waste of time because that is not what they are made for.

I also believe that equal emphasis should be put on the word "martial." Martial artists should be constantly improving their strength and flexibility, physically, mentally, and spiritually (oohh, ain`t that a loaded word) This will undeniably be extremely useful should a physical altercation should arise. But I also believe that if one truly develops in the martial arts, physical altercations are much less likely to happen. So I do believe that martial arts are useful for self defense, however in a non direct way.

Shannon,

I was born and raised in Chicago until I graduated my university which was right downtown on the lake. The statistics I have read from various sources state that about one person in about 200 becomes a victim of a violent crime. This also includes victims who were attacked by people known to them, mostly women who are attacked by boyfriends/husbands etc. They make up something like 70% of victims of violent crime. My math skills are horrible, but I can see that makes the odds of being attacked by an unknown person rather rare. If you have a better source of statistics I would really appreciate hearing about it.

I would certainly like to hear any response to what I wrote, but please remember that the above is only my opinion, something that works for me.

Charles
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:22 AM   #85
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote:
You are very correct that I am unfamiliar with your writing. I've already stated that I am new to this forum and to the art.

And I have no idea what "assumptions" you are talking about - Im talking from experience.
You are talking about experience in other arts, no? You said yourself that you are a beginner in aikido. I'm talking about experience in aikido. And when I refer to assumptions, I am referring particularly to the assumption that the things I've mentioned in the post above AREN'T PHYSICAL. There are direct physical aspects to every thing I've mentioned. Some of which are referred to in arts other than aikido. Are you asking for specific techniques that an aikidoka might use against a specific attack? I didn't get that from your post, so maybe that's my bad.

Quote:
I agree fully that when dealing with armed opponents, no art would guarentee your safety. This was never argued. Why did you bring this up?
Because it is mentioned in other posts in this thread, and it is an important part of self defense. In other words, unless your experience in other arts includes fire arm training, and you have a permit to carry, aikido is no weaker in that area than other arts.

Quote:
Why is it that asking questions, speaking from experience, and even theorizing siituations has to be "scoffing"? Just cause I dont think the same as you doesn't mean I am scoffing. If so, are you scoffing because you disagree with me?
You said
Quote:
And Ron....oh Ron ron ron
That sounded like 'scoffing' to me. But maybe I misinterpreted it. I know that I have heard that same attitude in the past from other arts. If you have questions, just ask them. Without animus, or insinuations. One thing I've learned posting on these boards...if I have to appologize for what I'm about to say, then I probably am offending someone. If I asked my teacher questions with some of the attitudes I see here...well, let's just say I might stop asking This is not specifically aimed at you...more of a general statement.

Quote:
I gotta tell you, the more I read/encounter aikidoka that answer questions with riddles, or little sayings, or evasive quotes that don't address the question, I really start to wonder if I'm wasting time even trying to learn this art. There's a physical component that this art is centered around, that a lot of aikidoka want to pretend isnt there. You don't run into the problem with jujitsu or judo.
As I said above, everything I mentioned has physical components. That's why I posted the quote from an actual physical real world encounter that I had, that seemed to me to address some of the what if's often asked about. Let's try again...You ask specific questions and I'll try to answer them. Feel free to use my initial post as cannon fodder. Sorry for the delay in getting back to the thread, I've actually been *training physically* the last 3 days.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 09-27-2005 at 10:24 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-28-2005, 04:04 PM   #86
aikigirl10
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Hi Shannon,
Second, we have to agree on the purpose of doing martial arts, right? I personally think that any so called martial art is close to useless to practice as a means of self-protection, meaning physical safety. I fully realize that many disagree with me, and that`s totally cool. To reply to your second post, I would like to point out that statisically the odds of an individual being attacked by a stranger are incredibly remote in North America and even remoter (is that a word?) in Japan, where I live. These remote odds can be reduced much more easily by checking out websites such as nononsenseselfdefense.com and reading books like "the Gift of Fear" then by wasting time in martial arts practice.

Charles
First off, i REALLY dont mean to keep picking on you.

With that said... no matter how remote something it is still entirely possible. What are the odds of winning the lottery? slim to none. But yet people still play the lottery. This is the exact same thing. Even if people dont get attacked very often, that risk is still there. And i think it occurs more than you realize. Like they always say... better safe than sorry.

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
I think that crosstraining is generally a bad idea. Also, I practice Iaido and Systema in addition to Aikido. I also "play BJJ" with friends. I consider all of them complete and I enjoy doing all of them. I don`t think any of them is in need of "crosstraining."
Ok... you just contradicted yourself...

You dont like crosstraing but yet you take 3 different martial arts....... hmm... to me that sounds like crosstraining.

Sure , all of them might be complete "budo" wise but if you have absolutely no interest in learning self defense then why dont you just practice budo?

To me it just doesnt make any sense.
Oh well this is probably just a useless post anyway since you find it so hard to respond...

-Paige (very confused)
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Old 09-28-2005, 07:28 PM   #87
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
First off, i REALLY dont mean to keep picking on you. )

Hi Paige,

Don`t worry, I`m married, so I`m used to it

I agree, the possibility is there, so one should do something. However, I feel that there are many things that are more helpful than practicing a martial art to protect myself. Please realize that I don`t mean that I don`t practice hard or that I don`t insist on serious attacks both from myself and from others.

I wrote that last bit on purpose to help make my point. I do a variety of martial arts, not to crosstrain, but to enjoy each one. i also climb mountains, travel, and I am starting a new hobby - making beer. I think I made my personal definition of crosstraining pretty clear. I am not crosstraining, just trying to develop myself while having fun.

Charles
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Old 09-29-2005, 10:44 AM   #88
MattRice
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

...mmmm....beer....
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:34 PM   #89
CNYMike
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
.... I do a variety of martial arts, not to crosstrain, but to enjoy each one .....
Well, I'm also doing a variety of martial arts -- five, including Aikido -- and I'm doing them because I like them, they're interesting, and I'm a creature of habit. I did not set out "to crosstrain," and if anything, I'm making it a project to compartmentalize them in my head, not combine them. Yet I consider it "crosstraining" because I am doing them concurrently. If you want to split hairs and argue it's only crosstraining if you INTEND to crosstrain (whatever that means) and that you're not really crosstraining if you're doing things for fun, fine, be that way. But it sounds a bit like Bill Clinton giving a speech against adultery.
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Old 09-30-2005, 06:13 PM   #90
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Well, again we are having a problem with the definition of crosstraining. Cross doesn`t mean concurrently, it means something like against or a bridge btwn two differing things. The term came into vogue in the fitness world, to do different types of exercise to be more well rounded, to do something different because what one is doing now is not sufficient. There is nothing about intending anything in the term or my usage. If you are compartmentalizing what you are doing, you are not crosstraining, you are training concurrently.

This all may seem trivial but I think the overall topic is quite important. On this forum, many diagreements seem to come from the problem that different people define terms differently. I think that if we really made an effort to understand what another is saying, we would have much more productive discussions.

Charles
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Old 10-01-2005, 09:07 AM   #91
CNYMike
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Well, again we are having a problem with the definition of crosstraining. Cross doesn`t mean concurrently, it means something like against or a bridge btwn two differing things. The term came into vogue in the fitness world, to do different types of exercise to be more well rounded, to do something different because what one is doing now is not sufficient. There is nothing about intending anything in the term or my usage. If you are compartmentalizing what you are doing, you are not crosstraining, you are training concurrently.

This all may seem trivial but I think the overall topic is quite important. On this forum, many diagreements seem to come from the problem that different people define terms differently. I think that if we really made an effort to understand what another is saying, we would have much more productive discussions.

Charles
Well, then, let me try and clear things up for you:

By "cross training," most people refer to doing at least one martial art in addtion to Aikido -- period. While they may mean "concurrent training," they, perhaps eroneously, use "cross training." But the question is whether or not to do at least one martial art in addition to Aikido; there is an opposing view (that I disagree with) that you should do just Aikido and nothing else, concurrently or otherwise.

That is what it is about, whether to do other art(s) in while doing Aikido, not what to call it.

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-01-2005, 10:13 AM   #92
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I don't really see how you could split hairs and call something concurrent. You are one being and while you may try and compartmentalize your life, all your experiences will add to you being you. So while you may have the best intentions in the world of isolating your training, your experiences will spill over into the other aspects of your life.

Certainly when you are in an aikido dojo you play by the rules and ettiquette of that environment, as well as say, a BJJ dojo. I think that is only appropriate.

However why on earth would you train concurrently and limit yourself to exploring those things that can be synthesized.

In prinicple, I'd say, anything you would learn in any good art would be relevant in the other, as long as you stayed within the parameters of ettiquette and training. Infact, no one would know but you!
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Old 10-01-2005, 02:23 PM   #93
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Sorry, I couldn't help it...

from www.dictionary.com:

cross-train (krôstrn, krs-)
v. cross-·trained, cross-·train·ing, cross-·trains
v. intr.
To undergo or provide training in different tasks or skills: The department has cross-trained in firefighting and emergency medical services.
To train in different sports, mainly by alternating regimens, as in running, bicycling, and swimming.

v. tr.
To train (another) in different tasks or skills.

So to me, when I train in yoga (whew! those ashtunga yogi give you a work out!) I am cross-training. When I train in Daito ryu, I am cross-training. When I train in an AKI aikikai dojo, I am not sure...the skills are similar, the methodology very different. But some of the skills are different too.

My motivation, however, is the important thing to me. What is it that I want to get out of the training? In the case of yoga, a good physical workout that stresses breathing, suppleness and active relaxation. In the case of Daito ryu, to look deeper into what aikido came from, and to foster relationships in that art. In the case of the AKI dojo, to leave the form of Yoshinkan aikido, and explore deeper relaxation and less attachment. I also really like the AKI instructor and senior student, so I would probably get together with them just for the heck of it.

Anyway, to each his own. If someone wants to cross-train in BJJ to build ground fighting skills, more power to 'em. I believe that in time, their aikido will benefit from that training if they stick with the aikido. And if they find BJJ is more to their liking, at least they have experienced something else.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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