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Old 09-14-2005, 12:50 PM   #51
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
1) Still grappling *grin*?
Not so much. I get to train in Daito ryu about once or twice a year (when Kondo Sensei comes to the states and I can afford the time and money. Still kata, but a lot closer than most aikido. I try to keep up on things, have some familiarity with bjj/judo stuff informally, but can't\don't want to train very much at that level. My knees have become precious at 44 years of age. But if we get together sometime, body permitting, we can have a go

Quote:
2) We gonna see you at Itten anytime soon *another grin*?
Hope so...maybe the next time Ellis does something public there. I've over booked for this fall considering how my knee is doing, but hey, ya gotta live, right?
Quote:
3) Is the "Hidden in Plain Sight" thread over at AJ making your head spin, too?
Nah, I've spoken over the years to most of the people in the thread at one point or another. But actually being able to do what is being discussed under pressure is a whole 'nother nut. One I hope to crack eventually...

Good keiko to you...
Ron

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Old 09-14-2005, 01:47 PM   #52
Aristeia
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

In terms of "adding" stuff to Aikido, I'm not such a fan. I much prefer to train in seperate systems in total rather than cobbling together bits and pieces. Which isn't to say I won't throw a BJJ sub on top of an Aikido throw from time to time when I'm in "play" mode, but that is the exception rather than the rule and only when it is appropriate to the context and training partner.
I really haven't seen techniques bleeding from one art into the practice of the other much amongst the cross trainers I've seen. I know people who do BJJ, Judo, various weapons styles, hard striking styles, and JJJ alongside Aikido and no one seems to have much trouble knowing which class they're in. Certainly their Aikido will at time show the influence in their style of movement, atemi, attitude etc but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
MTCW

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Old 09-14-2005, 02:03 PM   #53
Budd
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Ron,

Thanks for the response -- in re-reading, I hope my questions didn't come across as a grappling challenge (though it will be fun to roll!) as much as, I look forward to meeting you sooner rather than later! I hear you on the knees and training expenses.

Aristeia and Jonreading,

I like what was written in terms of training aikido when doing aikido (as instructed by the teacher leading the class/seminar). I think it's true (not to mention polite, good ettiquette and a better reflection on you and your teachers than trying to show off) whether you're training in something else and trying aikido or if you're an aikido person training in a different dojo.

I also agree about segmenting, especially with regard to what's "appropriate to the context and training partner". I will say this, though, as far as techniques bleeding over into one another. I've noticed that my sprawl to a leg-shoot has started to greatly resemble the mae ukemi we perform in aikido class. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm messing up my sprawl (though the way we drilled/conditioned it in wrestling was as grass drills and squat thrusts -- which I don't think is THAT different from mae ukemi) somehow or if my aikido (which I train in a focused manner as a system, as opposed to playing at grappling) is bleeding over too much.
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Old 09-14-2005, 02:38 PM   #54
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Challenge? nah. I get smoked regularly enough to be used to it!

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-14-2005, 03:00 PM   #55
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I think that there are some fundmental paradigm differences between Aikido and BJJ that make it better to keep them separate as two distinct arts. They are two different methodolgies!

However, as a martial artist it has proven very useful to me to help me sort through both arts to find what really works for me. It has also broadened my understanding of the human mind and how we can form paradigms and assumptions about situations, and reality. Both arts are very good at demonstrating this.

I think this is why many beginners are critical of each others art, they have only experienced the OTHER art through the filter of their limited experience...in not so polite terms it is called ignorance.

Anyway, it has been interesting to see how aikido asumes a certain assumptive dynamic dealing with the "rules" or etiiquette within it's methodology and how BJJ assumes a certain assumptive dynamic as well. It really affects what you validate as being effective.
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:32 PM   #56
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I apologize if I did. I just meant that if someone wants to get better at fighting, then I wouldn't recommend starting with something like aikido.

For example, someone could go to one wrestling practice and pick up something that they could apply pretty quickly to the average person. They wouldn't be great at it but after a short period of time they would probably have a good chance of being able to use it in a fight.

Like I said I haven't trained in aikido so I could be wrong. That's just the impression I get from reading posts on this website and from the books I've read (Total Aikido and a book about Tomiki/Shodokan that I can't remember the name of).

Note: I was just using wrestling as an example, but the same could have been said for a lot of styles.
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:55 PM   #57
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion Phillip. I am more curious about what your definition or assumptions are about what fighting is. We must first establish that premise before we can really have a serious discussion about what martial techniques are most effective and which arts are most effective at developing those techniques through the training methodology.

No one has ever been able to answer this question for me...or has at least refused to answer it for some reason.

I submit that no one art has the answers, as fighting is situationally dependent on the established rules between the combatants. Sometimes guns work best, other times other things...it all depends on the rules.

Personally I think all martial arts are a waste of time for fighting skills as we can never adequately define the parameters and conditions of a particular fight in which a civilian...but again, that depends on your definition of what fighting is and what the objectives of the endstate are, and the rules.
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Old 09-14-2005, 04:17 PM   #58
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Do you think someone could walk into an aikido dojo and in one or two lessons walk away with something they could apply against the average person? I think you could teach someone how to do an arm drag, elbow strikes, or something and they would be able to apply that against an average person after only a little practice, but I don't think the same could be said of irimi-nage or shihonage.

The reason I think it's a good idea to form a solid base of striking, clinching, and groundfighting before moving on to something like aikido is that in a fight you're most likely going to be confronted by strikes, clinching, tackles, and in some cases fighting on the ground. In my experience not many fights are initiated by someone grabbing the other's wrist or charging at them so off-balance that irimi-nage would be easy to pull off.

I think punching and how to defend against punches are the first set of skills people should learn, and from what I've seen I don't think an aikido dojo is the best place to go for that type of training.

When I talk about using martial arts for self defense, I don't usually think of being attacked by four armed men because in that situation there isn't much you can do. I think wrestling practices are great for that kind of thing- we typically spent about an half an hour doing sprints and jogging.

Last edited by Pankration90 : 09-14-2005 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 09-14-2005, 04:59 PM   #59
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Fair enough, I understand the assumptions you are making about how fight go from your perspective and your experiences.

From mine, I would say yes, there is much that someone can learn in a short time from aikido. General situational awareness comes to mind, keeping your distance, judging your distance from an potential assailant, minimizing exposure, allowing yourself and exit, and simply holding yourself with good posture and walking with confidence.

I submit, that you can learn these things and they are much more relevant to a real fight, that of which the first step is avoidance, or minimizing exposure to the risk.

Your assumption is that most fighitng involves punches. Maybe in some fights, but what got you to that point that you need to either trade blows or defend against blows? Lets explore that first.

I tend to agree with your last paragraph about self defense in both single attacker and multiple attacker senarios. So I submit that empty heand martial arts are a poor method of self defense.

So, what is fighting??? Not self defense...then for sport? If so, then YES I'd say aikido is not such a good art for sport fighting.

So what is it good for? what it was intended, self improvement for the most part.

There are some uses/application I believe for folks that might need to confront or detain people such as police or military. However, for civilians, I'd say that for the most part the applications based on risk/return are simply not there.

The key to understanding and judging aikido and all arts is to establish the endstate and purpose of your training first.

Do understand your definition of fight??? Is it Sport, or is it something like a bar room brawl...which I submit is also a sport based on a clash of egos fueled alcohol, the drive for sex, and male prowness in which the endstate is not serious physical injury or death, but simply to "beat" the other guy and avoid damage to yourself.
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Old 09-14-2005, 06:18 PM   #60
Pankration90
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Your assumption is that most fighitng involves punches. Maybe in some fights, but what got you to that point that you need to either trade blows or defend against blows? Lets explore that first.
Awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation aren't 'fighting'. They can certainly help you prevent a fight, but I was talking about someone training to get better at actually fighting.

I'm mainly talking about physically defending yourself against a single person, a street fight, or a barroom brawl situation. I agree with you that a street fight/barroom brawl is a sport, but I think contest is a better word.
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Old 09-15-2005, 12:19 AM   #61
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

If one defines "martial art" as studying fighting techniques or strategies for combat situations, you`re gonna leave out a lot of martial arts. Iaido and Kyudo, to name two, have no practical application yet are rightly considered martial arts. In my opinion, those who think Aikido is not complete and in need of crosstraining are looking at Aikido as a fighting method, something that it is generally not. If one does look at it in that way, there is a strong possibility that that person will never understand what Aikido truly is, which is a "Budo," a method of developing ourselves as better people USING martial arts practice.

This does not mean that one can not use aikido practice as a part of practical physical conflict training. In this case one must look elsewhere or expand training as David Valadez has done. (see the grappling clips on his website.) I have never seen anyone argue that aikido is the end all be all of practical self defense, the argument that aikido (or judo or kendo, or DRAJ, etc) is complete means that it is complete as a Budo.

Charles
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Old 09-15-2005, 08:16 AM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Nice post Charles. There are so many assumptions that fit into a topic like this. It makes it difficult to give a one size fits all kind of answer. This is why I personally think it is important to leave room for individual expression, exploration, and development.

Cross-training will always be debated, both from the viewpoint of Aikido as Budo and Aikido as Martial Art.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-15-2005, 10:51 AM   #63
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I agree with you Phillip, contest is a much better word. I would contend with you based on your definition that aikido is not well suited for this type of contest.

I do think that judging aikido from that point of view as being ineffectual as a martial art to be wrong and really pointless. In this situtation, aikido works well since the philosophy tends to center around conflict resolutoin and deescalation and not entering into the fight...in this per view aikido is 100% perfect in my book.

Excellent discussion!

Also I like your comments Charles!

It is wonderful when we can have an intelligent conversation and get to the core of the symantics. Phillip does not consider avoidance as fighting, I do.

I think this is why we seem to have so many arguments on here, simply over perspective and symantics! I agree with your assessment within the confines of your definition and parameters Phillip!
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Old 09-15-2005, 04:12 PM   #64
Aristeia
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Nice post Charles. I see various arts as sitting on a specturm. Akido gives me some tools to physcally protect myself in the midst of an altercation and a bunch of tools for other stuff. BJJ gives me some really great tools for the altercation and some other stuff. They round each other out so I'm getting everything, but although one is more geared to "develeopment" and one to "fighting" they do both have some overlap in this area.
The only thing I disagreed with is that you said you've never seen anyone arguing that Aikido is the end all for practical self defence. Sadly if you you think about some of the treads that have been active over the past few months you'll realise that's not the case.

But although these debates continue to crop up we should take a moment and consider how lucky we are to be training in the modern era. We have access to a huge variety of arts and viewpoints. By and large we have a freedom to investigate a range of them without being disowned and shunned by other schools. If I could just get someone to pay me to train and drop that pesky employment thing, everything would be perfect.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-16-2005, 03:07 AM   #65
Mike Fugate
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Exclamation Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Hey,
Interesting thread, I have been reading it and I would like to make a comment on my personal experiences. I train in multiple martial arts, from the same teacher. O-Mei Kung Fu, Shorei Goju-Ryu Karate, and Aikido, and I find that they are all the same in a way. I know they all have different techniques, but The circular movements in KungFu, and the blocks in both Karate and Kung Fu have given me a better understanding of Aikido. At first I struggled, wanted to learn Aikido so bad, but after a while, by accident, I realized the more I worked on Blocks and Strikes from Kung Fu and Karate, the easier it became to redirect an oppenent with out actually striking them. My Sifu told me after I made this personal discovery that this is what he hoped I realized and it is best to allow a person to eventually make their own discoveries, that way they know with understanding. The concepts of Qi in Shaolin and O-Mei element theory ect.. all gave me a better knowledge of the softness, and power of Aikido. Now when in training, I never plan on using a style, they all come out together, they are more less blended. But the instinct is more and more becoming natural the longer I study. Iono, just my thoguhts on "cross training"

Last edited by Mike Fugate : 09-16-2005 at 03:18 AM.

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Old 09-16-2005, 02:57 PM   #66
aikigirl10
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
If one defines "martial art" as studying fighting techniques or strategies for combat situations, you`re gonna leave out a lot of martial arts. Iaido and Kyudo, to name two, have no practical application yet are rightly considered martial arts. In my opinion, those who think Aikido is not complete and in need of crosstraining are looking at Aikido as a fighting method, something that it is generally not. If one does look at it in that way, there is a strong possibility that that person will never understand what Aikido truly is, which is a "Budo," a method of developing ourselves as better people USING martial arts practice.

This does not mean that one can not use aikido practice as a part of practical physical conflict training. In this case one must look elsewhere or expand training as David Valadez has done. (see the grappling clips on his website.) I have never seen anyone argue that aikido is the end all be all of practical self defense, the argument that aikido (or judo or kendo, or DRAJ, etc) is complete means that it is complete as a Budo.

Charles

Like i stated in my first post that responded to you (and u completely ignored my points) is that aikido is not the only martial art that focuses on things like this. And you said it too as you can see above.

The difference is, there are effective martial arts that also teach good morals and focus on working to make yourself a better person. Im not saying that Aikido isnt effective, im saying , self defense wise, that aikido doesnt cover everything. Budo wise? maybe. But i'm sure there is more to be learned somewhere.

But do u see what i'm getting at? It is possible to want to learn both self defense AND how to be a better person. At which point people may choose to step outside Aikido and explore everything else thats out there. Personally this is why i chose to start crosstraining. I found another martial art that taught a different kind of fighting style but still incorporated good morals, ki (in this case qi, same thing tho) and how to further yourself as an individual. And that martial art is Shaolin Kung fu. And i find that it goes along with aikido quite nicely in almost all aspects.

Hope this makes things clearer.
Paige
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Old 09-17-2005, 05:52 AM   #67
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
and u completely ignored my points
wow, cant get anything past u can i
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Old 09-17-2005, 07:26 AM   #68
aikigirl10
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

how original^^

It sux that you cant think for yourself.
I guess if you ever thought of something to say it would die of loneliness.

Last edited by aikigirl10 : 09-17-2005 at 07:30 AM. Reason: need to add
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Old 09-17-2005, 10:34 AM   #69
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Not sure how this is now relating to the thread at hand. Tenkan, anyone?

Paul
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Old 09-17-2005, 11:06 AM   #70
aikigirl10
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

well if Charles would respond to the things im trying to point out to him instead of dodging the fact that i might have a good point then maybe we could get somewhere
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Old 09-21-2005, 08:24 AM   #71
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=258

is an excellent interview with a prominent aikido instructor that has many points relevant to this thread. I highly recommend it.

Paige, I'm not sure why you are taking offense to Charles' statements. Could you clarify? Often these kinds of discussions don't involve a 'yes, points a,b, and e, I agree with, the others I question' type of call and response. They tend to be much less formal. Just a part of the environment.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-21-2005, 07:32 PM   #72
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=258

is an excellent interview with a prominent aikido instructor that has many points relevant to this thread. I highly recommend it.

Paige, I'm not sure why you are taking offense to Charles' statements. Could you clarify? Often these kinds of discussions don't involve a 'yes, points a,b, and e, I agree with, the others I question' type of call and response. They tend to be much less formal. Just a part of the environment.

Best,
Ron
lol, charles is no where near offending me... im simply trying to point out things that he may not realize. If he chooses not to respond then fine. I was just trying to show him how Aikido is not the only martial art that works on the things that he was talking about. There was absolutely no offense taken by anything.

And i realize that this environment is informal , i was simply trying to make conversation.
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Old 09-21-2005, 09:47 PM   #73
Shannon Frye
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Crosstraining is a bad idea for priests....not for martial artists. As a crosstrainer in several arts, I strongly recommend seeing whats going on "on the other side of the fence". Whether an art compliments what you are already doing, or is a total opposite, ANY knowledge you get is worth the time spent looking into it. Even if all you get out of trying an art is "It's not for me".

As for the comparison of jujitsu and aikido, Ive heard it put like this...
Aikido will teach you to send an opponent flying.
Jujitsu will send them flying too, but you keep the arm as a souvinere.

Jujitsu (and I know I'll get hammered for this) as the parent art to judo and Aikido incorporates movements of both. The judo is much more hard contact (with the floor), but as with jujitsu/Aikido, the best judo moves are done not with force, but with use of balance and leverage. When Ive trained in either, some of my best throws were when I was too tired to put any force into it.

Give it a try. You may hate it - you may love it. You'll never know till you try.

Shannon
ps. Anyone Iv'e ever met who says "don't crosstrain", never has.
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Old 09-21-2005, 10:05 PM   #74
Shannon Frye
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

In further reading the threads, it strikes me how people tend to view fighting as a totally avoidable thing, and that Aikido will teach you how to avoid it. I can understand that de-escalation is important in avoiding conflict, but you can't simple label a fight as "sport" or "bar room brawl". Not everyone who in intending to "fight with you" is a drunken boozer who can't stand on his own too feet. It's almost as if people have a dicotamy of what a fight is.
I've got a college degree in counseling that can help me deescalate a situation if possible, but I want to knwo that my martial art will cover my butt if I need it. There's only so much control you have over a situation. If they intend to do you harm, and you have to protect yourself, all this religious sounding "give peace a chance" stuff will land you in the hospital.

I dont mean for this to sound demeaning, but are most aikidokas really that removed from reality to think that they can just "aware" themselves out of any conflict? A karate guy knows not to let em get too close, a BJJ guy knows not to let them get too far away, - what does the aikido guy think? It aint gonna happen to me? " Random assault victim of a group of teen could NEVER happen to me, I'm too aware for that." "Carjack attempt at the local mall? I never go to THOSE kinda places, so I avoid that kind of thing". I dont get it.

Shannon
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Old 09-22-2005, 12:29 AM   #75
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Hi Shannon,

I`d like to respond to a couple of your points. I think it is obvious that some of those who say don`t crosstrain have never done it. The word crosstrain, from what I understand, comes from the idea that doing one sport probably does not cover the whole spectrum of exercise, so it might be a good idea to do a complimentary sport. To crosstrain in martial arts might then be seen as a way for making up for the inadequecies of one martial art. For us to discuss whether crosstraining is good or not, we have to agree on a definition of crosstraining.

Second, we have to agree on the purpose of doing martial arts, right? I personally think that any so called martial art is close to useless to practice as a means of self-protection, meaning physical safety. I fully realize that many disagree with me, and that`s totally cool. To reply to your second post, I would like to point out that statisically the odds of an individual being attacked by a stranger are incredibly remote in North America and even remoter (is that a word?) in Japan, where I live. These remote odds can be reduced much more easily by checking out websites such as nononsenseselfdefense.com and reading books like "the Gift of Fear" then by wasting time in martial arts practice.

I think that crosstraining is generally a bad idea. Also, I practice Iaido and Systema in addition to Aikido. I also "play BJJ" with friends. I consider all of them complete and I enjoy doing all of them. I don`t think any of them is in need of "crosstraining."

Charles
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