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Old 09-02-2005, 12:14 PM   #1
Pdella
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yet another annoying cross training q

So I'm getting a paycheck and a little free time soon and I've decided to pick up a second art. Due to location, time, etc., I've narrowed it down to two choices: Danzan Ryu Jujitsu and Judo (at the YMCA). Now, I will probably end up going to both classes at least once each to get a sense of how they are run, and will base most of my decision on that. But since yall are experts, I also wanted to throw it out to you folk.

I read all the old threads about Judo and Aikido, so I have a sense of how that works, ie Judo is more grappling, groundwork, and throwing, more useful when you are closer to your opponent, and more "real" or "rougher." I don't know much about Jujitsu though. It looks like its kinda similar, there are locks and groundwork, etc. Not sure about much more than that.

Any advice on which to take as a secondary martial art?
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:29 PM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Take the judo. It's not that the Danzan ryu won't have effective technique...but I don't believe they use the randori system of judo...and the biggest benefit there will be the randori. If you practice a cooperative model martial art, and you want a secondary art, look for something either historically related or something that offers a non-cooperative model. In my opinion, of course. Both would be sweet...but I don't think you'll find both.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-02-2005, 12:33 PM   #3
Mark Uttech
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Don't bother cross training. That is just another desire for some sort of 'shortcut'. There are no shortcuts.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:37 PM   #4
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Intersting...you just read his mind over the internet?? Neat trick!

Pehaps I should soften my sarcasm by illucidating my own motivations for what cross-training I do.

I found myself not really getting my main style of aikido. There was something missing in my approach to the art, and I wasn't sure how to fix it. "train more/harder/different teacher" didn't seem to be the issue. Along with that, I was getting older, and rougher just wasn't an answer.

On top of that my knees have been becoming increasingly problematic. I had to find ways to train to get better at training...and change the mode I had been in for some years.

On top of that, I was in the midst of a dojo change.

It was more than my earlier motivation to seek out the historical roots of aikido (Daito ryu) even though I find that an acceptable reason for cross-training in and of itself. I really needed (and need) to focus on moving, holding, using my body differently. And it wasn't that I hadn't been told to do that, or wasn't trying. It just wasn't working very well. So I took some time to train with a mid to high ranking instructor in a much 'softer' style of aikido. It made a world of difference, and it jumped my ability in my regular style. Not a short cut...a way past what seemed to be an impasse.

I believe that other people might just have similar, or completely disimilar motives for cross training that have nothing to do with 'short cuts'. To assume that 'short cuts' is all they want, seems rather derogatory to me.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 09-02-2005 at 12:47 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:46 PM   #5
Dan Herak
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I agree with Ron on the main point he made - look for the art that has a competitive form of randori. I am using the word competitive broadly, not simply in a sports context. In aikido randori, uke attacks and nage counters the attack with an aikido movement. In judo, the uke/nage distinction is meaningless. Both people have the opportunity to be uke and/or nage based on what happens. It is a whole different ballgame when you are not only trying to throw a reluctant training partner but the partner is trying to do the same to you at the same time. I do not know if Danzan Ryu Jujitsu has this but it would be the thing I watch for most. I cross train with taihojutsu, a combination of judo, kendo and other things thrown in that is used by Japanese police forces. My sensei is explicit that the free practice of judo and kendo is a big reason why he teaches both.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:46 PM   #6
Paul D. Smith
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Don't bother cross training. That is just another desire for some sort of 'shortcut'. There are no shortcuts.
Mark: I'm of the same mind.
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:18 PM   #7
Budd
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I think it depends on what your goals are . . .

Are you interested in learning and practicing an artform? How long have you been doing aikido? Is effectiveness a primary concern?

Depending on your goals for training, it may make a lot of sense, as others have noted, to train in an environment where you can get some resistance-based randori/shiai.

A word of caution, though, I don't really recommend trying to learn, wholesale, another martial art if you're just starting in aikido as, initially, the body mechanics and training goals may seem to conflict (not to mention the ukemi can be different enough to make you frustrated AND crap at both if you're just starting out and trying to make sense of it all).

Also, depending on how much time you have to dedicate yourself to training, if you only visit one place once each week, you're not likely to really get anywhere in either system (in terms of getting the transmission, muscle-memory and intangible "stuff" that comes from budo).

Assuming you're convinced you want to do two systems, have time to give both plenty of attention and have a good base in aikido already:

Are you looking to continue to primarily practice kata? Then Danzan Ryu might be a better fit as the schools I've visited typically follow this model of practice more closely than the judo schools I've trained at.

Are you looking for effectiveness as quickly as possible? Good judo players are all-around tough folks. I, personally, think a combination of kata (aikido) and shiai (judo) makes for great well-roundedness in terms of purity of form and the ability to mix-it-up. If you have time for both then that's probably the course I'd take.

Also, my caveat is that I'm writing using a lot of generalities. If we're sticking with the aikido is a path metaphor, though, while I agree there aren't any shortcuts to the destination that practically nobody reaches (YMMV), I don't think there's anything wrong with taking detours to explore different scenario (or even mode of transport), so long as you keep making progress on the path.
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:36 PM   #8
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Just my personal choice, but if I had the extra time to cross train, I think I would try to find another Aikido Dojo in the area and see how two schools would work.
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:57 PM   #9
Aristeia
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Listen to Ron, don't listen to Mark.
Judo will do you well, the randori will give you delivery system that will actually make your aikido effective. By contrast, from what I know of Danzan Ryu, the techniques will be similar yet different enough to potentially confuse the whole thing. In the hypothetical confrontation you may find yourself vacillating between which version of an outside wrist turn you are doing. With Judo it's clear, at this range I'm doing Aikido, at this range I'm doing judo.

But as you say the atmosphere and dojo culture should go a long way to your decision as well.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:23 PM   #10
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

agree with Ron.

There are many shortcuts...it depends on what your goals are.

The hard part is spending years studying MA and finding out that what you originally start for is much different than what your goals are 20 years from now! For that process, there are no shortcuts...it is called LIFE and it happens along the way while you are studying!

However, if you have a particular focus/goal in mind...then yes there are many ways to approach your method of study such as cross training that will be time better spent than performing an art that is very much align with traditions, culture, and ettiquette such as aikido...which BTW are very important to aikido...if that is your goal!

Good luck on your journey!
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:48 PM   #11
Aristeia
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

good post Kevin. Some of the "don't bother cross training" I would understand if the question was "should I cross train". It wasn't. This is someone that has made that decision already and is just looking for guidance on what to take up. It kind of stuns me that people think they know more about his motivations than he does.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:58 PM   #12
Devon Natario
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I think some people are off topic here.

In my opinion you should try both and see what compliments your style of training.

I personally try to find something that is not so similar. In Aikido we didn't do much ground fighting, so I loved BJJ or Jujitsu. You have to remember that most arts stem from Jujitsu, even Judo. Judo is the Jujitsu in a different form.

I personally would go with Jujitsu because it has more to offer than Judo, depending on the teacher. What is noce about Judo is that you get to compete, but most Jujitsu practitioners also compete.

On a daily basis my classes compete against one another and use the tehcniques I teach them.

Anyways, either way, you won't go wrong. It all depends on what "you" want.

Devon Natario
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:05 PM   #13
aikigirl10
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Don't bother cross training. That is just another desire for some sort of 'shortcut'. There are no shortcuts.

Hate to break your heart, but aikido doesnt cover everything. Some people want to further their knowledge, not take a short cut to being able to beat up someone. Of course there are ppl like that but what give u that idea about Peter.

Cross training to me is great. There are other great styles out there. Aikido is awesoem, no doubt , but that doesnt mean its better than everything else. I've always wanted to do Judo, just because its so competetive, and im a very competetive person.

Im sure you know whats best for you Peter. Dont listen to ppl like mark. Chances are they havent looked in to other styles to see what they are all about , they are just stuck in their ways.

Good luck
Paige
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Old 09-02-2005, 05:04 PM   #14
Chris Li
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Don't bother cross training. That is just another desire for some sort of 'shortcut'. There are no shortcuts.
Morihei Ueshiba crosstrained, so did Sokaku Takeda. For that matter, virtually all of the early students of Morihei Ueshiba crosstrained to some extent.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-02-2005, 06:19 PM   #15
aikigirl10
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Morihei Ueshiba crosstrained, so did Sokaku Takeda. For that matter, virtually all of the early students of Morihei Ueshiba crosstrained to some extent.

Best,

Chris
good point
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Old 09-05-2005, 09:38 AM   #16
Pdella
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

thanks for all the feedback. as for crosstraining being a "shortcut,' I see it differently, even though I haven't done it yet. I see Aikido as PART of a journey or path in my life, not the entire journey. When I read a book or talk to a friend or go to work, that's "crosstraining" for me. If lose my temper or do something stupid or betray someone's trust, then I feel like I've slipped in my life journey, just like if I was attacked and I was unable to protect myself.
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Old 09-05-2005, 12:16 PM   #17
Pdella
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

About my Aikido experience, I've been training for a little more than a year, right now only 2 days a week. I would likely do Judo/Jujitsu two days a week as well.
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Old 09-05-2005, 03:57 PM   #18
crbateman
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I am confident that crosstraining in Judo will make your Aikido better, and that should factor into your decision. The jujitsu might also help, but there is much variation in styles there.
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Old 09-06-2005, 12:12 AM   #19
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Mark Uttech is a long time Aikido practioner/teacher. He is highly respected in the US midwest area by all accounts. If it were just some newbie making comments, that would be one thing, however, judging by the tenor of all of Mark`s recent posts, he is offering advice in terms of his long experience. I hate to speak for Mark, but I would guess that if one were to really think about his comments and then still take up another art anyway, he would be pleased and/or satisfied.

Charles
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Old 09-06-2005, 10:07 AM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Hi Charles,

Quote:
That is just another desire for some sort of 'shortcut'.
Thanks for providing some context for Mark's statement. The problem is that the context doesn't really elucidate his comment much. No matter how much experience someone has, he still would not be capable of assigning motivations to someone else based upon the query I saw...especially not in such an apparently negative manner.

I know people who at one point didn't appreciate me going out of my way to go to seminars in other styles. They referred to me as a 'technique junkie'. Thankfully I ignored their rude assumptions, and continued to try to look deeper, to 'look under the hood' as it were, both in aikido and in other budo. I believe it has paid some significant dividends, though it has been at a cost.

Everything in life has a cost. Individuals must figure out how much they are willing to pay for any particular good, service or ideal. Personally, I think if Mark had provided more context himself, and less of a one liner, he might have not only been received better, he might have influenced the original poster more.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-07-2005, 12:28 AM   #21
Charles Hill
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Hi Ron,

I am not sure that what you are doing is "crosstraining." It sounds like what you are doing is trying to understand things at a deeper level. To me crosstraining is doing two or more things to make up for deficiencies in both. To me, aikido practice is doing martial arts to become a better person. (I guess that means I have to start training harder.) It is complete, if one is practicing in the correct way. For example, I think that to study bjj because Aikido doesn`t do groundwork is to miss the point of Aikido (and probably bjj.) If one wants to study more than one art because its fun, challenging, or to make more friends, then I say go for it. In this case, the word crosstraining doesn`t really apply.

Charles
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Old 09-07-2005, 06:49 AM   #22
Budd
 
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

What if you want to study bjj (in addition to aikido) because it's fun, challenging, to meet new people and to learn some groundwork?

Different goals in budo (martial effectiveness, learning how to use one's body, becoming better people, etc.) can mandate different paths up the mountain -- even if the end destination is the same -- the important thing being (IMO) that you are committed to walking the path -- and stick with it.

I think that to study bjj because your Aikido doesn't do groundwork could be a logical progression -- assuming three things: 1) You have a good base in aikido (subjective, yes, based on the person). 2) You want to learn groundwork. 3) Studying means you commit several years to the effort.

What I don't think is useful is . . . . studying a little aikido here to get some joint locks and throws . . . studying a little bjj to get some groundwork . . . studying a little escrima/arnis/kali to get some sticks and knives . . .

Eventually you'll just be a jack of all trades and master of sh*t.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:25 AM   #23
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote:
What if you want to study bjj (in addition to aikido) because it's fun, challenging, to meet new people and to learn some groundwork?

Different goals in budo (martial effectiveness, learning how to use one's body, becoming better people, etc.) can mandate different paths up the mountain -- even if the end destination is the same -- the important thing being (IMO) that you are committed to walking the path -- and stick with it.

I think that to study bjj because your Aikido doesn't do groundwork could be a logical progression -- assuming three things: 1) You have a good base in aikido (subjective, yes, based on the person). 2) You want to learn groundwork. 3) Studying means you commit several years to the effort.

What I don't think is useful is . . . . studying a little aikido here to get some joint locks and throws . . . studying a little bjj to get some groundwork . . . studying a little escrima/arnis/kali to get some sticks and knives . . .

Eventually you'll just be a jack of all trades and master of sh*t.
Budd - Excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly. I should apologize for my presupposition in my initial reply. I simply think that in any martial art, it takes years to deepen the experience to such an extent that it has been seized, and owned. And at that time, I fully agree, another "path up the mountain" may be useful to some.

I simply fear the mindset that shops around for bits and pieces, and agree with you that such a search will ultimately gain little.

Paul
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:33 AM   #24
Ron Tisdale
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

Quote:
I simply fear the mindset that shops around for bits and pieces, and agree with you that such a search will ultimately gain little.
I think we all could agree with that...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-07-2005, 03:05 PM   #25
Esaemann
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Re: yet another annoying cross training q

I won't argue that O'Sensei trained in different arts. Didn't he also say later that Aikido is all anybody should need (context?)? I assume as a martial art. Is anybody familiar with that idea from O'Sensei? I could be wrong.
Anyway, I'm going to start Bagua tonight. Read a book from someone who studied both Bagua and Aikido under O'Sensei (BK Frantzis). He saw similarities between the two. One way was in Bagua's changing with the situation rather than forcing the situation against the opponent.
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